Vichy thread

[Coastbloke]

I wonder is President Macron is aware of the events of WWII Vichy?
Perhaps now would be a good time to strike and try and provide some sort of justice for the game and what happened. Return of property and compensation? If Macron is aware of the game but not it's history why not start at the top?

 

[Pommy]

I wonder is President Macron is aware of the events of WWII Vichy?
Perhaps now would be a good time to strike and try and provide some sort of justice for the game and what happened. Return of property and compensation? If Macron is aware of the game but not it's history why not start at the top?

I doubt it’s just league that suffered and it’s probably a political Pandora’s box no politician would open willingly.

 

[miguel de cervantes]

I wonder is President Macron is aware of the events of WWII Vichy?
Perhaps now would be a good time to strike and try and provide some sort of justice for the game and what happened. Return of property and compensation? If Macron is aware of the game but not it's history why not start at the top?

lol, no

 

[Disinterested third party]

I doubt it’s just league that suffered and it’s probably a political Pandora’s box no politician would open willingly.

Yeah lots of sports were banned from even competing at amateur level.

 

[Pommy]

Yeah lots of sports were banned from even competing at amateur level.

Yeah the Vichy government just selected rugby league as the only group or organisation they were going to target.

 

[Coastbloke]

Yeah the Vichy government just selected rugby league as the only group or organisation they were going to target.

That's actually an interesting question. Can anyone confirm whether other sports WERE persecuted or was it just rugby league.

It's also interesting to note that in the late 30s and early 40s League was gaining such traction in France, that it was becoming the nations 2nd sport after soccer. If we look at it through todays level of interest in France for the game it might not mean much. In that era though, League was genuinely threatening rugby as France's 2nd sport..

 

[Disinterested third party]

Yeah the Vichy government just selected rugby league as the only group or organisation they were going to target.

Union was responsible per the government report of 2002. No other sports had the likes of Pascot and Borotra gunning for them. I would learn something about the subject before commenting in the future.

 

[Pommy]

Union was responsible per the government report of 2002. No other sports had the likes of Pascot and Borotra gunning for them. I would learn something about the subject before commenting in the future.

But I’m talking about wider issues than sport. I never mentioned sport.
No politician is going to want to drag up what the Vichy government did unless they have to, do you think that’s a false statement?

 

[Pommy]

That's actually an interesting question. Can anyone confirm whether other sports WERE persecuted or was it just rugby league.

It's also interesting to note that in the late 30s and early 40s League was gaining such traction in France, that it was becoming the nations 2nd sport after soccer. If we look at it through todays level of interest in France for the game it might not mean much. In that era though, League was genuinely threatening rugby as France's 2nd sport..

As I said in my above I’m not just talking sport, the Vichy government were Nazi collaborators no politician will bring their crimes in to daylight and start handing property back off their own back. It’s a political nightmare that goes much further than sport.

 

[taipan]

Yeah the Vichy government just selected rugby league as the only group or organisation they were going to target.

They(rugby league) was the only sport ,that union lobbied the Vichy Govt to get removed .Union officials involvement ,was spelt out clearly in the French Govt commissioned 2002 reported findings of Sport under Vichy.There was no mention of union pushing for other codes to be banned.

It took about 50 years for League to regain the name Rugby in its name:Rugby league.
It took 70 years for the French Govt to allow access for rugby league into primary and high schools.

I note in the Guardian UK 23rd August 2018 relating to he Catalans victory at Wembley..

" The sport was booming in the years before the second world war, before the RUGBY UNION AUTHORITIES in France utilised a position of power within the Nazi Govt in the French region of Vichy to ban league across the entirety of the country."

The group if you like that selected rugby league was Vichy with a very big push along by Union authorities.Other codes were affected,but the other codes were not direct competitors of rugby union a threat to rugby union.
Whatever other sports were banned was of Vichy's only doing.

 

[Pommy]

They(rugby league) was the only sport ,that union lobbied the Vichy Govt to get removed .Union officials involvement ,was spelt out clearly in the French Govt commissioned 2002 reported findings of Sport under Vichy.There was no mention of union pushing for other codes to be banned.

It took about 50 years for League to regain the name Rugby in its name:Rugby league.
It took 70 years for the French Govt to allow access for rugby league into primary and high schools.

I note in the Guardian UK 23rd August 2018 relating to he Catalans victory at Wembley..

" The sport was booming in the years before the second world war, before the RUGBY UNION AUTHORITIES in France utilised a position of power within the Nazi Govt in the French region of Vichy to ban league across the entirety of the country."

The group if you like that selected rugby league was Vichy with a very big push along by Union authorities.Other codes were affected,but the other codes were not direct competitors of rugby union a threat to rugby union.
Whatever other sports were banned was of Vichy's only doing.

At which point did I mention sport?

 

[miguel de cervantes]

Sure, Vichy wasn't cool, but one must not overlook the fact that league probably peaked in the 50s.

The demise of league in france is mostly due to incompetence on its own behalf:

- not investing in youth comps and the like
- sticking with radio rather than going with tv because it may reduce gate takings
- infighting

This shouldn't surprise anyone.

 

[taipan]

At which point did I mention sport?

Rugby league is an organisation,a sporting organisation," the Vichy Govt just selecting rugby league as the only group or organisation targeted" Of course we understand that's not the case ,of course others were targeted.Left wing organisations etc.

My response was to highlight (as rugby league is an organisation) were targeted with the "push and shove" from Rugby Union authorities.The other groups or organisations whatever you wish to call them I submit ,did not have union assistance to ban them.
Nothing more to my point, nothing less.Call me pedantic so be it.

 

[taipan]

Sure, Vichy wasn't cool, but one must not overlook the fact that league probably peaked in the 50s.

The demise of league in france is mostly due to incompetence on its own behalf:

- not investing in youth comps and the like
- sticking with radio rather than going with tv because it may reduce gate takings
- infighting

This shouldn't surprise anyone.

I agree about incompetence of the French officialdom,when post war their National team was doing so well.
That being stated, the following did not help their plight either.
1) Lack of Government recognition,as only one code could have Rugby in its name.
2) Thus Govt grants were not forthcoming.
3) Rugby union paying players prior to full professionalism in 1995.Ability to poach rl players regularly plus offering them all he goodies that goes with recognition.
4) Unable to access primary and secondary schools until a couple of years ago.An analogy here, union would be dead in the water, if the Private school system did not make access available.70 years of that being so,I'd suggest they would be in deep you know what.
5) Hypothetically if the 2002 Report about Sport Under Vichy which pointed the finger at Union officials, had ordered reparations ,that could have put rl on a sounder footing than it is now.We'll never know of course.

 

[Pommy]

Rugby league is an organisation,a sporting organisation," the Vichy Govt just selecting rugby league as the only group or organisation targeted" Of course we understand that's not the case ,of course others were targeted.Left wing organisations etc.

My response was to highlight (as rugby league is an organisation) were targeted with the "push and shove" from Rugby Union authorities.The other groups or organisations whatever you wish to call them I submit ,did not have union assistance to ban them.
Nothing more to my point, nothing less.Call me pedantic so be it.

My point is just it’s a bit fanciful to imagine the French government handing back property etc after all this time.
As we have said left wing groups, Freemasons, Jews and no doubt others were targeted these groups would also then come to the forefront.
The property stolen will have been invested in and developed, possibly even sold off and the people who are in and run the clubs or own the land today are not to blame.
It’s akin to the prime minister of Australia gifting your house in 2018 to the local aboriginal group as the land was theirs. Again a moral case could be built to support that but it’s hardly a vote winner.

I’m in no way excusing what the Vichy government or union did, I’m just being a realist.

 

[taipan]

I'm a realist ,handing back property and repaying monies purloined, is not going to happen.The French ru js too powerful to have their names dragged through the mud, and the Govt would deem it an unnecessary waste of taxpayers' money.
It to me ,is a stain in World sporting history,but in the end later generations are not going to care either way.
And French rugby league will continue to be a struggling sport ,until or unless they get more clubs into SL or form a number of higher profile clubs in France.That requires lots of cash, and most of that comes from rich bods, usually involved in union clubs.

 

[Disinterested third party]

Sure, Vichy wasn't cool, but one must not overlook the fact that league probably peaked in the 50s.

The demise of league in france is mostly due to incompetence on its own behalf:

- not investing in youth comps and the like
- sticking with radio rather than going with tv because it may reduce gate takings
- infighting

This shouldn't surprise anyone.

Disagree. You could argue the period 1934-1939 was the true glory period for French RL.

 

[Disinterested third party]

No acknowledgement.
No apology.
No reparations.

This is what RL has received so far from French union.

Seems fair.

 

[Disinterested third party]

After WWII, union still attacked rugby league. Just more covertly and in different ways. This was more the reason behind the decline than administration. The best ever French RL administrators were post WWII - eg. Barriere and Blain. Also, you can clearly see how restrictions on playing during WWII actually cruelled the game AFTER the war, when the existing players retired. This occurred towards the end of the 50s.

 

[miguel de cervantes]

perhaps. certainly denying them usage of the term rugby wouldn't help. but it is disingenuous to deny that poor administration played _some_ role, particularly the TV aspect. that is a massive dropped ball if ever there was one.