Wagss to Jim Beam Cup

[The Colonel]

Wagon missed one, Nathan Hindmarsh missed six...... do we drop him to Premier League?

Wagon may not have have had a good game on Monday night however he certainly wasn't Pat Malone I must say.

 

[fish eel]

5 hitups is pretty hard to cop TBH.

Didnt Jason King once have zero hit ups? :lol:

 

[Belly in Brisvegas]

If i remmember correctly wagon missed a tackle on gaz which created a try for rangi chase. know is that a fair argument on his game on monday night ...

nup...Hindys poor effort out of marker was the catalyst for that try.

 

[The Colonel]

It s#%ts me to tears when displays like the other night get put down to ball handling alone (not saying Colonel is doing that but coaches and players always do).

Monday night could also be put down to the poor lack of discipline that was shown which resulted in either handovers or repeat sets in terms of penalties. The last two weeks have seen poor penalties given away for leg pulls, slow movement at the ruck and high tackles.

14 more sets - five penalties. Our handling may have been poor but our discipline was worse.

 

[emjaycee]

fish eel normally numbers speak for themselves if you think that wagon had a satisfactory game your kidding yourself.
34 tackles and 5 hitups = 63 min ( unsatisfactory for a senior first grader)
and he will do the same for next week. you watch

Ok - IF as a team we made 395 tackles it is an average of 4.9 tackles per minute overall.

IF these were only made by forwards, then it would be an average of 65.8 tackles per forward per game. However backs also tackle so lets take out 20% of the tackles and say forwards should have made 316 tackles.

This is an average of 53 tackles per forward over 80 mins or 1 tackle every 1.5 mins.

If Wagon was on the field for 63 mins he should have made 42 tackles to be an average forward. He made 34 tackles and missed 1 so he is 7 tackles below average.

However, as positional play needs to be calculated in order to be accurate, lets say that only 80% of the tackles needed to be made down his side. That drops the number of tackles needed for Wagon to be considered average to... ummm 34.

Wow, he had an average night.

Lets not forget statistics can be manipulated any which way

I am not sticking up for Wags, but lets not use raw statistics to crucify a player when the whole team underperforms.

 

[Hollywood Jesus]

that equates to roughly 45 tackles if he had have played 80 minutes.

I think that's a pretty good stat, actually. Not everyone is a Nathan Hindmarsh or Stu Galbraith.

 

[eeelectroshooting?]

nup...Hindys poor effort out of marker was the catalyst for that try.

I thought it was cordoba :?

 

[goboggo]

I thought it was cordoba :?

Cordoba was in the line, and I'm pretty sure it was he who dived to make the tackle. However, it isn't the props responsibility to shut down the space in behind the ruck, it is the markers. Hindy broke the marker rule - that you split sides - and allowed Gasnier in behind him.

Sure, you may say Cordoba could have been more alert to the play, but it was a pretty wiley move by the Dragons - take off one side of the ruck, wide of the markers towards the prop, and then throw an inside ball to the hole.


Oh, as for the topic - 34 tackles is fine. 5 hitups for 19 metres is disgraceful.

 

[Suitman]

5 hitups for 19 metres is disgraceful.

And we wonder why we are having trouble going forward.

Suity

 

[Ron Jeremy]

That stat is very misleading

 

[Tekken Lord]

19 metres is just pathetic, i don't really care how many tackles a player does but if they only make 19 metres a game they shouldn't be playing first grade, especially if it's a forward.

 

[Ron Jeremy]

Yes thats fair enough, but how much possesion did we have? and in the second half the hitups were eaten up by Hindy, Fui, Cayless and our backs...not making excuses but it would be pretty hard when chasing for Wagon to get the ball, it would be left to our more damaging runners.

 

[Tekken Lord]

I'm sick of how sh*t our forwards seem to be at gaining metres, i remember somebody showing a stat weeks ago and only five players in the team made more than 100 metres and three of those were backs, it's just not good enough. The team will lose and continue to lose until we have forwards that can make metres. I know it seems dishing out on the forwards is a crime and it's all the halves fault that the team loses even though no halves ever win games unless their forwards are competetive, which ours aren't. The team needs big strong hard running forwards otherwise this year is already over.

 

[Ron Jeremy]

I'm sick of how sh*t our forwards seem to be at gaining metres, i remember somebody showing a stat weeks ago and only five players in the team made more than 100 metres and three of those were backs, it's just not good enough. The team will lose and continue to lose until we have forwards that can make metres. I know it seems dishing out on the forwards is a crime and it's all the halves fault that the team loses even though no halves ever win games unless their forwards are competetive, which ours aren't. The team needs big strong hard running forwards otherwise this year is already over.

Yep i agree, dont know why we always play in a defensive way? it's like we're trying to be negative rather then proactive?

 

[goboggo]

That stat is very misleading

How is it misleading?

Forwards should be demanding the ball to make hitups.

Even if by some freaky reason he isn't getting any hitups because others are taking them, he should still make more metres per run (which is probably a better indicator of effectiveness).

Anyway, NRLstats has him down as 4 runs for 25m. 6.25 metres per run.

It makes for interesting reading, expecially considering that everyone on here is calling for a 4th prop.

PROPS

Cayless - 17 runs for 147 metres - 8.65 metres per run
Cordoba - 12 runs for 107 metres - 8.92
Fuifui -- 12 runs for 104 metres - 8.67

BACKROWERS

Wagon - 4 for 25 - 6.25 mpr
Hindy - 14 for 90 - 6.43mpr
Robbo - 10 for 74 - 7.4
Riddell - 5 for 45 - 9
Feleti - 7 for 50 - 7.15

As you can see the Props are consistently gaining more metres, and more metres per carry. It's pretty safe to assume that the lower number of carries should equate to higher average metres gained, but it's not the case when it comes to our backrowers (except Piggy) - they are doing less work but not having any more impact.

It's right there in black and white - we need another prop.

 

[oldmancraigy]

Robinson played 'prop' for this game.

Hagan loves to put him there - but I think it's madness. The guy is more of a defensive hitman than an attacking runner of the ball. He needs to be played as our 'beefcake' second rower. Definitely need another prop!

____________________

Colonel, I'll present a more convincing 'anti-Wagon' argument for you (not solely based on stats!)

It's about the 'right fit' for this team.
Obviously in our forward pack we have several players who stand out above and beyond the rest and simply must/will get picked.

Those are:
Cayless (P)
Moi Moi (P)
Hindmarsh (SR)
I can't see any better option than PJ and Piggy manning the hooker spot atm!

That's a fairly 'workhorse' forward pack thus far, and it's fair to say we need a 'flair forward' who can run wide and/or give an offload or 2. Clearly Mateo fits the bill and I hope I don't have to argue TOO hard for his inclusion in the back row.

What next? Well we need go-forward, Cordoba is clearly the 'next best' prop at this club, and it's hard to see him not getting picked. IMO we then need another prop who carts the ball forward - I've been impressed with Paulo, but at this stage of the season I'd guess Cannings would be the one picked. Either of those and I'm happy.

So far the makeup of the pack:

8. Cayless
9. Riddell
10. Cordoba
11. Hindmarsh
12. Mateo
13.

14. Marsh (starting Pig who comes off after 20, and can then return as a running forward later - Marsh playing 60 at hooker)
15.
16. Cannings
17. Moi Moi

we then have 2 spots left. 1 is a definite backrower position, we need someone who will put some sting into the attack, and who won't shirk the 'hard work' in getting the ball forward. For balance sake we really need a '1 off the ruck' player who can take it up on tackle 2 or 3 should the props not be ready - and to be honest, that isn't really N Hindy or Mateos game. I'd stick in Chad Robinson or Ian Hindmarsh, both have some sting in defence, and are the 'no frills' sort of runner.

Then the final bench spot comes down to impact. We either need a player who can cause some damage with their runs, or who can come on and sustain (or even lift) the defensive impact. Hauraki hasn't taken a backwards step all year, and would seem logical as a 'runner', and obviously the other of Ian or Chad fits the 'defensive impact' bill.

So where does Wagon fit into this equation?

He's a defensive worker who has no real bite to his tackles when facing opposition forwards. He hounds the opposition playmaker, and likes to get in their face. Unfortunately he has a tendancy to rush out of the line, or go to sleep when the play goes away from him. He is also fairly ineffective when confronting bigger forwards one on one. He is also highly ineffective in attack - he doesn't run decoys and rarely rolls up the sleeves to cart the ball forward (his 4 hitups v the Drags IS below his season average of 5.5 per game...). Great on the kick chase side of things - but can we afford to pick a player who is a 'specialty' player in an area that we're not overly deficient in?
I'd argue that Nathan and Ian, or Nathan and Chad would offer AT LEAST as mch as Wagon defensively while having more strings to their bows in attack, and against larger forwards.

So the choice comes down to picking Wagon for his ability to chase the opposition ball-player around the park, OR picking a 'bigger' forward who can get a roll on for us and move the ball forward.
And in our current lineup, Wagon is effectively being picked at the expense of a prop.

I'm not saying he's the worst player in the world, just that he's not a great fit in this team at this time considering the other talents that are around.

 

[jk13]

spot on old man, one has to go and unfortunately it is wagon. We will need him next yr when ian is gone.

 

[Suitman]

spot on old man, one has to go and unfortunately it is wagon. We will need him next yr when ian is gone.

But will we??

Surely it is time a Premier League player made the step up.
Hagan is in his first year at the club. He is obviously re-building and setting up what he believes is a premiership winning side.
What future does Wagon hold in that? I'm not sure, but if he is going to hold someone back, I'd prefer him out of the team.
I say the same as OMC. I don't think he's the worst player we have, but I think he is taking a spot in the 17 and being largely ineffective.
We have Robinson, Hindmarsh, Cayless - all excellent defenders.
Our defence hasn't been our problem lately. Our go forward is. To this Wagon adds zilch.

It is time to make a tough call.

I admire Jason Taylor. He has had to make several this year, notably dropping Peachey, J Smith and Williams from his side when things weren't travelling so well.
They have worked hard to right the wrongs, and only when he thought it was time, did he bring back Smith and Williams, and they have been going very well.

But, with the toughest decision of all to make, when faced with the emotional decision to bring back Peachey, he stood by his convictions and resisted the temptation. He said it was the toughest selection decision he has had to make, but he had the balls to do it.

We've had 10 years of Brian Smith generally playing favourites, even when the chips were down.
I don't want to see this continue.

Suity

 

[The Colonel]

Definitely convoncing however I'd rather see Wagon kept in the side and even prmoted to the starting side. However I wouldn't promote him into the forwards - I'd play him at centre and drop Ben Smith. You keep a big defensive centre in the side and I think he would be as effective if not moreso than Ben Smith at the present time.

 

[Suitman]

Definitely convoncing however I'd rather see Wagon kept in the side and even prmoted to the starting side. However I wouldn't promote him into the forwards - I'd play him at centre and drop Ben Smith. You keep a big defensive centre in the side and I think he would be as effective if not moreso than Ben Smith at the present time.

That's a big call Colonel.

Suity