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WCW 1999-2000 v WWE 2017-18

Big Pete

Referee
Messages
28,980
I'm not convinced that today's talent is of such a high quality.

I tend to agree.

As talented as guys like Johnny Gargano, Ricochet, Aleister Black and Tommaso Ciampa are, t wasn't like they were drawing huge houses before they came to the WWE. They're wonderful mechanics, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're main event attractions.

The problem with the WWE is that they refuse to evolve. They keep relying on the same tricks that worked decades ago, without understanding why they worked. A lot of the success of the Attitude Era was born out of novelty. Everything on the show felt fresh and unlike anything in Pro Wrestling. The WWE haven't found that next movement, and while they're doing a decent job with the women, it isn't clicking at the level it should.

I believe AEW has a better finger on the pulse and will have a bigger influence on the industry than the WWE will over the coming years. Everyone they've got involved know how to draw houses and they're the fresh perspective the industry sorely needs.
 

Big Pete

Referee
Messages
28,980
yes this is true and not sure why they didn't stay the course with Goldberg in 1999, instead they put him in a feud with Bam Bam although having said that him running through the NWO would have just been a rehash of the previous year.

Kevin Nash, when defending the finger poke of doom in interviews says Goldberg was meant to go through everybody but then put his hand through a limo window and injured himself. One problem, that was in early 2000 during the NWO revival which was yet another attempt at the Goldberg going through the NWO storyline.

Tell me about it, one of my biggest bug bears is that Sean Oliver has never once tried calling him out on it.

Bam Bam and Goldberg would have been an excellent feud coming off of Starrcade. The initial angle with Bam Bam breaking into the building, destroying two jobbers forcing Bischoff and JJ out to ring-side was great TV. However, by the time they paid the angle off it had lost all it's heat and Bam Bam was never the same afterwards.

I still think there was plenty of money to be made in the Goldberg/nWo rivalry. After winning the WCW Title, Goldberg should have been a marked man defending his belt from all comers. He should have been feuding with The Giant, Scott Norton, Stevie Ray, Bret Hart etc. and defying the odds at every turn.

Yet in their infinite wisdom, WCW decided to shift the focus from Goldberg to the Warrior and lost an amazing opportunity to win back the audience from the WWF. Within weeks, Goldberg went from mixing it up with The Giant and Kevin Nash to finding himself facing Al Green and Scott Putski. Stone Cold Steve Austin would never work with a talent like Funaki or Scott Taylor, so why would Goldberg even give these guys the time of day?

WCW lost their focus and it hurt their biggest star.

As much as I disagree with the decision at Starrcade 1998, the Fingerpoke of Doom angle would have provided the company the direction they sorely needed.
 
Messages
2,839
Talentwise, modern WWE doesnt compare to that era in the slightest, as has already been said.

They may be able to go in the ring, but we wouldnt know, due to the 50-50 restholdathons. I mean, look at f**king Nakamura.

As has been said, the WWE are doing their best impression of what Raw used to be, coupled with watered down indy-style matches. AEW, as far as a product is concerned (not business-wise), will be giving them a run for the money in this area imo.
 

Valheru

Coach
Messages
17,652
Tell me about it, one of my biggest bug bears is that Sean Oliver has never once tried calling him out on it.

Bam Bam and Goldberg would have been an excellent feud coming off of Starrcade. The initial angle with Bam Bam breaking into the building, destroying two jobbers forcing Bischoff and JJ out to ring-side was great TV. However, by the time they paid the angle off it had lost all it's heat and Bam Bam was never the same afterwards.

I still think there was plenty of money to be made in the Goldberg/nWo rivalry. After winning the WCW Title, Goldberg should have been a marked man defending his belt from all comers. He should have been feuding with The Giant, Scott Norton, Stevie Ray, Bret Hart etc. and defying the odds at every turn.

Yet in their infinite wisdom, WCW decided to shift the focus from Goldberg to the Warrior and lost an amazing opportunity to win back the audience from the WWF. Within weeks, Goldberg went from mixing it up with The Giant and Kevin Nash to finding himself facing Al Green and Scott Putski. Stone Cold Steve Austin would never work with a talent like Funaki or Scott Taylor, so why would Goldberg even give these guys the time of day?

WCW lost their focus and it hurt their biggest star.

As much as I disagree with the decision at Starrcade 1998, the Fingerpoke of Doom angle would have provided the company the direction they sorely needed.

Yep just one in a long line of booking mishaps.

Slightly off topic but out of interest how would you have handled the post starrcade 1997 booking and the debacle that was the non fast count finish in the main event?
 

Iafeta

Referee
Messages
24,357
I'm not convinced that today's talent is of such a high quality.

Most of them have zero personality. They are great in the ring, but everything is too scripted and doesn't grab the viewer. There's f**k all emotion in today's production.

Saying that, WCW was definitely worse. WWE today is complacent as f**k. They need AEW to kick arse, as it will force WWE to get innovative again and has the potential to improve its product markedly.

They drifted so far away from what made them successful

Ronda Rousey and Becky Lynch literally have been exchanging tweets saying things like “I don’t care what the script says I have to do”.

Then there’s a couple of others tweeting that you would swear are being ghost written by 6 year old girls in between braiding Barbies hair. No heat. It sounds like play scaring a new born puppy.

Suspend my disbelief? Not for a nanosecond.
 

Big Pete

Referee
Messages
28,980
Yep just one in a long line of booking mishaps.

Slightly off topic but out of interest how would you have handled the post starrcade 1997 booking and the debacle that was the non fast count finish in the main event?

I would have thrown millions of dollars at Pat Patterson so he could come in and lay out the matches.

After Starrcade '97 there was only one direction to go in - Sting vs. Hogan II. One tweak that I would have made to the rematch is have Bret officiate the match. Since he was such a large part of the Starrcade '97 finish, it only makes sense for Bret to be involved here. I also like the idea of Bret being the special guest referee because he was such an honorable character and it makes sense for WCW to go with a trained wrestler. I also think it makes for good television in the lead-up, with Bret clarifying his position in the company and the nWo sending him overtures. You could even make his friendship with Hennig an element of his character - which was some of the nuanced reality based story-telling that made WCW a cut above in 96/97.

Sting naturally wins the match, Hogan goes on a sabbatical and you eventually go with Sting/Bret around May/June. I don't think it's a match you want to get to right away, you want to plant the seeds first and remind everybody how much of a dream match Sting vs. Bret is.

I'd ignore the temptation of running Hogan/Bret since Hulk had just jobbed on three consecutive PPVs and would have to be rehabbed. I like the idea of giving Hogan a couple of months off to recharge his batteries and bringing him into feud with DDP. What I like about Page is that he understood a good opportunity when he saw it, so even if it meant doing the favours, he'd understand how important it was for his character to go toe-to-toe with Hogan.

It may sound sacriligeous but Sting's performances in 98 weren't up to muster. Sting was in poor shape and struggled to implement his persona into matches. When the time was right, I would have switched the belt over to Bret.

As soon as Bret signed with WCW, he should have instantly become the new favourite toy. There was a lot of directions you could have taken the character and it was nearly impossible for him to have a bad match with anybody. I would be made the most of the investment and put the belt on him around June, had him face off against the Kliq and you eventually get to the Hogan/Bret match around Halloween Havoc. You could have Bret win the first match and have Hogan win the second and the belt, either way, Starrcade 1998 at the Georgia Dome would be Hollywood Hogan vs. Bill Goldberg for the WCW Title.

In summary, I'd build to a rematch that would set the rest of 1998 in motion. The match would sign-post upcoming Bret/Sting and Bret/Hogan matches, which would give the fans something to look forward to. I would eventually roll with Bret as champion, freshen the show up and when the time was right, have Hogan win the belt. Then at Starrcade 1998, Hogan would do the favours for Bill and 1999 would be Goldberg's year.
 
Messages
2,839
My Starrcade 1998:

WCW World Heavyweight Championship
Sting (c) v Goldberg

Hogan's Redemption - No DQ

Hulk Hogan v Raven

War Games
The Horsemen (Ric Flair, Chris Benoit, Dean Malenko and The Giant) v The Dungeon (Bret Hart, British Bulldog, Jim Neidhart and Chris Jericho)

WCW United States Championship
Diamond Dallas Page (c) v Scott Steiner

The Wolfpac Implodes - WCW World Tag Team Championships
The Outsiders (Kevin Nash and Scott Hall) v The Filthy Animals (Eddie Guerrero and Konaan)

WCW Cruiserweight Championship
Rey Mysterio, jr. v Juventud Guerrera

Blood Runs Cold Four Way Dance
Mortis and Wrath v Glacier and The Cat

#1 Contenders for the Tag Team Titles
Harlem Heat v Perry Saturn and a mystery opponent (Randy Savage)
 

Big Pete

Referee
Messages
28,980
WCW World Heavyweight Championship
Sting (c) v Goldberg

Sting was out with a knee injury.

Hogan's Redemption - No DQ
Hulk Hogan v Raven

I've seen this idea bandied about, and I hate it. Outside of the DDP feud, Raven was a lower mid-card act while Hogan was the biggest star in the company. It'd be like putting Steve Austin in a program with Cyrus. Sure it could work, but it feels completely unrealistic and detatched of it's historical context.

War Games
The Horsemen (Ric Flair, Chris Benoit, Dean Malenko and The Giant) v The Dungeon (Bret Hart, British Bulldog, Jim Neidhart and Chris Jericho)

Bret and Bulldog were both injured and War Games was a Fall Brawl tradition. The visual of having two rings at Starrcade would be odd.

WCW United States Championship
Diamond Dallas Page (c) v Scott Steiner

Scott Steiner was injured.

#1 Contenders for the Tag Team Titles
Harlem Heat v Perry Saturn and a mystery opponent (Randy Savage)

Booker T and Savage were both injured. The Saturn/Savage team would be completely random.
 
Messages
2,839
Lets try that again then :joy:

WCW WORLD TITLE
Hollywood Hogan (c) v Bill Goldberg

HORSEMEN V DUNGEON 3
Bret Hart v Ric Flair

WCW UNITED STATES TITLE
Diamond Dallas Page (c) v Booker T

HORSEMEN V DUNGEON 2
Chris Benoit v Chris Jericho

THE WOLFPAC IMPLODES - WCW WORLD TAG TITLES
The Outsiders (Nash and Hall) v The Filthy Animals (Eddie and Konaan)

RAVEN'S RULES - WCW TV TITLE
Raven (c) v Saturn

BLOOD RUNS COLD
Mortis v Wrath v Glacier v The Cat

HORSEMEN V DUNGEON 1
Lex Lugar and The Giant v British Bulldog and Jim Neidhart

WCW CRUISERWEIGHT TITLE
Dean Malenko (c) v Rey Mysterio, jr.
 

Shaun Hewitt

First Grade
Messages
6,354
Starcade 98 was the defining moment I remember for when it went downhill for WCW.
Prior to that, I remember (with my nostalgic glasses on) being in love with WCW.

Before that, I was a WCW fan through and through, from then I was more a WWF guy.
 

mackdadday

Juniors
Messages
1,038
Raven had all the tools to be in there with anyone. If you watch the birth of the flock on youtube you can see the guy was the best on the mic in WCW and it was clear that a choice was made to pass him by just when he was peaking. Raven versus a full-flung face Hogan would have been great.
 

Valheru

Coach
Messages
17,652
The whole Horsemen V Dungeon idea has been bandied about for a long time but I thought the whole point was for Benoit to turn on the horsemen in favour of the Dungeon?
 

Shaun Hewitt

First Grade
Messages
6,354
Lets try that again then :joy:

WCW WORLD TITLE
Hollywood Hogan (c) v Bill Goldberg

HORSEMEN V DUNGEON 3
Bret Hart v Ric Flair

WCW UNITED STATES TITLE
Diamond Dallas Page (c) v Booker T

HORSEMEN V DUNGEON 2
Chris Benoit v Chris Jericho

THE WOLFPAC IMPLODES - WCW WORLD TAG TITLES
The Outsiders (Nash and Hall) v The Filthy Animals (Eddie and Konaan)

RAVEN'S RULES - WCW TV TITLE
Raven (c) v Saturn

BLOOD RUNS COLD
Mortis v Wrath v Glacier v The Cat

HORSEMEN V DUNGEON 1
Lex Lugar and The Giant v British Bulldog and Jim Neidhart

WCW CRUISERWEIGHT TITLE
Dean Malenko (c) v Rey Mysterio, jr.

Starcade98? that would need re-writing some of the prior stuff obviously.

Luger and Giant were at opposite sides.
Konnan was still part of the Wolfpac at this stage as well

Hogan was absent from what I remember as well.
I seem to think Hart was US champion too? Could be wrong.

Although, that said...you're card is actually better than what REALLY happened at Starcade 98 - My aleration would be to add in Kidman and possibly Juventuud into the Cruiserweight match
 

Big Pete

Referee
Messages
28,980
Raven had all the tools to be in there with anyone. If you watch the birth of the flock on youtube you can see the guy was the best on the mic in WCW and it was clear that a choice was made to pass him by just when he was peaking. Raven versus a full-flung face Hogan would have been great.

I'm sure somebody could write a brilliant fan-fiction and it would be a fantastic piece of creative writing, but it wouldn't be a true reflection of the time period. In the grand scheme of things, Raven was a niche character designed to appeal to the hardcore demographic. He was never on the same level as Hogan and there is little evidence that they would hit it off. The only link those two characters had were dropping their respective championships to Goldberg and Horace. Between you and me, I don't think the fans could give a damn about Horace. They certainly didn't when they involved him in the Warrior angle.

Also, I hope my post didn't come across as an attack @Manurewa_Marlins . I always enjoy your perspective on Pro Wrestling, I just wanted to point out what the WCW bookers were up against. I feel like it's easy for us 20+ years later to post a card, especially in a world where injuries don't exist and we don't have to worry about placating the interests of talent.
 
Messages
4,040
I'm sure somebody could write a brilliant fan-fiction and it would be a fantastic piece of creative writing, but it wouldn't be a true reflection of the time period. In the grand scheme of things, Raven was a niche character designed to appeal to the hardcore demographic. He was never on the same level as Hogan and there is little evidence that they would hit it off. The only link those two characters had were dropping their respective championships to Goldberg and Horace. Between you and me, I don't think the fans could give a damn about Horace. They certainly didn't when they involved him in the Warrior angle.

Also, I hope my post didn't come across as an attack @Manurewa_Marlins . I always enjoy your perspective on Pro Wrestling, I just wanted to point out what the WCW bookers were up against. I feel like it's easy for us 20+ years later to post a card, especially in a world where injuries don't exist and we don't have to worry about placating the interests of talent.

Ah and that’s where I think your wrong mr Pete. Raven was on the cusp of becoming a star. He was coming in hot off a big ecw run, had an iconic character for the era (90s indifference grunge man) and was even on the front cover of a wcw game (you can’t suggest that a niche character would’ve got that spot). I think alongside Goldberg and sting maybe??? Was also US champion and from memory gave Goldberg one of his longer matches

Unfortunately the dick bags at wcw kept playing it safe and the character died in the ass. It could’ve been anything IMO
 

Big Pete

Referee
Messages
28,980
Actually it's interesting you bring up the cover of WCW/nWo Revenge because it proves my point. The only reason THQ requested him was because of his reputation and they wanted to sell the game as 'made by the fans, for the fans'. It's why the AKI games are so beloved because it's filled with those nods and easter eggs but it's for another discussion.

515KMDFPWDL._SR600,315_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg


However, the point still remains that Raven was a lower mid-card act and once DDP was finished working with him there was nothing left for him at the top of the card.
 
Messages
4,040
Right, so show me other examples of low to mid card guys getting on the front cover of wrestling games?

Your explanation is hard to follow. They wanted to move units like any other company that’s produced a wrestling game since the 1980s. Why would you put someone on there that isn’t going to move copies (remember it was you that called him niche and only appealing to hardcore fans).
 

Big Pete

Referee
Messages
28,980
NoMercyGameBox.jpg


Here's Edge when he was a tag team wrestler.

Because they already had the three biggest stars in the company to move the product. Raven was included because they wanted a new character and they wanted somebody who represented the smark community.
 
Messages
4,040
NoMercyGameBox.jpg


Here's Edge when he was a tag team wrestler.

Because they already had the three biggest stars in the company to move the product. Raven was included because they wanted a new character and they wanted somebody who represented the smark community.

So edge was lower mid card at that time was he? Ok...

Got proof they wanted someone to represent the smark community?
 
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