Wales v England Oct 27

[miguel de cervantes]

but these games need to be played so in 10 - 20 years time we have a dozen nations that can compete.

The only way a dozen nations will be competitive in 10 - 20 years time is if those nations have at least 20 half decent players playing week in week out in the NRL, ESL and the SuperXIII if it exists. This is perhaps possible for Aus, Eng, NZ, Fiji, Tonga, Samoa, PNG, Wales, France, Ireland, Scotland, Italy(?) but very unlikely for some of these.

Playing these internationals is a necessary but no where close to a sufficient measure.

 

[Evil Homer]

I agree, these games need to be played. But, for the most part, they won't be. The only reason England is playing in this tournament is because Australia and New Zealand aren't playing this year. Would England travel to Canada or the United States to play a game against the lesser opposition that would be supplied? Would they travel to Lebanon? Would the Kangaroos or Kiwis travel to play lesser opposition such as this? Not bloody likely? So these games, "that have to be played" to make the lesser nations better, are not likely going to be played anyways. And even if they were - they will still shed a poor light on the sport when there are better ways to bring the sport to new fans around the world.

International RL is not a joke, it's just the nature of the sport, there is nowhere to hide and no spoiling tactics that can be employed like in other sports. Wales had about 4 players today that would be classed as regular first graders, the rest were either talented juniors or players from lower competitions. If you pit full-time professional players against semi-pros and kids, then the score is always going to be a blowout. Full-time against amateurs, in the case of USA or Canada as you have suggested, would just be a waste of everyone's time and potentially dangerous because of the nature of the sport. Canada lost by 60 to a team of English amateurs FFS.

The aim is to get Wales, France and the other 'tier 2' nations to the stage where they are able to field entire teams of full-time players. France are almost there, Wales should be in a few years, the others may take a little longer but ultimately that is the way to ensure a competitive international scene.

As for your idea about 'showcasing the sport', the interest in watching two foreign club sides playing would be absolutely minimal compared to watching the national team playing, regardless of the standard, and if we don't follow up with development from the ground up then the whole thing is pointless anyway. In the case of nations like the USA, Canada and Lebanon, we're talking about countries that have been playing the sport for a fraction of the time of the big 3, clearly there is no easy way for these nations to reach the level of those that have been playing for 100+ years but that doesn't mean we should give up or not bother trying, there are no quick fixes, it's just a long, hard road that these nations need to take in order to reach the level where they might be able to compete. It could be 50 years before Canada can realistically take on even a team like France and be expected to be competitive, but if that's how long it takes then so be it.

We shouldn't be afraid of blowout scores, they are inevitable given the nature of RL. If you think the sport at international level is a 'joke' then wait for the World Cup next year, where pretty much every team will be comprised of professional players.

 

[Sam_the_man]

Didn't the Wales RU team get beaten by 96 points a few years ago to South Afreica?

 

[siv]

If you had World Cup without the big 3 - it would be a very good series

In recent years after Australia just pulled away from ALL nations 30 years ago we saw England and NZ start catching up with Australia after playing regular annual matches against Australia

Its vitally important thet the better Tier 2 nations gets the opportunity to pllay annually against one of the big 3

This can be done by a simple Euro 4 Nations (with England) and a Pacific 4 Nations (with NZ) during the SOO period on standa alone rep weekends

And then going back and playing in a end of season 6 Nation Tier 2 Euro Cup's and Pacific Cups

The RLWC will look good beacuse NRL and ESL starts will turn out for these Tier 2 nations. Only by playing more regular tests and a U20's RLWC will we see NRL and ESL players turn out more for these nations

Right now we have a BIG club v country issue within the NRL

 

[JasonE]

I didn't see the game but i knew Wales would struggle when i saw their halfback pairing and this is where Wales need to strengthen before the WC.
I am confident that with the inclusion of players like Rhys Williams, Tyson Frizell, Lloyd White and Jake Emmitt that they will be stronger in other areas but don't see many other halfback options other than the injured youngster Ollie Olds.

 

[East Coast Tiger]

Said it when the draw came out and will say it again now - Wales will not get through its Group at the WC. They tried to give them a free ride by putting them up against weak sides, but those sides aren't actually as weak as Wales is.

 

[S.S.T.I.D]

The only way a dozen nations will be competitive in 10 - 20 years time is if those nations have at least 20 half decent players playing week in week out in the NRL, ESL and the SuperXIII if it exists. This is perhaps possible for Aus, Eng, NZ, Fiji, Tonga, Samoa, PNG, Wales, France, Ireland, Scotland, Italy(?) but very unlikely for some of these.

Playing these internationals is a necessary but no where close to a sufficient measure.

I couldn't agree more. I'm not sure what getting pumped by 70 is going to do for any nation and no amount of 70 point losses is going to improve the quality if it is semi-pro vs pro. The answer is certainly a concerted effort to get these nations with 20 odd professional players in the NRL and ESL. Much easier said than done, and I don't know practically how this is made possible, but that is the way forward. These scores will exist for as long as you have professional vs semi-pro players.

 

[Broncos thats my team]

Yer I really hope that the French pro comp gets up...could help the game a lot.

 

[Bronco Rob]

I couldn't agree more. I'm not sure what getting pumped by 70 is going to do for any nation and no amount of 70 point losses is going to improve the quality if it is semi-pro vs pro. The answer is certainly a concerted effort to get these nations with 20 odd professional players in the NRL and ESL. Much easier said than done, and I don't know practically how this is made possible, but that is the way forward. These scores will exist for as long as you have professional vs semi-pro players.

I'll give you an idea I've had for years to make the 2nd and 3rd tier nationas stronger. If the there were salary cap exemptions or even discounts for players from developing nations, NRL/ESL clubs would invest in development of these nations. But the exemption would only be eligible if they were to play for their home nation. It would not only increase the playing talent of the comps and also build a stronger International game which then would raise the profile of the sport around the globe.

 

[Evil Homer]

I'll give you an idea I've had for years to make the 2nd and 3rd tier nationas stronger. If the there were salary cap exemptions or even discounts for players from developing nations, NRL/ESL clubs would invest in development of these nations. But the exemption would only be eligible if they were to play for their home nation. It would not only increase the playing talent of the comps and also build a stronger International game which then would raise the profile of the sport around the globe.

It's a good idea but I'm not sure we can contrive things like that. Given the amount and quality of juniors coming through, in 5 or so years Wales should have at least a full 17 of full-time players, and a team to be reckoned with certainly for the rest of the tier 2 nations. It will always be difficult for these nations given the fact that they don't have the infrastructure that England and Australia do, but I don't see any reason why Wales couldn't be on the same level as New Zealand if they concentrate on bringing through quality juniors as they are doing at present. The key is getting them into top systems at an early age.

 

[deal.with.it]

Although not quite 68 point margins, lets not forget australia flogging new zealand at westpac only a few years ago. Or a little further back australia flogging GB.

Now we have nz beating australia in series finals, losing by small scorelines in one off games, england beating nz in northern hemisphere etc...

If we could all have the foresight to see that in 5 years time Wales will be much more competitive. And not solely because they will have more full time professional players, but because they are also building the infrastructure in Wales.

It sucks the scoreline was a blow out. But those scorelines happen in all sports.

I think the match was very similar to the Aus NZ game at westpac back a few years ago. There was a small crowd, bugger all from the ground announcer geeing up the crowd, barely any music (the same song was played after every try!).

If the match was properly staged, im sure Wales would have played on more of an adrenalin rush. But it was just a really lack-luster match.

Plenty of things to improve in, on and off the pitch.

 

[PacificCoastRL]

Debate aside, and I think in many respects we are arguing apples and oranges, the biggest disappointment for me was the size of the crowd. Very poor. What would the numbers be if this were a rugby union game or a soccer game between England and Wales. I venture to say the crowd would have been at least 10 times larger. I don't profess to know exactly what goes on with rugby league in Wales, but it would seem to me that many have dropped the ball in regards to bringing the game to Wales. To me, Wales seems, from a social perspective, to be a country that would embrace rugby league. It's the working man's game, or it was in its infancy and, as many of you know, many Welsh union players used to play league under assumed names to avoid banishment from union. I can't believe it isn't the football code of choice in that country.
As an aside. I have met and had a long conversation with a fellow, who after being born and raised in South Africa, and then moving to Wales at a young age was one of those players that played league under an assumed identity. He lives about an hour from me on Vancouver Island. We got talking during a union game here where I live. I don't even remember the score of that game. We talked for the full 80 minutes and then for another hour or so at the social after the game. It was interesting stuff.

 

[Springs]

OK, I'll say this. I didn't watch the game today so don't really know how things went. Some of you have said that Wales didn't play too bad, all things considered. But really, 80-12. Wales considered by some as the bench mark for second tier nations and England considered third out of the Big Three. A perfect example of why international rugby league is a joke and is not the best way to showcase the sport throughout the world. What do you think the score would be if England were to play the Americans or Canadians. Would we see triple digits from England? Yeah, that will peak the interest of those in North America. Another case for an expanded WCC to bring the great game of rugby league to the uninitiated. Let the daggers fly!!!

You really have no idea do you? International rugby league is a joke because of a big scoreline? Do you want me to list some of the results of last year's Rugby World Cup?? Wales performed a lot better, with a better side, in last year's Four Nations as well.

Why would it matter what the score will be if England played USA? I suppose you think the only way to get interest from the USA is to have a national side that will be immediately competitive against the top teams?! What kind of f**ked reasoning is that?

There's no reasoning with some people. Complain that the lower teams aren't playing the bigger teams because it's a joke, then complain that it's a joke because the bigger team flogged the lower team.

We only first expanded the World Cup 17 years ago. Many of the teams that will play next year have only been going since then. Soccer has had tons of countries playing from the get go, Rugby has had a lot of advantages as well. We have had to build from the ground up for a lot of teams very recently. We have always been the working man's game, the battler's game, and this is just another hard battle. We'll get there.

 

[roughyedspud]

just going back to talking about the game for a second......we really need to cut of the dropped balls..over the past couple of years we've shown we don't have a problem scoring tries against australia or NZ.....its the errors that kill us..especially against australia.......

 

[Evil Homer]

Debate aside, and I think in many respects we are arguing apples and oranges, the biggest disappointment for me was the size of the crowd. Very poor. What would the numbers be if this were a rugby union game or a soccer game between England and Wales. I venture to say the crowd would have been at least 10 times larger. I don't profess to know exactly what goes on with rugby league in Wales, but it would seem to me that many have dropped the ball in regards to bringing the game to Wales. To me, Wales seems, from a social perspective, to be a country that would embrace rugby league. It's the working man's game, or it was in its infancy and, as many of you know, many Welsh union players used to play league under assumed names to avoid banishment from union. I can't believe it isn't the football code of choice in that country.

RL was an amateur sport in Wales until 2006. I don't think it was even played in North Wales, certainly not on a regular basis, until 2010, so it's not surprising that the crowds can't rival RU or football which have been entrenched for a century or more.

I think what you're failing to understand in all of this is that RL is at an extremely low stage of development internationally. As someone said, until the mid 90's there were literally 5 nations playing the game. We all want results, but there's no way you can expect things to happen instantly without a lot of hard work. England v France next week will be lucky to top 10k, because it's effectively a trial series and France aren't a draw at present, everyone expects England to win easily. We'll see what Wales can pull for meaningful games next year, this was really a non-entity of a match and certainly no measure of the potential or whatever in Wales.

 

[PacificCoastRL]

Homer - What I am saying is that I can't understand why rugby league hasn't been the football code of choice in Wales. I understand what the situation is now. I just can't believe that rugby league hasn't had more of a presence in Wales from the beginning in 1895, or at least early in the 1900's. As documented many Welsh union players would play league under assumed names. Why wasn't the will there to bring rugby league into Wales, which is on the doorstep of the heartland of rugby league. I'm not pointing fingers, I'm looking for answers.

 

[Evil Homer]

Homer - What I am saying is that I can't understand why rugby league hasn't been the football code of choice in Wales. I understand what the situation is now. I just can't believe that rugby league doesn't have more of a presence in Wales. As documented many Welsh union players would play league under assumed names. Why wasn't the will there to bring rugby league into Wales, which is on the doorstep of the heartland of rugby league. I'm not pointing fingers, I'm looking for answers.

I understand that but you can't really make a comment on the sporting landscape of a country without having ever been there or really knowing anything about the place. RL doesn't have a presence, just because it historically doesn't. Most Welsh rugby fans respect RL but RU is their sport, that's just the way it is. I guess they never had any reason to switch. The majority of people in Wales are not rugby fans and don't really know anything about RU, certainly they have no interest at club level, they just jump on the bandwagon of the national team during international season because it's built up a big occasion and is part of their heritage. Either way, RL just doesn't really come into the equation and up until recently has had no reason to, there was virtually no activity until 2006 and it was only in 2008 that the Wales team was really legitimized when 'Great Britain' was scrapped. As I've said, it's a very difficult and long process for a sport to enter the public consciousness especially at a national level and we're only barely scratching the surface in that regard. Hopefully the World Cup will provide a big boost next year.

 

[franklin2323]

Wales performed a lot better, with a better side, in last year's Four Nations as well.

Wales was decent enough in the four nations but there's atleast 5 players that didn't play even without hertiage players.

It's a concern that if injuries occur similar scorelines will happen in the WC. A good WC for any smaller nation can set up the next 5 years.

I am surprised the game didn't really fly in Wales after the 00 WC. The likes or Harris, Cunningham & co would of been great to use in promotion as they were known all over the world.

 

[Teddyboy]

Debate aside, and I think in many respects we are arguing apples and oranges, the biggest disappointment for me was the size of the crowd. Very poor. What would the numbers be if this were a rugby union game or a soccer game between England and Wales. I venture to say the crowd would have been at least 10 times larger. I don't profess to know exactly what goes on with rugby league in Wales, but it would seem to me that many have dropped the ball in regards to bringing the game to Wales. To me, Wales seems, from a social perspective, to be a country that would embrace rugby league. It's the working man's game, or it was in its infancy and, as many of you know, many Welsh union players used to play league under assumed names to avoid banishment from union. I can't believe it isn't the football code of choice in that country.
As an aside. I have met and had a long conversation with a fellow, who after being born and raised in South Africa, and then moving to Wales at a young age was one of those players that played league under an assumed identity. He lives about an hour from me on Vancouver Island. We got talking during a union game here where I live. I don't even remember the score of that game. We talked for the full 80 minutes and then for another hour or so at the social after the game. It was interesting stuff.

Hope none of the visiting NFL team for the Wembley game caught a glimpse of the game as they would think our own game is not popular.

 

[Indelible]

just going back to talking about the game for a second......we really need to cut of the dropped balls..over the past couple of years we've shown we don't have a problem scoring tries against australia or NZ.....its the errors that kill us..especially against australia.......

Scoreline aside, some very encouraging signs for England. Competition for spots, and some promising performances from Watkins, last 20 minutes from Hock, and Mossop when he was on. Surely Houghton > Mcilorum

Watkins to the NRL now - dude could be anything.