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[Big Pete]

The impact the fingerpoke of doom had is often over-stated. Initially the angle was a success spiking ratings which had been sagging in the last quarter of '98. Fans were intrigued by the new nWo Elite angle and wanted to see a babyface bring them to justice.

What they didn't want was a double turn with Flair-Hogan which would see Flair admitted into a mental hospital and feuding with Piper over the presidency of the company.

On that note, I wouldn't have changed much about Starrcade '98 card. WCW was doing fantastic business and Goldberg/Nash, Bischoff/Flair & Kidman/Eddie all work as marquee matches. The problem was the booking was shite and the undercard reads like something you'd see on a Saturday Night. Smiley/Iaukea? Saturn/Miller? Adams & Norton vs Finlay & Flynn? No, no, no, no.

I would have found room for Benoit, Malenko, Booker T, Scott Steiner, Lex Luger, Bam Bam, Hall, Hennig etc.

For starters, the WCW Tag Team Championships were out of commission for too long. Rick Steiner/Kenny Kaos should have been a short term deal and they should have taken the Tag Team division in a new direction with Benoit/Malenko serving as the face of the division. Hennig/Barry were a pretty good team of the day, so I'd have them face off and probably have the heels go over just to build intrigue in the division and rebuild their reputations as superstars.

Booker still had an ongoing feud with Stevie Ray. If you put them in a street fight and just let them brawl in a tight six minute match I'm sure it wouldn't be too offensive.

With Bret injured, DDP holds onto the US Championship. Who better to take on DDP than Jericho? By this point, Jericho was done with the company but I would have done everything in my power to convince him WCW had big plans for him in '99 and we'd use Page to bridge that gap.

Luger/Steiner were working house shows together, it isn't difficult to transplant that onto a PPV with Steiner receiving the rub.

Bam Bam needed to be built as a monster, so with The Giant leaving WCW, it makes sense to have him slay him at Starrcade.

That leaves Hall, who would be my active sub if there were any last minute changes, otherwise I'd keep him for the main event segment.

 

[Iafeta]

certainly initially especially if you had the nWo still around. He had a lot of people from his past with potential gripes to turn into storylines: Hogan (WM9), Nash and Hall (Shawn's boys) etc.

But lets face it, the fued everyone wanted but never got was a big money rivalry between him and Flair. WCW was Flair country, especially in the wake of the nWo fued, so having Bret play bad guy is only natural. Now, you could give him a different angle to be the heel. Perhaps he calls out the Horsemen for being a thing of the past, perhaps he calls blames them for the nWo being able to run amuck for such a long time. Hey, maybe he and the Dungeon are the ones who vanquish the nWo, and at the conclusion to the inring celebrations the following night on Nitro, he refuses to shake Flair's hand. Hmm I like that idea.

I actually reckon the biggest feuds for Hart would have been Hogan, Sting, and I would have him fed a bit with longer matches than usual to Goldberg. Take away the mis timed super kick , Goldberg could have learned a lot from Hart in the ring.

 

[Manurewa_Marlins]

Oh totally room for a Bret/Hogan fued, and you could probably do that right off the bat following the Starcade 97 schmozz.

Pete, Bam Bam smashing The Giant...I like that a lot.

 

[Iafeta]

Speaking of the Giant, WTF are they doing with their bizarro booking that he wanted out. He should have been booked with ease - at that stage of his career he's pure money.

Stable wise, how underrated in hindsight are the Filthy Animals, Revolution and Jersey Shore Triad? And West Texas Rednecks were classics.

 

[Big Pete]

WCW wasn't big enough for him and Nash. Nash made sure you could only have one Giant and so Paul kept siding himself with Hogan so he could have some stroke in the company.

If it was up to me, once the Giant turned babyface in '97, he would have been a babyface for life and existed on his own island.

However the word is Vince got into the Giant's ear, pitched him a Wrestlemania program with Austin and how much more money he'd be earning and it was just too good to pass on.

The Filthy Animals were underrated the moment they were given that god awful name. I know it was a Disco Inferno pitch and that was his nickname for that group but dear god nobody is going to buy a Filthy Animal T-Shirt.

I loved the Revolution adopting Saturn's Manson inspired theme and the concept of taking the Triple Threat from ECW and adding Saturn sounded awesome on paper. Unfortunately they had nobody to feud with and Russo kept messing with them. One positive is that they started doing the 'kooky' Saturn character in 99, a full year ahead of his run in the WWF with Terri and Moppy.

I love the Triad, even if was originally supposed to be Raven's stable, the idea of having a brand new Freebirds was really cool and a nice way to put guys like Kidman, Rey, Benoit and Malenko over.

WCW 2000 had some decent groups as well. Three Count was recently referenced on TNA, the Jung Dragons had some great matches, Team Canada is the hottest Lance Storm ever got over and I could be in the minority but the Natural Born Thrillers were fun to watch. If you check them out versus The Filthy Animals you could see a ton of potential in O'Haire and Jindrak. Even the shameless D-X Army rip-off M.I.A. had some strong points.

 

[Iafeta]

Team Canada was cool. After they completely dropped the ball on Mike Awesome after how well he debuted, this was his best period because he could be a bit more serious for a minute. Lance Storm was great. They booked his arrival brilliantly but really it seemed Team Canada was more a vehicle to get him air time rather than get him pushed.

The NBT were good too. Finally it seemed they were going to put over young talent. Sean O'Haire was outstanding, Sanders was a good promo (could have been their Jim Cornette type heel) and Palumbo had value. Never liked Reno much though.

I think with Russos time, if he could just cut the ridiculous match gimmicks and the shoddy pay off matches being screw jobs they could have got some good talent over. He at least seemed to try to develop new talent and give their characters meaning. It just was more sit com slash crash TV, whereas WCW and NWA in my opinion was at its best when it was at least 70% match v angle ratios.

 

[BallAndAllTackle]

Team Canada was cool. After they completely dropped the ball on Mike Awesome after how well he debuted, this was his best period because he could be a bit more serious for a minute. Lance Storm was great. They booked his arrival brilliantly but really it seemed Team Canada was more a vehicle to get him air time rather than get him pushed.

The NBT were good too. Finally it seemed they were going to put over young talent. Sean O'Haire was outstanding, Sanders was a good promo (could have been their Jim Cornette type heel) and Palumbo had value. Never liked Reno much though.

I think with Russos time, if he could just cut the ridiculous match gimmicks and the shoddy pay off matches being screw jobs they could have got some good talent over. He at least seemed to try to develop new talent and give their characters meaning. It just was more sit com slash crash TV, whereas WCW and NWA in my opinion was at its best when it was at least 70% match v angle ratios.

Good points, though the thing with Russo is that he needed to be part of a team rather than doing it all on his own, where his ego and ideas ran wild. Its why some of his WWE material worked so well (Survivor Series 98 is a good example) and his time in WCW largely bombed, when everything had to be a swerve.

 

[Iafeta]

Lol Mean Gene is so loose. WCW had no standards. After Juvis first match he interviews him, and cuts him off because Juvi is speaking nothing but Spanish with some broken Spanglish. Then Chris Jericho debuts against Alex Wright, Jericho talks post match, and Alex Wright then tries to get a word in and he goes "no time for you pal, go and Ice that injury". The amount of times Mean Gene is caught out saying under his breath but clearly audible "pal stand on this side of me, the cameras right there" is hilarious

 

[Iafeta]

So just watched Hogan Sting from Starrrcade. There's two theories. 1, Nick Patrick forgets the finish and counts normal. 2, Hogan paid Patrick to count normal. 1 makes no sense, Nick Patrick is a seasoned pro. This was the biggest match in WCW history. Everyone knows how big this is. They would have gone over this a thousand times without a doubt.

So that orange blond mo bald goo IMO undoubtedly paid off Nick Patrick.

But I have something else to put out there. Was Sting on the take. The reason I say this is you know the count is wrong, you're experienced, you can tell this is wrong. Firstly why doesn't he kick out??? Secondly, he doesn't move for like 10 seconds post match. Why stay down?? There's no protest from Sting.

I've also got to say, while I like Bret seeking Montreal redemption, to me it takes the pop a bit away from Sting. In fact, heavily from Sting. I'm not sure who should have gone out to replace Patrick but I feel Hart kinda overshadows Sting.

 

[Shaun Hewitt]

So, I've signed up for the trial for the network.

Just watched part of the B A T B 96 (the infamous nWo formation)

My gosh what a muddle of opening matches

Psycosis Vs Rey - Decent way to open the card. Started off slow for a CW match of the time, but it didn't take too long till you were wowed.

This was then followed up by Big Bubba (Big Bossman) W/Jimmy Hart Vs John Tenta (Earthquake) in a 'silver dollar match' - Basically a bag of coins on a pole match.

DDP Vs Hacksaw in a fists taped match

And then I stopped watching (to go to sleep) during a texas tornado dog collar tag team bout between Public Enemy and The Nasty Boys

Bless mean Gene, in an interview with the Dungeon of Doom, Mean Gene says to Jimmy Hart 'Without wanting to insult you, would it hurt to brush your teeth'

This was after watching the most recent episode of NXT (I don't have Sky so rely on whatever I can find on YouTube essentially)

Couldn't spot the Nitros there, but to be fair I didn't really look properly. Will do that once I've finished off the Bash.

 

[Shaun Hewitt]

I wonder how the nWo formation would have worked in this day and age.
Would technology ruin it, or are the fans too smart for this now? Or would it have been successful?

One thing I didn't remember, was brain yelling ' whose side is he on' before Hogan made it into the ring. I wonder if that was on purpose, or once he said it if he regretted it.

The other booking way, for it to be have been a surprise would either a) have Hogan announced as Lugers replacement, although that wouldn't make sense or b) Have Luger be the third guy, and have him return to the ring and turn. - NEITHER OF THESE WERE AS GOOD AS WHAT HAPPENED - Just have to state that.

Watching older things, make me re-book it lol

 

[Iafeta]

I think social media is a positive and negative for wrestling. Negative, it certainly helps things leak out. The nWo was great at the time because people were shocked. It wouldn't work if social media was in play back then, because I think it was New Japan already had an invasion stable that had a lot of heat.

The internet was kinda starting then, so it was there, just not to the same standard.

Interestingly, I heard that the bodyguard role was initially pencilled for either Papa Shango or they were thinking Ron Simmons. Papa Shango was basically offered a contract, old meat sauce Vincent himself heard about it and went to WCW offering to do it for $100k per year less. I often wonder how different things may have been if it stayed more elite, and, if they had a more powerful bodyguard. Vincent was often working in tracksuit hoodies and shiz and just looked completely unimpressive.

 

[Shaun Hewitt]

Yeah, when you wrestle in jeans, you really need to do well to impress (exception if its a street fight)

Just approaching World War 3 95
Some of the things are absolutely comical, while other things are great.

I always forget at how good Flyin Brian actually was!

 

[Valheru]

I wonder how the nWo formation would have worked in this day and age.
Would technology ruin it, or are the fans too smart for this now? Or would it have been successful?

One thing I didn't remember, was brain yelling ' whose side is he on' before Hogan made it into the ring. I wonder if that was on purpose, or once he said it if he regretted it.

The other booking way, for it to be have been a surprise would either a) have Hogan announced as Lugers replacement, although that wouldn't make sense or b) Have Luger be the third guy, and have him return to the ring and turn. - NEITHER OF THESE WERE AS GOOD AS WHAT HAPPENED - Just have to state that.

Watching older things, make me re-book it lol

Although it would be much harder, I think something like the NWO formation could be pulled off today in terms of maintaining secrecy. Every now and then WWE pull of a shock that no one saw coming. However, the crowd reaction would never be repeated. People were genuinely pissed with Hogan and felt betrayed to the point of throwing rubbish in the ring. I don't think a heel turn has the ability to generate that reaction in this day and age.

On the Heenan comment, he has copped flak for that over the years and unfairly IMO. It is easy in hindsight to say he gave away the finish but the comment was absolutely within character at the time. He was a heel commentator who had a 10 plus year history, as a character, across both WWF and WCW of despising Hogan. I don't think anyone thought anything of the comment at the time when it aired live.

 

[Valheru]

I have really been getting in to the 80's lately across a number of promotions and I watched the original Starrcade (1983) for the first time the other day. I had always heard great things about the show, specifically its (amongst the other early Starrcades) superiority over the early Wrestlemanias with the exception of Wrestlemania 3. The challenge was always going to be if it held up 34 years later.

The answer is yes and no.

The Orton/Slater vs. Youngblood/McDaniel, Piper vs. Valentine, and Steamboat/Youngblood vs. Briscos were all well worked and enjoyable matches that do a decent enough job of holding up to today's standards albeit a little slow at times.

The main even is a legendary steel cage match between Ric Flair and Harley Race for the NWA world title and it is widely considered a 4.5 star plus match. Unfortunately, it just doesn't hold up to today's standards and pales in comparison to any number of cage matches over the last 25 years. It was very slow and quite boring at times and I couldn't consciously give it anything above 2.5 stars.

On a side note, I had never heard Gordon Solie commentate before and he pronounces suplex as 'suplay' which is a little off putting. I wondered if it was the done thing back then but commentators from WWF, WCCW etc. at the time pronounced it as suplex. I did a bit of research and the term is a French one first used in amateur wrestling where the x is silent and the e has one of those dash symbols above it so 'suplay' is in fact valid.

You learn something new every day.

 

[Shaun Hewitt]

Just a random thought (and now I'm at the back end of the 1995 Nitros, heading towards Starcade...looking forward to reliving the rest)

I really miss Jeff Jarrett circa 2000, crazy booking aside, he had the look, the moves, the weapon (guitar). Something about him from that year just really clicked for me.

Anyway, back to my pit of doom. Nitros have gone up to an hour, from being 45 minutes lol. Not bad actually, can watch a few in a sitting, although I'm watching half an hour at a time or so (in bed, right before going to sleep lol)

 

[Manurewa_Marlins]

re: Jarrett. Awesome midcarder...was never going to be the main eventer they needed. That being said Mike Graham's burial of him on the Rise and Fall DVD was completely unwarrented and came from a place of jealousy and resentment toward J-E-Double-F's father.

Anyone read how Jeff's doing these days after his incident in Canada recently? Is he completely done with TNA now? (again)

 

[Iafeta]

I have really been getting in to the 80's lately across a number of promotions and I watched the original Starrcade (1983) for the first time the other day. I had always heard great things about the show, specifically its (amongst the other early Starrcades) superiority over the early Wrestlemanias with the exception of Wrestlemania 3. The challenge was always going to be if it held up 34 years later.

The answer is yes and no.

The Orton/Slater vs. Youngblood/McDaniel, Piper vs. Valentine, and Steamboat/Youngblood vs. Briscos were all well worked and enjoyable matches that do a decent enough job of holding up to today's standards albeit a little slow at times.

The main even is a legendary steel cage match between Ric Flair and Harley Race for the NWA world title and it is widely considered a 4.5 star plus match. Unfortunately, it just doesn't hold up to today's standards and pales in comparison to any number of cage matches over the last 25 years. It was very slow and quite boring at times and I couldn't consciously give it anything above 2.5 stars.

On a side note, I had never heard Gordon Solie commentate before and he pronounces suplex as 'suplay' which is a little off putting. I wondered if it was the done thing back then but commentators from WWF, WCCW etc. at the time pronounced it as suplex. I did a bit of research and the term is a French one first used in amateur wrestling where the x is silent and the e has one of those dash symbols above it so 'suplay' is in fact valid.

You learn something new every day.

Solie did that his entire career and as noted, he is indeed correct. But I prefer it with the x. Solie and Lance Russell were outstanding commentators of that era.

In terms of slowness in that main event, I think at this point Harley is visibly slowing down. That said, the NWA World Heavyweight Championship matches were often built as slow hour long Broadway's. For a number of reasons. Firstly, it differentiated it heavily from what WWF could offer. Secondly, the Carolinas were used to it, come to expect it, and demanded it. If you went to a big house in the day and the champ didn't go a long time you felt ripped off. Thirdly, it was to separate itself from the rest of the card in that it was very different. Fourth, generally whilst slow, the high spots or transitional comebacks got the crowd right up. They wanted the babyface comeback. The heel could slow the match down and that in itself would get tremendous heat and sell a lot of tickets. Fifth, if you had a heel champ which NWA mostly did (whereas New York was very much a face champion territory), you had an easy out with a time limit draw that kept both strong, and you could keep drawing houses as fans pursued the chase. Because there was no internet you could show the same match to different markets.

I used to think those matches were slow and plodding too. But I've learnt from listening to the likes of Rip Rogers and Jim Cornette about how effective the psychology usually was.

Fwiw, I'm watching a couple of the older territories currently. A great one to watch to see that era in action is Mid South. The likes of JYD (who looks buff compared to his WWF condition), Ted Di Biase as a face, Big Cat Ernie Ladd, Bob Roop, Paul Orndorff and Bob Orton Jr put on really well paced matches that hold up well today.

 

[Valheru]

In terms of slowness in that main event, I think at this point Harley is visibly slowing down. That said, the NWA World Heavyweight Championship matches were often built as slow hour long Broadway's. For a number of reasons. Firstly, it differentiated it heavily from what WWF could offer. Secondly, the Carolinas were used to it, come to expect it, and demanded it. If you went to a big house in the day and the champ didn't go a long time you felt ripped off. Thirdly, it was to separate itself from the rest of the card in that it was very different. Fourth, generally whilst slow, the high spots or transitional comebacks got the crowd right up. They wanted the babyface comeback. The heel could slow the match down and that in itself would get tremendous heat and sell a lot of tickets. Fifth, if you had a heel champ which NWA mostly did (whereas New York was very much a face champion territory), you had an easy out with a time limit draw that kept both strong, and you could keep drawing houses as fans pursued the chase. Because there was no internet you could show the same match to different markets.

I used to think those matches were slow and plodding too. But I've learnt from listening to the likes of Rip Rogers and Jim Cornette about how effective the psychology usually was.

Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with long, well paced matches. The problem with this match is it wasn't that long, it was 'only' 24 minutes. That is not a problem in and of itself but the 24 minutes they spent in the ring was worked at a 60 minute pace which just made the final product boring and underwhelming. The match is grossly overrated IMO.

 

[Iafeta]

Yeah, I think Harley is past his best there. I never thought TV presented him all that well. I think going to a show and watching a tough guy throwing loads of stiff stuff and bleeding everywhere would be cool with Harley.

The matches with Dusty are generally fairly ordinary too. Dusty strikes me as a guy who could work them into a frenzy on the stick but he was somewhat sloppy in ring. I don't think he'd get over now because his style relied heavily on blood