Union's Loss, Leagues Gain?

[greenBV4]

You wouldn't even need to set up a draft system if you didn't want too. You could just allow the clubs to offer the attendees of the combines contracts.

The AFL draft gets a fair bit of attention and is a tv product, I don't think the NRL should adopt one but having a partial draft for international talent could be a somewhat exciting/interesting compromise

But yeah, you wouldn't NEED one

 

[ReddFelon]

I just think you assume a higher level of capability and interest from the bloke than he's actually got. Part of me would also curious to see what it would look like for him to take over the game, but to date the "rapid rugby" nonsense he came up with doesn't inspire me with much hope.

In truth, what did he really do there? He stitched together a bunch of offcuts of the sport that no one wanted or cared much for and the result was a mickey mouse competition that no one watched, took seriously or cared about in the Rugby world.

He basically created it to keep the Force on life support, and if that's his crowning achievement, then the game's standards need to be higher if it wants to do anything more than limp along like it has for the past decade. If Twiggy wants to really revive Union, he'll need to go to war with the AFL on the east coast, and I just don't see that happening.

Incorrect, he got a whole bunch of Asian investors on board and did something RA hasn't been able to do which is get World Rugby to listen to him.

Regarding Andrew Forrest as someone I know beyond his media entity, he's a lifetime member of the Perth-Bayswater Rugby Club. Rapid Rugby stalled only because of Covid, it was going into its first season, his work did enough that RA needed to invite the Force back into Super Rugby AU because Foxtel wouldn't touch it without WA represented as the Rugby ratings in WA outrank that of Melbourne.

But if you need full details of what he's accomplished, since 2018 his RugbyRoos program (Union equivalent of Auskick) went from 4 camps, to every Perth Premiership club running the 5 week entry programs and holiday clinics. As well as the three biggest country rugby regions Bunbury, Geraldton and Kalgoorlie each getting the junior entry programs 3 times a year.

Rugby Roos is now also being booked out as a service to primary schools to get students engaged, on top of his funding that PR pointed out for grassroots, he's committed a further 5 million to schools rugby, currently in WA there are two major schools competitions the PSA Brother Redmond Cup (WA's equivalent to GPS schools) and the Combined Schools Competition, each field 7 teams. His goal for school participation is for the CSC to be expanded to 16 schools over the next three years. Currently some of the CSC schools like Aranmore and John XXIII have produced players like Curtis Rona, Chance Peni, etc. who have had success in both union and league.

This is the first time in WA's history that someone with pockets this deep has ever actively invested into either Rugby code and it's working, the Perth premiership expanded to 14 teams in 2018 and now, the 4 expansion teams are fielding up to 4 grades of seniors and they're competitive against clubs like Nedlands and Associates who've had 80+ year histories and dominant clubs.

WA has the equal highest female participation alongside NSW, the third highest male participation and per capita the highest male participation. I don't think you quite get just how much the NRL has f**ked up by letting old mate "Rusted on AFL states" run his mouth.

 

[RoosTah]

Incorrect, he got a whole bunch of Asian investors on board and did something RA hasn't been able to do which is get World Rugby to listen to him.

Regarding Andrew Forrest as someone I know beyond his media entity, he's a lifetime member of the Perth-Bayswater Rugby Club. Rapid Rugby stalled only because of Covid, it was going into its first season, his work did enough that RA needed to invite the Force back into Super Rugby AU because Foxtel wouldn't touch it without WA represented as the Rugby ratings in WA outrank that of Melbourne.

But if you need full details of what he's accomplished, since 2018 his RugbyRoos program (Union equivalent of Auskick) went from 4 camps, to every Perth Premiership club running the 5 week entry programs and holiday clinics. As well as the three biggest country rugby regions Bunbury, Geraldton and Kalgoorlie each getting the junior entry programs 3 times a year.

Rugby Roos is now also being booked out as a service to primary schools to get students engaged, on top of his funding that PR pointed out for grassroots, he's committed a further 5 million to schools rugby, currently in WA there are two major schools competitions the PSA Brother Redmond Cup (WA's equivalent to GPS schools) and the Combined Schools Competition, each field 7 teams. His goal for school participation is for the CSC to be expanded to 16 schools over the next three years. Currently some of the CSC schools like Aranmore and John XXIII have produced players like Curtis Rona, Chance Peni, etc. who have had success in both union and league.

This is the first time in WA's history that someone with pockets this deep has ever actively invested into either Rugby code and it's working, the Perth premiership expanded to 14 teams in 2018 and now, the 4 expansion teams are fielding up to 4 grades of seniors and they're competitive against clubs like Nedlands and Associates who've had 80+ year histories and dominant clubs.

WA has the equal highest female participation alongside NSW, the third highest male participation and per capita the highest male participation. I don't think you quite get just how much the NRL has f**ked up by letting old mate "Rusted on AFL states" run his mouth.

We'll never know how GRR would have faired over a longer period, but its ratings were pretty meagre in its first iteration last year, which wasn't surprising given it always looked like a frankenstein job designed as a life support system for the Force with no long term plan. It didn't include a single club of note from Super Rugby in Aus, and frankly in Australia without NSW and Qld no one really cared, and outside of Aus without the kiwi sides it didn't offer much for the neutral.

With regard to his investments in WA more broadly, like I said before, it all ultimately sounds like a great feeder system for the NRL once they get a club there. Again, at the end of the day, a boost in the grassroots in WA is great and all, but what does it do to solve the fundamental issues facing rugby in Australia? Nothing. The game is still structurally a complete mess that is totally reliant on pay TV and with diminishing tribal followings amongst even its strongest and oldest identities like the Waratahs and Reds.

I'm genuinely curious though, if you do honestly know Twiggy "beyond his media identity", do you think he'd ever have helped Rugby League? Before V'Landys came in the NRL started committing to hosting more events in Perth and sent overtures there to prepare the ground. My understanding was that the WARL and Pirates both approached him with little success. Is it possible he's just part of the old elbow patch brigade that think they're too good to support Rugby League?

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

That already happens, both with our RU converts and with players who have played RL their whole life. For example, Sonny Bill Williams, Ben Teo, Semi Radradra have all gone and played RU overseas recently. Some end up coming back, like Sonny Bill and Ben Teo, others leave forever, but they get replaced, e.g. Parra have Sivo now and they're doing just fine. The idea would be you keep scouting for players on the cheap, you let go the ones who start asking for European RU money and you replace them with new blood.

My point is if they're from an RU background and country that discriminates against RL then what incentive is there for them to choose our sport?

It costs money sending scouts overseas to identify and bring back talent on Visas, with no guarantee they will ever develop into solid RL players.

LOL, players are employees not slaves!

I don't see how this is any different to what happens now when a player switches codes or professions. If they want to go home or ply their trade somewhere else then good luck to them, we do what we always do when that happens and move on to someone else.

No one is saying players are slaves. The point is if they're from an RU country that doesn't play RL then their main ambition will be to play RU, as it will provide them with the opportunity to play for their country and for a club in a competition closer to home.

A kid born and raised in Queensland watching RL will more likely than not want to play RL over RU because he sees Origin and the Kangaroos as the pinnacle.

If they haven't played RL before then they will need to learn from scratch. That's a lot of investment for some one who could bail at any moment.

There's also the issue of having to get a Visa and work for anyone new to the country. This can be difficult if they don't speak English.

 

[Perth Red]

We'll never know how GRR would have faired over a longer period, but its ratings were pretty meagre in its first iteration last year, which wasn't surprising given it always looked like a frankenstein job designed as a life support system for the Force with no long term plan. It didn't include a single club of note from Super Rugby in Aus, and frankly in Australia without NSW and Qld no one really cared, and outside of Aus without the kiwi sides it didn't offer much for the neutral.

With regard to his investments in WA more broadly, like I said before, it all ultimately sounds like a great feeder system for the NRL once they get a club there. Again, at the end of the day, a boost in the grassroots in WA is great and all, but what does it do to solve the fundamental issues facing rugby in Australia? Nothing. The game is still structurally a complete mess that is totally reliant on pay TV and with diminishing tribal followings amongst even its strongest and oldest identities like the Waratahs and Reds.

I'm genuinely curious though, if you do honestly know Twiggy "beyond his media identity", do you think he'd ever have helped Rugby League? Before V'Landys came in the NRL started committing to hosting more events in Perth and sent overtures there to prepare the ground. My understanding was that the WARL and Pirates both approached him with little success. Is it possible he's just part of the old elbow patch brigade that think they're too good to support Rugby League?

hes a union man, why on earth would he back league? Be like suggesting storm should have got Eddie McGuire to back them! What his jnr spending does is pose the risk of all the kids to league clubs totally drying up and all tne great work of the last ten years starting jnr clubs around the state going down the drain. Nrl had its chance to expand into PERTH and blew it, then Vlandys spouted off and we run the risk of being back to where we were twenty years ago when the game was dead in the water here. Oh well no one ever accused RL of being a go ahead game.

 

[reanimate]

My point is if they're from an RU background and country that discriminates against RL then what incentive is there for them to choose our sport?

It costs money sending scouts overseas to identify and bring back talent on Visas, with no guarantee they will ever develop into solid RL players.

Money and a shot at playing sport professionally. We're not talking about buying the equivalent of a Dan Carter in their prime, the idea is you go and pick out players who are playing (using South Africa as an example) in the Currie Cup, or even lower divisions and competitions- uni teams, school tournaments etc.
If they're stuck behind a bunch of other players in their respective positions at home and a scout from overseas is offering them a contract to have a shot at playing professionally and getting paid in Australian dollars, it's instantly very attractive. The Rand is worth nothing and it's an instant chance to raise their profile as a player.

We already send our bureaucracy on 'fact finding missions' overseas, i.e. what are basically holidays where they go and watch, for example, NFL and NBA and meet a few of their equivalents in those organisations. It really wouldn't cost that much to send scouts to countries like South Africa and it would probably be a lot more productive.

No one is saying players are slaves. The point is if they're from an RU country that doesn't play RL then their main ambition will be to play RU, as it will provide them with the opportunity to play for their country and for a club in a competition closer to home.

A kid born and raised in Queensland watching RL will more likely than not want to play RL over RU because he sees Origin and the Kangaroos as the pinnacle.

If they haven't played RL before then they will need to learn from scratch. That's a lot of investment for some one who could bail at any moment.

That's always a danger, but there's also a chance they end up really love playing League and raise the profile of League back in their home country if they become famous for playing it.

Not playing RL before isn't the biggest concern if they're an RU player, there's a lot of transferrable skills. Each game has its own nuances and specific skills, that's true, but skilled players would pick those skills up quickly enough.

 

[ReddFelon]

We'll never know how GRR would have faired over a longer period, but its ratings were pretty meagre in its first iteration last year, which wasn't surprising given it always looked like a frankenstein job designed as a life support system for the Force with no long term plan. It didn't include a single club of note from Super Rugby in Aus, and frankly in Australia without NSW and Qld no one really cared, and outside of Aus without the kiwi sides it didn't offer much for the neutral.

With regard to his investments in WA more broadly, like I said before, it all ultimately sounds like a great feeder system for the NRL once they get a club there. Again, at the end of the day, a boost in the grassroots in WA is great and all, but what does it do to solve the fundamental issues facing rugby in Australia? Nothing. The game is still structurally a complete mess that is totally reliant on pay TV and with diminishing tribal followings amongst even its strongest and oldest identities like the Waratahs and Reds.

I'm genuinely curious though, if you do honestly know Twiggy "beyond his media identity", do you think he'd ever have helped Rugby League? Before V'Landys came in the NRL started committing to hosting more events in Perth and sent overtures there to prepare the ground. My understanding was that the WARL and Pirates both approached him with little success. Is it possible he's just part of the old elbow patch brigade that think they're too good to support Rugby League?

No he never would've supported Rugby League in Western Australia. Andrew is a Hale School Old Boy. Hale is part of the 7 PSA schools, alongside my high school Aquinas College. The PSA has the best and most competitive Rugby Union and AFL school teams in the entire state (Buddy Franklin, Ben Cousins, etc. close to 1/3rd of the professional AFL players from WA). As I said, he's a lifetime member of Perth-Bayswater one of the oldest Rugby clubs in WA.

Keep in mind, this is the same person who has said and offered directly to fund all of these same initiatives that are currently WA only across the entire country to the tune of about $70 million. It was only a few months ago that he was talking with the new RA Chairman about supporting national grassroots and the creation of new pathways that broaden beyond the traditional elite school systems. Views on codes aside, he has the midas touch, he takes struggling cattle stations and turns them into export trade leaders, mining minnows into direct competitors with Rio Tinto and BHP, etc. He's like Gene Simmons in terms of figuring out what people will support a split second before his rivals and he capitalises on it big time.

 

[Perth Red]

No he never would've supported Rugby League in Western Australia. Andrew is a Hale School Old Boy. Hale is part of the 7 PSA schools, alongside my high school Aquinas College. The PSA has the best and most competitive Rugby Union and AFL school teams in the entire state (Buddy Franklin, Ben Cousins, etc. close to 1/3rd of the professional AFL players from WA). As I said, he's a lifetime member of Perth-Bayswater one of the oldest Rugby clubs in WA.

Keep in mind, this is the same person who has said and offered directly to fund all of these same initiatives that are currently WA only across the entire country to the tune of about $70 million. It was only a few months ago that he was talking with the new RA Chairman about supporting national grassroots and the creation of new pathways that broaden beyond the traditional elite school systems. Views on codes aside, he has the midas touch, he takes struggling cattle stations and turns them into export trade leaders, mining minnows into direct competitors with Rio Tinto and BHP, etc. He's like Gene Simmons in terms of figuring out what people will support a split second before his rivals and he capitalises on it big time.

Sadly RA giving the Force the arse could be the worse thing to ever happen to RL in WA (except maybe SL). Twiggy didn't seem that interested in Union until RA made it personal and a WA exclusion thing. Now hes throwing more money at it here than NRL is spending nationally on Jnrs!
Doesnt bode well for the NRLWA sadly.

 

[Welsh RL & RU watcher]

He's like Gene Simmons in terms of figuring out what people will support a split second before his rivals and he capitalises on it big time.

Uh? Gene Jew? Lol. As a matter of interest is A Forrest Jewish?

 

[RoosTah]

No he never would've supported Rugby League in Western Australia. Andrew is a Hale School Old Boy. Hale is part of the 7 PSA schools, alongside my high school Aquinas College. The PSA has the best and most competitive Rugby Union and AFL school teams in the entire state (Buddy Franklin, Ben Cousins, etc. close to 1/3rd of the professional AFL players from WA). As I said, he's a lifetime member of Perth-Bayswater one of the oldest Rugby clubs in WA.

Keep in mind, this is the same person who has said and offered directly to fund all of these same initiatives that are currently WA only across the entire country to the tune of about $70 million. It was only a few months ago that he was talking with the new RA Chairman about supporting national grassroots and the creation of new pathways that broaden beyond the traditional elite school systems.

Views on codes aside, he has the midas touch, he takes struggling cattle stations and turns them into export trade leaders, mining minnows into direct competitors with Rio Tinto and BHP, etc. He's like Gene Simmons in terms of figuring out what people will support a split second before his rivals and he capitalises on it big time.

I honestly wonder how long he’ll stay committed... I know a bloke that worked on his campaign to end slavery and he was ultimately very disheartened by his experience, saying that him and his team put in a tonne of work with key stakeholders across intergovernmental authorities and then at a certain point Twiggy checked out and lost interest, cutting funding to the program and leaving a lot of people stranded and burning a lot of bridges internationally in the process.

I’m not going to name names obviously, but the picture this person painted was of a guy who has a bit of a messiah complex, but ultimately is spread pretty thin and rapidly shifts priorities in a way that can leave a lot of people in these pet projects high and dry.

Having played and watched rugby for decades, I’m extremely familiar with it’s extremely deep problems, and hence my skepticism that he’ll have much long term impact. I just reckon that ultimately the game will end up in the too hard basket and he’ll get bored. It’s probably at that point that the NRL should look to step in and just recruit its players from the new structure in WA that Twiggy helped fund.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

Money and a shot at playing sport professionally. We're not talking about buying the equivalent of a Dan Carter in their prime, the idea is you go and pick out players who are playing (using South Africa as an example) in the Currie Cup, or even lower divisions and competitions- uni teams, school tournaments etc.
If they're stuck behind a bunch of other players in their respective positions at home and a scout from overseas is offering them a contract to have a shot at playing professionally and getting paid in Australian dollars, it's instantly very attractive. The Rand is worth nothing and it's an instant chance to raise their profile as a player.

We already send our bureaucracy on 'fact finding missions' overseas, i.e. what are basically holidays where they go and watch, for example, NFL and NBA and meet a few of their equivalents in those organisations. It really wouldn't cost that much to send scouts to countries like South Africa and it would probably be a lot more productive.

That's always a danger, but there's also a chance they end up really love playing League and raise the profile of League back in their home country if they become famous for playing it.

Not playing RL before isn't the biggest concern if they're an RU player, there's a lot of transferrable skills. Each game has its own nuances and specific skills, that's true, but skilled players would pick those skills up quickly enough.

Didn’t Easts or another club recruit some young South African to play in the centres or on the wing during the 2000s, only for him to end up signing with one of the Australian Super Rugby clubs a couple of years later?

Players are free to do as they wish, but if foreigners with an RU background habitually use RL as a feeder competition to enhance their profile so they can get an RU contract, then clubs will lose interest in recruiting them.

 

[reanimate]

Didn’t Easts or another club recruit some young South African to play in the centres or on the wing during the 2000s, only for him to end up signing with one of the Australian Super Rugby clubs a couple of years later?

Players are free to do as they wish, but if foreigners with an RU background habitually use RL as a feeder competition to enhance their profile so they can get an RU contract, then clubs will lose interest in recruiting them.

It happens with players born and bred here too, e.g. Craig Wing. Cross code movement has always happened. Here's another one- check out what Rugby Australia has paid for that kid Souths were putting through their system:

Joseph Suaalii Rugby Australia deal ‘madness from a game that’s broke’

After making one-third of their staff redundant in June, Rugby Australia has reportedly offered a 16-year-old “freak” a motza to switch codes.

Joseph Suaalii’s bombshell backflip has sent shockwaves across two codes after the teenage phenom reportedly turned his back on the NRL for a $3 million rugby deal.

Last month Suaalii agreed on a three-year, $1.7 million deal with the South Sydney Rabbitohs in the NRL, but the contract could not be registered until his 17th birthday in August.

In a stunning backflip, The Daily Telegraph has reported the 16-year-old is instead signing a $3 million, three-year deal with Rugby Australia, having caught their attention after dominating the GPS school rugby competition.

Suaalii is expected to make his Super Rugby debut for the New South Wales Waratahs later this season, and is on course to represent Australia in the Rugby Sevens at next year’s Tokyo Olympics and the 2023 Rugby World Cup in France.

The report forced Rugby Australia interim chief executive Rob Clarke into a quick denial.

“Joseph Suaalii is an upstanding young man and a talented rugby player, who has proven himself to be an exciting Rugby prospect for the future. We have made it no secret that we would like to keep Joseph within the Rugby pathway,” Clarke said.

“At this stage there has been no agreement between Joseph, his family or his representation. Rugby Australia continues to have an open and exciting conversation about his potential future in our game.

“Financial offers being speculated in the media presently are totally fanciful, and is being propagated by the usual suspects whose sole interest it is to inflate and misrepresent contract values.”

The shock announcement has received mixed responses from within the rugby community — although the 15-a-side game has been in desperate need of a win this year, many have questioned whether a teenager is worth that sum of money.

Furthermore, the $3 million paycheck could be considered reckless spending as Rugby Australia continued to recover from a dire financial situation. One-third of their staff were stood down amid the coronavirus epidemic, and players have been forced to accept hefty pay cuts.

Also, during this year’s Annual General Meeting, RA declared a preliminary $9.4 million loss for the 2019/20 financial year.

To make matters worse, RA is set to lose $15 million every year after reportedly rejecting a $25 million-per-year broadcast deal.

‘IT’S MADNESS FROM A GAME THAT’S BROKE’

Speaking on Fox League’s NRL 360, Daily Telegraph reporter Paul Crawley berated the seven-figure offer.

“It’s just madness; it’s madness from a game that’s broke,” Crawley said on Tuesday.

“Everyone that has seen this kid play in the GPS rugby competition says he is just a freak; he’s outstanding. He’s something seriously special.

“We’ve all been around long enough to see this sort of talent come along every so often, and that talent doesn’t always equate to a tremendous professional rugby league player.

“Kurtley Beale was a great example … everyone was chasing him. Did Kurtley Beale turn out to be that player?

“It’s a desperate attempt to try and save yourself.”

NRL 360 host Paul Kent also questioned whether RA had put their eggs in the wrong basket.

“Rugby is not renowned for making smart decisions as of late, and this is another one that is very questionable,” Kent said.

“To pay $1 million a year for a 16-year-old — and they’re going too fast-track him into the Waratahs. Word is, when he turns 17 in August, that he will make his Waratahs debut.

“Rugby’s been crying poor for the past six months. They’re stuffed up their broadcast deal — they’ve knocked back $25 million a year, and they’re now thinking of taking $10 million a year.

“They sit here, and they’re going to pay this sort of money in a game that’s getting scaled-down financially, it’s crazy.”

When asked for his two cents’ worth, veteran rugby league broadcaster Phil Gould lamented the sport’s dwindling youth program.

“Well done to all those at the NRL who voted to remove the National Youth Competition (NYC) from our Pathways Player Development Model,” Gould tweeted on Tuesday.

“After only a short period of time (as predicted) the impact on our game of abandoning the NYC has been significant.”

The Fijians who have been recruited to play here have done it too, e.g. Korobeite, Radradra, but the clubs who recruited them got some really good years out of them, sometimes at bargain prices. Clubs aren't going to stop recruiting Fijians because some of them go onto play RU, the same should go for other hotbeds of RU talent.

As an aside, that Rugby Australia deal perfectly encapsulates their idiocy. They're broke, they don't have a competition or tv deal sorted for the coming years, so what's a good use of their remaining money? Poaching an unproven teenager from the grips of Rugby League and putting him on insane money. That worked really, really well in the 2000s when they poached a bunch of RL players and put them on big money, Union's in a great place these days.

 

[ReddFelon]

Uh? Gene Jew? Lol. As a matter of interest is A Forrest Jewish?

Nope, just WA royalty. His family have been premiers, leaders in agriculture, etc. He's more akin to the WA equivalent of Richard Branson than anyone else, except twice as financially successful.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

It happens with players born and bred here too, e.g. Craig Wing. Cross code movement has always happened. Here's another one- check out what Rugby Australia has paid for that kid Souths were putting through their system:

The Fijians who have been recruited to play here have done it too, e.g. Korobeite, Radradra, but the clubs who recruited them got some really good years out of them, sometimes at bargain prices. Clubs aren't going to stop recruiting Fijians because some of them go onto play RU, the same should go for other hotbeds of RU talent.

As an aside, that Rugby Australia deal perfectly encapsulates their idiocy. They're broke, they don't have a competition or tv deal sorted for the coming years, so what's a good use of their remaining money? Poaching an unproven teenager from the grips of Rugby League and putting him on insane money. That worked really, really well in the 2000s when they poached a bunch of RL players and put them on big money, Union's in a great place these days.

Wingers from Fiji are a good buy. I'd prefer it if the clubs went up to PNG and brought a few of their best juniors to Australia for elite training. I reckon they have the potential to produce great halfbacks, 5/8s and dummy halves.