Vs Bunnies

[jamaman]

The bottom line is we have players that are not up to nrl level..

 

[JJ]

The bottom line is we have players that are not up to nrl level..

Who??

Most will start by saying Wright - but he's not the problem (the problem predates him by a long way) - the problem is often the so called "big" talents...

 

[jaseg]

I get where you're coming from with the culture argument, and there is some merit to it - but geez that wasn't a good example. Sure, Brazil & Germany have been traditionally seen as flamboyant and clinical respectively.. but in the last world cup that was actually almost reversed. Brazil's team was far from a classic, relying on Thiago Silva/David Luiz/Luiz Gustavo/Fernandinho to form a solid defensive base while Neymar carried the team forward (even Oscar - the attacking midfielder - is known at club level for his defensive workrate) - while Germany's team was noted for being particularly skilful on the ball (Gotze, Kroos, Schweini, Muller, Ozil, even centre back Hummels etc).. traditional roles sort of reversed

Back to League, I'm less inclined to blame culture outside the club. We've had seasons where we are better defensively (think Cleary), so I'm unwilling to put much blame on external culture (though it could play a part of course). Coach and current players available are going to play a big part in this stuff.. it's hard to judge Cappy too harshly on that stuff this year, given the injuries he's had to deal with and the improvement he oversaw last year in defensive results. Last year (under Cappy) we conceded an average of 18.58 points per game, this year it's 22.25 - have we ever had less than 5-6 players unavailable for any game so far this year?

EDIT: If the coach does go, however, for the love of god get Geoff Toovey. Manly throwing him away is awesomely stupid.

 

[Alan Johnson]

Maybe that particular example wasn't the best, but you get what I'm saying which is the main thing.

Ask yourself this simple question: how similar is the culture the Warriors come from to that which the other NRL teams come from? And then: could that have an effect on the way we play?

I think there are two indisputable facts here:
1) The Warriors DO come from a culture that is significantly different to what most Australian teams come from, and
2) We have habits that are peculiar to our club, or at least are more pronounced in our club than other clubs.

So, is there a link between 1 and 2? I submit that there most certainly is.

 

[Iron Lion]

What a load of shit

Have you ever heard of a little team called the All Blacks. One of the most if not the most dominating sports team of the last 100 years anywhere in the world. Currently winning more games than ever. That team has for a long time been made up of elite Polynesian athletes at the very best of their game physically and mentally. In fact New Zealand rugby is dominanted by Polynesians, and these guys are the best in the business in the rugby world.

The problem with the Warriors has always been leadership and management, its always been weak. The golden period was when Daniel Anderson came in and gave them a boot the arse. That team was polynesian dominated and kicked a lot of ass, took out the minor premiership and lost out in the grand final.

Simon Mannering is a weak captain - you see that on the field when he talks, Cappy is a weak coach - you see that by what he says at the press conferences. Wayne Bennett is the best because he is brutal, he doesn't just drop players, he threatens their future at the club if they don't pull finger. He has respect through fear.

What do these players fear about McFadden, maybe getting dropped to reserve grade?

 

[JJ]

What a load of shit

Have you ever heard of a little team called the All Blacks. One of the most if not the most dominating sports team of the last 100 years anywhere in the world. Currently winning more games than ever. That team has for a long time been made up of elite Polynesian athletes at the very best of their game physically and mentally. In fact New Zealand rugby is dominanted by Polynesians, and these guys are the best in the business in the rugby world.

Dominated?? Not really.... McCaw, Read, Carter, Barrett, Retallick, Woodcock, Smith etc - core of the team, and arguably the best players...

 

[jamaman]

Who??

Most will start by saying Wright - but he's not the problem (the problem predates him by a long way) - the problem is often the so called "big" talents...

Your joking! we don't have enough "big talents" 6 -7 are rookie nrl players
2 are past use by date .. that's the issue against a team of "big talents"!!

 

[vvvrulz]

What a load of shit

Have you ever heard of a little team called the All Blacks. One of the most if not the most dominating sports team of the last 100 years anywhere in the world. Currently winning more games than ever. That team has for a long time been made up of elite Polynesian athletes at the very best of their game physically and mentally. In fact New Zealand rugby is dominanted by Polynesians, and these guys are the best in the business in the rugby world.

This isn't really true, the ratio is still about 50/50.

But you do have a point, their levels of consistency is far above the Warriors and that suggests a coaching and/or management issue.

 

[JJ]

This isn't really true, the ratio is still about 50/50.

But you do have a point, their levels of consistency is far above the Warriors and that suggests a coaching and/or management issue.

It does to an extent, but the Warriors have literally always been this way. And as above, certainly not the case that the All Blacks are (or ever have been) dominated by Polynesian players

Certainly McFadden isn't up to it, but it's not clear if anyone is tbh.

The Johnson thing is weird - to me the pack has generally been good this year, and yet our 7 has been anonymous - either he's just not that good at NRL level (meaning the week-to-week consistency required) or the structure and coaching is completely wrong...

 

[vvvrulz]

Yeah we can't use the misfiring pack excuse anymore that's for sure

 

[ozbash]

The problem with the Warriors has always been leadership and management, its always been weak.

pretty much the guts of it..

 

[jaseg]

Christ. Let's bring some reality back to the conversation (RE Johnson). Johnson had a slow start to the year, yes, but you know how many halves have created more chances than him over the season so far?

Two. The leader is Jonathan Thurston. Ben Hunt is second. Johnson third - and Johnson has three times more linebreaks than Hunt (I was only counting try and linebreak assists) on top of that. You can throw DCE in the mix as well (since he's played 1 fewer game).

He had a game that he didn't dominate. Don't crucify the bloke for it. He's going pretty damn well.

 

[Philip_Smith007]

Certainly McFadden isn't up to it, but it's not clear if anyone is tbh.

The Johnson thing is weird - to me the pack has generally been good this year, and yet our 7 has been anonymous - either he's just not that good at NRL level (meaning the week-to-week consistency required) or the structure and coaching is completely wrong...

Two things stick out, Johnsons not making the calls and little players are not following Matulino for offloads. Both coaching/structure things.
Dropped balls is a talent/skill issue.

 

[Philip_Smith007]

Watching Bulldog v Dragons and add tackling technique to our issues, plenty of rushing out of line, but ball carrier is being but down!

 

[JJ]

Two things stick out, Johnsons not making the calls and little players are not following Matulino for offloads. Both coaching/structure things.
Dropped balls is a talent/skill issue.

Attitude too, for the dropped balls

Agree, the structure needs to change to make the most of SJ

I did laugh about people bagging Lillyman for dropping the pass - yes, he most certainly should have taken it - but it should have been Johnson, Townsend, Lolohea or Havilii (think he was on then, else Friend) backing up - great for Jake to be aware I reckon - he's having another string season - and pretty much every game he and Matulino have been impressive

 

[vvvrulz]

Johnson's start to this season was appalling, he only took it up a notch after the Kiwi's.
You can point to favourable numbers but more times than not he hasn't done enough.

I thought he had a decent first half as did Townsend, didn't watch the last 15 mins to be fair and it sounds like he fell off but so did most of the team.

He strikes me as a guy who needs class everywhere around him to perform, which of course is no excuse.

Can't understand why nobody is following Matulino and Hoff who are always creating half chances.

We're just bits of a puzzle, there's no glue that makes it all work.

 

[Auckland4ever]

Attitude too, for the dropped balls

I'd say it was tiredness more than attitude - we did a hell of a lot of definding & SJ rarely drops it from week to week. The run down on Inglis (like the Koriobete one) didn't exactly scream poor attitude. What it does bring to the surface is how blunted a team with a number of players who have attacking ability becomes when they don't defend well enough as a unit.

Seems SJ has become a very polarizing figure at the club. We hardly got any field position against Souths for a large part of that game, so I don't get why so much of the focus is on him. As Jaseg has mentioned, he's up there with linebreaks, try assists etc. and our kicking game would be greatly poorer without him. Our attack is generally good enough. Bottom line is that we make too many errors as a team, leak too many points as a team and we're inconsistent as a team as a result.

 

[JJ]

I'd say it was tiredness more than attitude - we did a hell of a lot of definding & SJ rarely drops it from week to week. The run down on Inglis (like the Koriobete one) didn't exactly scream poor attitude. What it does bring to the surface is how blunted a team with a number of players who have attacking ability becomes when they don't defend well enough as a unit.

Seems SJ has become a very polarizing figure at the club. We hardly got any field position against Souths for a large part of that game, so I don't get why so much of the focus is on him. As Jaseg has mentioned, he's up there with linebreaks, try assists etc. and our kicking game would be greatly poorer without him. Our attack is generally good enough. Bottom line is that we make too many errors as a team, leak too many points as a team and we're inconsistent as a team as a result.

I was talking team wise for the dropped balls - not SJ

Be interested in drilling down into the stats more - at the end of the day he's been pretty anonymous behind a pack that's performing well - Townsend, I think, by most measures has outperformed him - that suggests something structurally wrong with what's being done. I think Johnson's attitude is pretty good - I am basing that more on his efforts in defence - clearly it's not that he's not trying - McFadden has a weapon at #7 who is being used poorly

 

[Rich102]

I'd say it was tiredness more than attitude - we did a hell of a lot of definding & SJ rarely drops it from week to week. The run down on Inglis (like the Koriobete one) didn't exactly scream poor attitude. What it does bring to the surface is how blunted a team with a number of players who have attacking ability becomes when they don't defend well enough as a unit.

Seems SJ has become a very polarizing figure at the club. We hardly got any field position against Souths for a large part of that game, so I don't get why so much of the focus is on him. As Jaseg has mentioned, he's up there with linebreaks, try assists etc. and our kicking game would be greatly poorer without him. Our attack is generally good enough. Bottom line is that we make too many errors as a team, leak too many points as a team and we're inconsistent as a team as a result.

Disagree. In a game where the Warriors did most of the defence SJ managed only 9 tackles, as opposed to Townsend's 28, and 3 of those he missed. Hardly a strong effort.
Also he is best when he runs to the line and steps. Against Souths he only ran to the line once; on the last set of the day.
I also thought his kicks in play were poor and as for directing play.....

These are what a halfback is about. He is not performing.

As for our attack being generally good. How many second half points have we scored all season?

 

[Auckland4ever]

Disagree. In a game where the Warriors did most of the defence SJ managed only 9 tackles, as opposed to Townsend's 28, and 3 of those he missed. Hardly a strong effort.
Also he is best when he runs to the line and steps. Against Souths he only ran to the line once; on the last set of the day.
I also thought his kicks in play were poor and as for directing play.....

These are what a halfback is about. He is not performing.

As for our attack being generally good. How many second half points have we scored all season?

I never said it was a strong effort from him against Souths. My point is our defense is what is holding us back from being contenders, not SJ, so I personally don't focus on him (or any individual player) when looking at why we're struggling for yet another season.

Our attack is good enough to be winning the lions share of games we play. It certainly would be for a number of other sides. But conceding at least 20 in most matches and making too many errors means, not only are we in grave danger of losing these games, our attack isn't at its best, because our attacking players are using up energy defending.

I don't know the answer to your question at the end, but its equally relevant to ask how many second half points have we conceded? How many second half errors have we made? How many second half tackles, missed tackles, repeat sets etc etc. etc. Defense affects attack.