Virtual NRL

[Mzilikazi]

petty. Why don't they means test it.

If the guy's not making a motza out of something that means so much to so many fans, and brings interest to the game, why legislate him out of existence?

 

[Greenblooded]

Actually I have exagerated here. What you can't do is reproduce the stats for commercial gain and as VNRL has sponsors I guess that excludes them. IMO There is nothing wrong in quoting stats here in LU, although don't quote me on that

Hmm, what if someone had the stats in a forum thread here as a "topic" and then VNRL took the stats from LU, thereby not using NRL.com stats? How would NRL.com prove they were being used anyway??

 

[The Colonel]

Actually I have exagerated here. What you can't do is reproduce the stats for commercial gain and as VNRL has sponsors I guess that excludes them. IMO There is nothing wrong in quoting stats here in LU, although don't quote me on that

Hmm, what if someone had the stats in a forum thread here as a "topic" and then VNRL took the stats from LU, thereby not using NRL.com stats? How would NRL.com prove they were being used anyway??

From www.nrlstats.com.au

NRL Stats Terms and Conditions

All information, produced by NRL Stats Pty Ltd ("Content") is protected by Australian and international copyright and trademark laws. Apart from any use permitted under the Copyright Act 1968 (Cth) you must not modify, copy, reproduce, republish, frame, upload to a third party, post, transmit or distribute this Content in any way except as expressly authorised in writing by NRL Stats.

The reproduction, duplication, distribution (including by way of email, facsimile or other electronic means), publication, modification, copying or transmission of material from NRL Stats service is STRICTLY PROHIBITED unless you have obtained the prior written consent of NRL Stats. The material covered by this prohibition includes, without limitation, any text, and program code (in part or presented in full).

The information in the service is for personal use only and may not be re-written, copied, re-sold or re-distributed, framed, linked or otherwise used whether for compensation of any kind or not without the prior written permission of NRL Stats. Any unauthorised re-production of this information is prohibited. This means you are strictly prohibited from creating works or materials that derive from or are based on the materials produced by NRL Stats. This prohibition applies regardless of whether the derivative materials are sold, bartered or given away.

Strictly on the condition that you keep all Content intact and in the same form as presented on by NRL Stats (including without limitation all copyright, trademark and other proprietary notices and all advertisements), you may ONLY download and/or view the Content for your personal, non-commercial use. This service is published for information only without assuming a duty of care.

NRL Stats is not in the business of providing professional advice, and gives no warranty, guarantee or other representation about the accuracy of the information contained in this service. NRL Stats is not liable for errors, omissions in, delays or interruptions to or cessation of the services through negligence or otherwise.

Basically you would be putting LU at risk....

 

[Willow]

There was a little too much conjecture in this thread regarding monetary figures. Like any organisation, NRLstats and Sportsdata are within their rights to look after their own business. I've edited out the parts which quote monetary figures.

The subject matter is about VNRL and if it's happening in 2005. I think that's been covered.

Cheers.

 

[Mzilikazi]

When will it be happening?

 

[Dogs Of War]

Dear all,

As you may or may not have heard, VNRL 2005 is no longer going ahead. I can
tell you that nobody is more gutted by this decision than me, but often out
of great pain and disappointment comes great success.

We can only hope.

Each of you volunteered your time or support for the game this year when I
requested it, and I thank you so sincerely. It is so humbling to know that
so many of you are so willing to step up and help.

If and when we come back in 2006, I hope you're willing to get back into the
game with the same passion.

Thanks again.

Chris

Seem their will be no VNRL this year.

 

[melon....]

Im in a similar predicament with my Stats for The Rugby LEague Site. I have been "interpreting" match data and have written my own database modules to generate all sorts of unique stats since 2002. To dat I have not published any because of the increasing scrutiny surrounding the publication of stats.

Earlier this year there was a forum in Europe, started by the governing bodies of huge dollar US sports like the NFL, which tried to pass a motion for legislating against people actually collecting and generating their own stats. Their claim is the players that generate the statistics through the gameplay, belong to the franchises that are governed by the bodies that have rights to the production of Stats. Their argument was "We own the players, hence we own the stats they generate through their game play". Last I heard it was thrown out as absolutely absurd.

Whilst most producers of stats agree that copying or republiching someone elses stats is illegal and unethical, a person should be able to pay to attend a game, observe and record their own figures, and "interpret" those figures into their own propriatory publication. The figures may not even match up with the "Offically Published" figures, which adds to the credence of creative licensing. The promotion of individually interpreted statistics, can only assist in protecting "Official" statistics published, especially if the stats are provided free of charge to a select audience of enthusiasts.

And thats where they try and stop you. Why allow Melon to publish his hair brained stats for free, even though they are his interpretation of the game events, and may be totally inaccurate, when we can sell the Official and Correct stats.

There are 2 markets here that the official stats producers do not want to recognise. There are the clubs and official sources that require official and reportedly accurate and uniform statistcs and pay a premium for these stats, and there's the footy fan that just wants to look up some stats and figures to give him a "rough" idea of how things in the game are shaping up.

I once wrote to the official NRL statistics producers asking permission to publish my statistics which I collected and generated, interpreted, processed and published, because I wanted a formal agreement that my work wasnt theirs and was never going to be theirs, and that I was providing these figures gratus to a market that did not interfere with their intened audience and existing customer base. The reply I got was nothing short of lame. They sighted the enormous amount of time and money they spend generating stats meant they couldnt allow me to do likewise, to protect their investment.

What about my investment? Hundreds of man hours, collecting, reviewing, calculating and formatting results and figures, so that I can provide MY INTERPRETATION of teh NRL season.

Not good enough apparently for the offical producer that seems to be like a large telecomunications company monopolising the game.

Its not over yet. Im slowly getting the backing of many league enthusiasts, sponsors and people in the game, and once the legalities are formalised, I will make my mark with the passion I have forRugby LEague stats and the delivery mechanisms to the fan.......who knows I might even compete with the existing providers...because they want to play hard ball and leave me no choice.

The other initiative that I want to start as soon as legalities are formalised is get the support and conglomeration of large user communities like LU, but I giess that something for me and the LU owners to discuss in the appropriate "forum"...LOL.

 

[Aeetee]

As most of you know VNRL is no more for the 2005 season, but with some luck 2006 will be bigger and better than ever.

And the cost of those stats from the NRL people from memory was $50,000+ and no thats not a mistake.

 

[Raider_69]

absolutely devestated

 

[Raider Azz]

And the cost of those stats from the NRL people from memory was $50,000+ and no thats not a mistake.

They should just copy the stats and say they collected them themselves. How would the NRL prove otherwise ;-)

 

[girvie]

Worst news of the year. I won't have much reason to watch NRL this year

 

[simon says]

Surely if you are keen you can do this yerselves.Thast what I plan on doing.Having my own Wests Tigers comp using the same format that VNRL used.Quite easy really.

Cheers.

 

[melon....]

And the cost of those stats from the NRL people from memory was $50,000+ and no thats not a mistake.

They should just copy the stats and say they collected them themselves. How would the NRL prove otherwise ;-)

Not that easy Azz. You must be able to show that you have put considerable amount of effort in collecting, collating and producing the figures.

I have to be able to prove that i have a person working for me collecting at every ground on matchday, and then i have to prove that I use a legal mechanism, through a licensed product, or copy product of my own to produce the results.

 

[Mzilikazi]

Im in a similar predicament with my Stats for The Rugby LEague Site. I have been "interpreting" match data and have written my own database modules to generate all sorts of unique stats since 2002. To dat I have not published any because of the increasing scrutiny surrounding the publication of stats.

Earlier this year there was a forum in Europe, started by the governing bodies of huge dollar US sports like the NFL, which tried to pass a motion for legislating against people actually collecting and generating their own stats. Their claim is the players that generate the statistics through the gameplay, belong to the franchises that are governed by the bodies that have rights to the production of Stats. Their argument was "We own the players, hence we own the stats they generate through their game play". Last I heard it was thrown out as absolutely absurd.

Whilst most producers of stats agree that copying or republiching someone elses stats is illegal and unethical, a person should be able to pay to attend a game, observe and record their own figures, and "interpret" those figures into their own propriatory publication. The figures may not even match up with the "Offically Published" figures, which adds to the credence of creative licensing. The promotion of individually interpreted statistics, can only assist in protecting "Official" statistics published, especially if the stats are provided free of charge to a select audience of enthusiasts.

And thats where they try and stop you. Why allow Melon to publish his hair brained stats for free, even though they are his interpretation of the game events, and may be totally inaccurate, when we can sell the Official and Correct stats.

There are 2 markets here that the official stats producers do not want to recognise. There are the clubs and official sources that require official and reportedly accurate and uniform statistcs and pay a premium for these stats, and there's the footy fan that just wants to look up some stats and figures to give him a "rough" idea of how things in the game are shaping up.

I once wrote to the official NRL statistics producers asking permission to publish my statistics which I collected and generated, interpreted, processed and published, because I wanted a formal agreement that my work wasnt theirs and was never going to be theirs, and that I was providing these figures gratus to a market that did not interfere with their intened audience and existing customer base. The reply I got was nothing short of lame. They sighted the enormous amount of time and money they spend generating stats meant they couldnt allow me to do likewise, to protect their investment.

What about my investment? Hundreds of man hours, collecting, reviewing, calculating and formatting results and figures, so that I can provide MY INTERPRETATION of teh NRL season.

Not good enough apparently for the offical producer that seems to be like a large telecomunications company monopolising the game.

Its not over yet. Im slowly getting the backing of many league enthusiasts, sponsors and people in the game, and once the legalities are formalised, I will make my mark with the passion I have forRugby LEague stats and the delivery mechanisms to the fan.......who knows I might even compete with the existing providers...because they want to play hard ball and leave me no choice.

The other initiative that I want to start as soon as legalities are formalised is get the support and conglomeration of large user communities like LU, but I giess that something for me and the LU owners to discuss in the appropriate "forum"...LOL.

An outstanding post. Good luck with your efforts.

You'd have thought that the NRL would have learned from the Souths debacle that the fan does not want to be disenfranchised and that competitions like VNRL actually strengthen their product rather than take away from it.

There will be a lot of fans that will be significantly less interested in the goings on of the NRL on a week to week basis because of their instransigence on this issue.

As I've stated earlier, sometimes it help to apply the spirit of the law as opposed to the letter of the law. Obviously that's too hard for Gallop and Co.

Potentially this news is more damaging ot the NRL than the goings on in Bathurst. This strikes to the heart of the hard core fan and allienates them.

It's a pity because it seems avoidable.

 

[girvie]

Sign the petition :!:

http://www.petitiononline.com/vnrlpet/petition.html

 

[Kris_man]

Potentially this news is more damaging ot the NRL than the goings on in Bathurst. This strikes to the heart of the hard core fan and allienates them.

shit yeah. to be honest, i don't give a rats about what happened in Bathurst, to me that has nothing to do with rugby league. but this is news about Virtual NRL is a real downer, and there will be quite a lessened amount of excitement i get from NRL games in 2005.

this debacle really goes to show how little the NRL "suits" know about the average rugby league fan.

 

[Kris_man]

oh, and, fantastic post melon, great stuff obviously your work, though, is far from complete. if you need a hand at all in taking down the tall poppies, i'd be glad to assist.

 

[TigerMo]

Worst news of the year. I won't have much reason to watch NRL this year

Won't have much reason? Isn't watching the best RL comp in the world enough reason to watch the NRL.. ?

 

[Prodigiousman]

To point out something EXTREMELY Ironic....

in the mid-to-late 90s a hard working pair of rugby league fans who shall remain nameless decided that their 'greatest game of all' was worth analysing further. So armed with a tape recorded and pay tv they went about watching and rewatching each game each week and started collecting information on what was happening on the field.

They worked late nights weekends and did everything that was required to ensure they had a collection of 'information' that could tell the story of the game they loved. Then it dawned on them to offer it to some magazines as info to fill their pages, it wasn't taken in full at first but gradually they were in one magazine weekly.

So a love for their game got them into to the big time, there was no 'official' carrier of stats - only the club statisticians and david middleton at ch9 for their televised games and maybe one or two basic stats guys at pay tv.

Then when one of the duo armed with some handy financing decided to team up with a sports information IT company, NRL s....s was born. And any chance of any tom, dick or harry following in their footsteps was ended. They got to be the official carriers and forgot where they came from and decided that they were the only ones who had the right to do this service. the NRL gave this 'right' up for an ok penny (not a big one) and we have a situation where one company owns the 'rights'. Its funny how when this happened in radio land re: broadcast rights how much the quality of calling decreased... and alas the same thing happens now in the world of statistical information.

Its called Greed i'm afraid, and believe me I'm in the trenches trying to find a way into it all... and i might just have the system for it but i'll be going through Ch9 - who we all know really run the game.

So there ends the story of two men who decided to take their interest in the game to another level... and systematically shut out the very people who started out like them all those years ago.

Soon enough the lure of the dollar will overcome this barrier people and there will be more than one way to skin the statistical cat, in North America stats are HUGE business and fantasy games are king.

And with all due respect to VNRL and its ability to invest your interest in every game each week - you ain't seen nothing yet.

 

[Raider_69]

**egerly awaits for what i ain't seen yet**