Watching the 05 grand final and...

[macnaz]

Bigger lose than Prince.. as if.

 

[Vic Mackey]

We had prince for 3 years and made the finals once

We had Lui for 2 years, made the top 4 on both occasions, lost him and then came 10th with virtually the same side that made the top4 the 2 years previous

 

[madunit]

The players around Lui were shitloads better than those around Prince, who was also our captain for near half his time here.

Lui's first 10 games were hopeless, but as i said, he improved over time.

All we really lost when he left was stability in the halves, and history shows that this is what ensured success at Tigers since 2005.

 

[innsaneink]

His first games he was ''hopeless'' because he was playing out of position, and - like all young blokes beginning to play with marshall....he was told to take a back seat

Whats most important was the improvement shown in him over time due to the patience and persistence in sticking with him in ONE position, even though he'd have been more comfortable in his position of 5/8

 

[Vic Mackey]

The players around Lui were shitloads better than those around Prince, who was also our captain for near half his time here.

Lui's first 10 games were hopeless, but as i said, he improved over time.

All we really lost when he left was stability in the halves, and history shows that this is what ensured success at Tigers since 2005.

Exactly, the players around lui were shitloads better, which shows why a team with these players coming 10th makes the halfback of the previous 2 years a massive loss

We had stability for 3 years with jmo and benji in the halves, didn't help us much.

 

[madunit]

We didn't have stability with JMo.
2006 (Prince's last year, before Morris) - 7 halves combinations
2007 - 6 halves combinations
2008 - 5 halves combinations
2009 - 6 halves combinations (Lui's debut was the 5th combination)
2010 - 6 halves combinations
2011 - 4 halves combinations
2012 - 9 halves combinations

Longest lasting halves combinations (2006-2012) - (Five-Eighth & Halfback - games)
Marshall & Lui - 41
Morris & Marshall - 17
Marshall & Moltzen - 14
Marshall & Morris - 12
Marshall & Prince - 9
Marshall & Farah - 9
Marshall & Head - 7
Fitzhenry & Prince - 6
Ayshford & Marshall - 6
Lawrence & Marshall - 6
Elford & Prince - 5
Sironen & Marshall - 5
Fulton & Morris - 4
Morris & Farah - 4
Moltzen & Morris - 4
Marshall & Humble - 4
Lawrence & Morris - 3
Morris & Head - 3
Fulton & Marshall - 3
Marshall & Lazarus - 2
Marshall & Miller - 2
Prince & Reynolds - 1
Lolesi & Prince - 1
Prince & Farah - 1
Hodgson & Prince - 1
Whatuira & Marshall - 1
Miller & Lui - 1
Moltzen & Marshall - 1

so to have only one halves combo with more than 20 games over a 7 year span, and a total of 173 games, it's clear to see why 2010-2011 were our best years. Of those 53 games, Marshall & Lui were together for 38 of them.

 

[Matchball]

The plethora of information that is madunit.

Bow to him.

 

[Ron's_Mate]

Interesting stats.
Sheens really outdid himself in 2012.

 

[Matchball]

Imagine tnt and Kori on the wings..

Id still take a injury free Pat Richards over both.

 

[Vic Mackey]

We didn't have stability with JMo.
2006 (Prince's last year, before Morris) - 7 halves combinations
2007 - 6 halves combinations
2008 - 5 halves combinations
2009 - 6 halves combinations (Lui's debut was the 5th combination)
2010 - 6 halves combinations
2011 - 4 halves combinations
2012 - 9 halves combinations

Longest lasting halves combinations (2006-2012) - (Five-Eighth & Halfback - games)
Marshall & Lui - 41
Morris & Marshall - 17
Marshall & Moltzen - 14
Marshall & Morris - 12
Marshall & Prince - 9
Marshall & Farah - 9
Marshall & Head - 7
Fitzhenry & Prince - 6
Ayshford & Marshall - 6
Lawrence & Marshall - 6
Elford & Prince - 5
Sironen & Marshall - 5
Fulton & Morris - 4
Morris & Farah - 4
Moltzen & Morris - 4
Marshall & Humble - 4
Lawrence & Morris - 3
Morris & Head - 3
Fulton & Marshall - 3
Marshall & Lazarus - 2
Marshall & Miller - 2
Prince & Reynolds - 1
Lolesi & Prince - 1
Prince & Farah - 1
Hodgson & Prince - 1
Whatuira & Marshall - 1
Miller & Lui - 1
Moltzen & Marshall - 1

so to have only one halves combo with more than 20 games over a 7 year span, and a total of 173 games, it's clear to see why 2010-2011 were our best years. Of those 53 games, Marshall & Lui were together for 38 of them.

Marshall and Morris played 29 games together, thats plenty of stability, the only reason sheens changed combos until 2012 was due to injuries.

Anyways stats can prove or disprove anything, for instance you have Lazarus playing 2 games at halfback. Yet he played the 2nd game entirely at fullback and in the first about 30mins on the wing and was subbed midway through the second half.

Go back and watch a game on nrl.com from 2010-11, just about any game and you will see that Lui was great for us. The other day I watched the 2011 semi against the dragons. Lui instigated our second half comeback and set up the two tries with great short balls, meanwhile benji was throwing passes 2m behind Ellis and putting in stupid grubber kicks.

 

[madunit]

I didn't say Lui was completely shit.

I said he gave our halves stability, which we didn't have prior to him and didn't have after him.

Morris and Marshall played 29 games in the halves, 17 times Morris was second receiver, 12 times he was first receiver.

They are different roles and many people understand and acknowledge that Benji plays much better at 6. Whichever way you want to look at it, they are two different combinations.

The stats in this case paint a very clear picture, and that is one of utter confusion over the halves combinations of 5 of the last 7 seasons.

Lui provided stability, that was his biggest asset. He became a competent enough halfback, but that was by no means his strength to the side.

2012 showed us what having unstable halves does to a side. All we needed in 2012 was an average first grade halfback who could hold his own, just like Lui did, and we would've made the finals.

I'm sorry Vic, I agree that stats can be interpreted differently, but in this case they paint a very clear picture and I just can't see an alternate argument against them having much legs.

 

[madunit]

Furthermore, 29 games out of a possible 72 isn't stability. That's not even half of the possible games they could have played together. And they didn't keep the same positions for those 29 either, nor did they play long strings of those games consecutively, like Marshall and Lui did.

 

[Vic Mackey]

When Morris and benji played, Morris played right and benji played left. Whether they wore 6 or 7 didn't change at all. The only time sheens changed them was due to injury, until midway through 2009 when he finally bit the bullet and dumped Morris to the bench, unsurprisingly we went on a 7 game or whatever it was winning streak.

Morris played every possible game in his 3 years at the tigers, that sounds like plenty of stability to me.

Do you honestly think we would have made the top 4 in 10/11 if we had Morris, Lazarus, Ayshford, Fulton or Lawrence in the halves with benji?

There were many games when lui was actually the smart play maker in the side. He would kick to the corners etc when benji ran it on the last from inside our half. Benji and Farah also trusted him and would often shift to him. Lui is still a monumental loss, Miller is a great prospect but at the same age lui was bounds ahead of where he is.

 

[super_coach]

I actually think Lui out played Benji in the big games in 2011 and 2012. As I said before he did have defensive problems but the team had great shape in attack because he was a ball playing no7 that would take the line on. Anyway it seems that their seems to be plenty who dont agree and thats what forums are all about