What now International Forum? Hot takes from the past two weeks.

[Burns]

Did last night happen?

My head is spinning from what Tonga have achieved.

It's going to be easy to be swept up in 'Tonga can win in 2021', but realistically, what will happen between now and the next group of International Tests?

• The domestic Tongan scene must be sorted out, by say, February? Full investigation and proper appointments. Cannot afford to get this step wrong.
• Eligibility. Could ... we see more players now pledge loyalty with Tonga/Samoa/Fiji etc? I wonder if Payne Hass, Papaili were thinking about donning a Samoan jumper after watching what Tonga have achieved.
• New Zealand. Need to give that young Dylan Brown a start in the halves and do something towards building a more aggressive flowing style of footy.
• England (Great Britain). They are in trouble? Have a real problem of scoring points against good opposition. Seem to be going backwards since 2017 RLWC Final. Next year against Australia in Ashes series could be ugly. Speaking of which!

Next year! Is huge. Will be one year out from 2021 RLWC. Next year is all about development and building combinations and passion in the international jersey.

• Oceanic Cup [Pool A] with Fiji, Tonga and New Zealand is a fantastic development opportunity for all three nations. If Fiji can get full squad on the field, I would give all nations a chance of winning. Where these games are played is a mystery. Fiji v NZ will be a hard sell. Take the game to Suva?
• Oceanic Shield [Pool B] with Samoa, Cook Islands, PNG. An interesting pool that I really have no idea about. A chance to really develop that second tier in the Pacific.
• Australia's Tour of Europe. Mal has said that in amongst the three matches against England, they want to play midweek matches against Super League Clubs or France. Hopefully France happens, because these Northern Hemisphere teams need all the matches they can get.
• European Cup [?] Is this going to be happening to give Scotland, Ireland, Wales, Italy and France something to do?

I've spent way too much of my Sunday morning this. How are you feeling International forum?

 

[milton]

I think Fiji needs to be the team next year to step up and send a message. They have come 4th in the past 3 world cups but never seem to get their best team on the park in the years between. They beat NZ in the last world cup but always get beat 50+ by Australia. They never get games against the 'big 3' between world cups so next year is their chance against 2 of the 'big 4'. They will need their full available squad in the Oceana cup to show what they are capable of in the lead up to 2021. They have the team to be competitive, just need more games together

1. Kevin Naiqama
2. Maika Sivo
3. Waqa Blake
4. Brayden Wiliame
5. Suliasi Vunivalu
6. Apasia Korosau
7. Brandon Wakeham
8. Kane Evans
9. Joe Lovodua
10. Daniel Saifiti
11. Viliame Kikau
12. Tariq Simms
13. Jayson Bukuya

14. Tui Kamikamica
15. Ben Nakubuwai
16 .Salesi Junior Fainga'a
17. Korbin Simms

 

[siv]

I would add Niue to Oceania Group B to make it 4 teams

And develop a Oceania Pool C with Vanuatu, Solomon's and Tokeleau

I would like to see a Asia Cup develop - Japan, Phillipines, India, Lebanon

With a Asia Shield - Thailand, Laos, Hong Kong

MEA Cup to revert to Africa Cup and invite Kenya

In Europe

British Isles 4 Nations - England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales

Euro Sub-regionals
- France, Italy, Spain, Malta
- Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Latvia, Modovia, Russia
- Poland, Germany, Czech, Netherlands, Ukraine
- Greece, Serbia, Bosnia, Turkey, Hungary, Albania

Euro Cup - Top 2 Britsh plus Top 2 Euro after a sub selection process

 

[jim_57]

Tonga & Samoa being in separate groups again gives a good oppurtunity to play Tonga V Samoa next year in a "friendly" mid-year whilst Fiji host NZ and PNG play Cook Is.

 

[adamkungl]

This will be controversial - but England/GB/whatever shirt they decide to wear - need to punt Wayne.
He's made them a grittier, tougher side, but at the expense of confidence in their own competition.
They stuttered in attack because of Bennett's penchant for picking very average Australian players over home grown stars.
Hastings would struggle to find a starting spot in the NRL.
Coote had given up on the NRL.
Austin too.
And Widdop in the halves has always been a handbrake on his teams attack. Apparently no one else can see this but results over years and years speak for themselves.
Williams Gale Tomkins are all better than the above but Wayne will keep picking these nobodies because they played some NRL.
Punt him and start fresh before a home World Cup is flushed down the drain. England are currently on track to bomb out of the quarters.

Tonga - Huge achievement. Need to be able to build on it by sorting out their political issues.
Could Lolohea come back to the NRL with an improved attitude and live up to his obvious potential?

Australia will go into the 2021 WC as very beatable favourites. DCE Munster and Cook are a far cry from the almost invincible playmakers Australia has had for the last 25-odd years. There's no obvious heir apparent coming through to replace the likes of Smith, Cronk, Inglis, Slater that have all retired.

England and New Zealand can beat Australia if they settle on a quality halves combination and stick with them for the next 2 years. I think Shaun Johnson has to be in the picture for NZ. He's capable of a stinker but he's also the only NZ half capable of beating Australia on a good day. Foran is busted, Nikorima is garbage, Benji is too old. Hope Dylan brown can step up?

Who else?
Samoa need a new coach because Parish is failing to get the best out of an obviously powerful roster.
France needs a new everything.
Fiji continue to surprise but need a superstar to take them to the next level. Let's hope Wakeham cements an NRL spot.

The rest.. keep building, keep playing more matches. A 16 team World Cup gives more opportunity than ever to take a big leap. PNG, Ireland or Wales in the right group could find themselves with a serious crack at a semi-final spot and a chance to really build over the next few years.

The game is on the edge of something great.. will it bother to take the shot?

 

[jim_57]

This will be controversial - but England/GB/whatever shirt they decide to wear - need to punt Wayne.
He's made them a grittier, tougher side, but at the expense of confidence in their own competition.
They stuttered in attack because of Bennett's penchant for picking very average Australian players over home grown stars.
Hastings would struggle to find a starting spot in the NRL.
Coote had given up on the NRL.
Austin too.
And Widdop in the halves has always been a handbrake on his teams attack. Apparently no one else can see this but results over years and years speak for themselves.
Williams Gale Tomkins are all better than the above but Wayne will keep picking these nobodies because they played some NRL.
Punt him and start fresh before a home World Cup is flushed down the drain. England are currently on track to bomb out of the quarters.

Tonga - Huge achievement. Need to be able to build on it by sorting out their political issues.
Could Lolohea come back to the NRL with an improved attitude and live up to his obvious potential?

Australia will go into the 2021 WC as very beatable favourites. DCE Munster and Cook are a far cry from the almost invincible playmakers Australia has had for the last 25-odd years. There's no obvious heir apparent coming through to replace the likes of Smith, Cronk, Inglis, Slater that have all retired.

England and New Zealand can beat Australia if they settle on a quality halves combination and stick with them for the next 2 years. I think Shaun Johnson has to be in the picture for NZ. He's capable of a stinker but he's also the only NZ half capable of beating Australia on a good day. Foran is busted, Nikorima is garbage, Benji is too old. Hope Dylan brown can step up?

Who else?
Samoa need a new coach because Parish is failing to get the best out of an obviously powerful roster.
France needs a new everything.
Fiji continue to surprise but need a superstar to take them to the next level. Let's hope Wakeham cements an NRL spot.

The rest.. keep building, keep playing more matches. A 16 team World Cup gives more opportunity than ever to take a big leap. PNG, Ireland or Wales in the right group could find themselves with a serious crack at a semi-final spot and a chance to really build over the next few years.

The game is on the edge of something great.. will it bother to take the shot?

Surely regular tests between tier 1 & tier 2 are coming more justifiable by the day.

I'd like to see Fiji really take the oppurtunity they've earned a few times over, with a full strength side I could see them beating one or both of Tonga & NZ. Imagine the shakeup if Fiji won the Oceania Cup the year after Tonga beat Australia, even Tonga winning it would still be big for then to get their first tournament win against tier 1.

A Euro replica of the Oceania Cup is a must in my opinion, even if England walk it for the next 10 years with a SL based side. England having a 1-2 game headstart would be benificial for them in end of year tournaments.

PNG are slowly getting there without the big influx of heritage that has helped Tonga, Samoa and a lesser extent Fiji. I'm hoping Olam and Gebbie can bith cement NRL spots this year and PNG can become a new "flavor of the month" like Fiji (wingers) have been in recent years. So much potential in PNG.

 

[Walter sobchak]

Surely regular tests between tier 1 & tier 2 are coming more justifiable by the day.

I'd like to see Fiji really take the oppurtunity they've earned a few times over, with a full strength side I could see them beating one or both of Tonga & NZ. Imagine the shakeup if Fiji won the Oceania Cup the year after Tonga beat Australia, even Tonga winning it would still be big for then to get their first tournament win against tier 1.

A Euro replica of the Oceania Cup is a must in my opinion, even if England walk it for the next 10 years with a SL based side. England having a 1-2 game headstart would be benificial for them in end of year tournaments.

PNG are slowly getting there without the big influx of heritage that has helped Tonga, Samoa and a lesser extent Fiji. I'm hoping Olam and Gebbie can bith cement NRL spots this year and PNG can become a new "flavor of the month" like Fiji (wingers) have been in recent years. So much potential in PNG.

The kumuls are using more and more heritage players but I agree with you about the potential. How could anybody not what with the population of PNG nearing 9 million and growing every year.

RL being the #1 sport also helps!!!

 

[yakstorm]

Whilst the Oceania Cup remains groups of 3 and the mid-season Rep Weekend remains, two of the three teams only have one guaranteed Test Match post season.

With the Oceania Cup taking place in 2022 and 2024 and the next GB Tour scheduled for 2023, there is a clear gap to fill.

As such, I'd love to see the RFL bring back something like the old Federation Cup which could be played around any inbound tours and European Cup.

You could have two from the pool of Fiji, PNG, Tonga and Samoa touring each time and even if they didn't play a tournament, they could each play 2-3 Tests to give the like of England, Ireland, Wales, Scotland and France a high quality hit out.

More fixtures for everyone, more cross-pollination of players, etc, more home fixtures for the European nations who need it.

 

[bazza]

With Tonga winning against Australia and GB recently (and being competitive for the past few years), I think it is time for regular regional competitions between world cups (think the Euros/Asian Cup for soccer)

2 years after the world cup play a Asia-Pacific championship.
Start small say 4 teams - Australia, NZ, Tonga + qualifier (Fiji, Samoa, PNG, others)
First time could be 4 week tournament of 3 double headers and a final
If it becomes popular have more stand alone games and/or more teams

There could be an equivalent in the European/Atlantic region e.g. England, France + qualifiers from Wales, Ireland, USA, Italy, Jamaica, Canada

4 year cycle could be
1. World Cup
2. Europe/Pacific cup qualifiers
3. Europe and Pacific cups
4. Qualifiers for next world cup

The really low tier nations could start the world cup and regional qualifiers even earlier
During years 2 and 4 the big teams that have all ready qualified can arrange friendlies and longer tours

Should give a cycle of regular meaningful games against other countries of a similar standard - plus provide enough opportunities to play against higher level nations

 

[PARRA_FAN]

Well I hope this is turning point in another era of International football where the pacific nations are creeping up and the big 3 better be careful.

I don't think Australia were embarrassed, lets get Tonga some credit, that side had a lot of NRL experience. Ive seen Australia play worse and still win, but this Tonga team was more committed. This result was bound to happen.

I do believe Australia will get better once they get the right combinations or at least work better as a team. Obviously they're not the same without the likes of Slater, JT, Cronk and Smith. The current spine can work well, but I feel haven't worked well enough.

Aside from the tour to UK next year, I'm not sure what other matches the Kangaroos have planned. I feel as though that since the World Cup they haven't play enough Internationals. The more tests the better.

Someone fill me in on whats supposed to happen mid next year?

Id like to see more Internationals during the year, reduce the NRL season a little bit, play another Pacific double header, PNG Vs Fiji and then Samoa and Tonga, imagine that at Bankwest Stadium.

 

[myrrh ken]

England and tonga should swap tiers

 

[morningstar]

Think there has been a lot of hyperbole about the demise of the English game. Kiwis were in the exact same position after the world cup (beaten by two Tier 2 teams). A new coach, change in attitude and 12 months later we beat Australia. No reason why England can’t do the same.

The most important thing that has happened in the past 2 years (and we should shout from the rooftops to all the naysayers) is:-

1) Every tier 1 side has been knocked over by a tier 2 side, in the case of England/NZ by two of them.

2) Tonga, PNG & Fiji have beaten tier 1 sides.

...it’s baby steps (and sometimes 2 steps back) but we are getting there.

 

[adamkungl]

How good would it be as a lead-in to the World Cup if the English turned it around and beat Australia 2-1 on next year's tour.

They need a new coach though. Bennett simply does not have the week-to-week awareness or confidence in the English game to take this up another level.
I don't buy that the talent isn't there in Super League. They've lacked the out-and-out superstars like Inglis, Smith and Lockyer that the NRL is blessed with but Australia no longer has that advantage, for at least a few more years. Latrell Mitchell could be but isn't there yet.

 

[Perth Red]

How good would it be as a lead-in to the World Cup if the English turned it around and beat Australia 2-1 on next year's tour.

They need a new coach though. Bennett simply does not have the week-to-week awareness or confidence in the English game to take this up another level.
I don't buy that the talent isn't there in Super League. They've lacked the out-and-out superstars like Inglis, Smith and Lockyer that the NRL is blessed with but Australia no longer has that advantage, for at least a few more years. Latrell Mitchell could be but isn't there yet.

Haha, Ive been waiting 40 years for it, Im not holding my breath it will be next year! Im not seeing a lot of English world class talent available for next year. We had hope more NRL exposure for English players would help, but it doesnt seem to have.

 

[Walter sobchak]

England and tonga should swap tiers

Serious question but what determines a tier 1 nation?

 

[adamkungl]

Serious question but what determines a tier 1 nation?

Seriously, we should stop talking about tier 1 nations because outside of eligibility rules it isn't a useful or even defined concept and just muddies the waters with nonsense discussions like the one you quoted.

In reality a tier 1 nation is determined by the IRL stating that Australia, New Zealand, and England are tier 1 and everyone else isn't - purely for eligibility purposes.
If there is an official critiera, it isn't written on their website.

But we can logically assume that tier 1 nations have:

the finance ability to tour and host test matches,
first grade professional player depth enough to fill more than 1 squad,
local development of professional players

Tier 1 nations are effectively fully professional from top to bottom.
Aus, NZ and England are the only nations for which this is true.

Tonga have no reliable local pathways and rely on NZ and Aus development
France and PNG don't have enough first graders to reliably fill their team

 

[Walter sobchak]

Seriously, we should stop talking about tier 1 nations because outside of eligibility rules it isn't a useful or even defined concept and just muddies the waters with nonsense discussions like the one you quoted.

In reality a tier 1 nation is determined by the IRL stating that Australia, New Zealand, and England are tier 1 and everyone else isn't - purely for eligibility purposes.
If there is an official critiera, it isn't written on their website.

But we can logically assume that tier 1 nations have:

the finance ability to tour and host test matches,
first grade professional player depth enough to fill more than 1 squad,
local development of professional players

Tier 1 nations are effectively fully professional from top to bottom.
Aus, NZ and England are the only nations for which this is true.

Tonga have no reliable local pathways and rely on NZ and Aus development
France and PNG don't have enough first graders to reliably fill their team

So basically what you’re saying and I’m in total agreement with you that Tier 1 nations are determined by off-field factors and not on-field ones like results.

This means presumably that Tonga could never be a tier 1 nation because of its tiny population and small budget?

 

[adamkungl]

Lets talk Kangaroos.

It's time to bring back the mid-year test v NZ.
I'd start State of Origin a few weeks earlier, and play the Test in mid-July around where Origin 3 currently sits.

Australia should be playing New Zealand in a 3 match series every year.
Game 1 in July, in Brisbane
Game 2 in October, to open the international season, in Auckland
Game 3 in November, doubling as an in-tournament game, rotating location dependant on tournament

In addition to tournament games every year, this would result in a proper 7-9 game calendar year in year out and put the value back in the Kangaroos jersey that Mal Meninga has so many times claimed he wants to do.

How good would this be - an Oceania Cup year with an incoming England tour

July: Aus v NZ game 1
Oct 19: Aus v NZ game 2
Oct 26: Aus v England game 1
Nov 2: Aus v NZ game 3/Oceania Cup round 1
Nov 9: Aus v England game 2
Nov 16: Aus v Tonga Oceania Cup round 2
Nov 23: Aus v England game 3
Nov 30: Aus v Fiji Oceania Cup round 3
Dec 7: Oceania Cup final

Long year for sure - but there's no reason they couldn't compensate with a large squad and a limit on the number of total games a player can do in 1 year (plus a shorter NRL season would certainly help). Australia has the depth and financial ability to do this, and the moral responsibility to lead the international game.

 

[adamkungl]

So basically what you’re saying and I’m in total agreement with you that Tier 1 nations are determined by off-field factors and not on-field ones like results.

This means presumably that Tonga could never be a tier 1 nation because of its tiny population and small budget?

Basically correct.
Tonga is unlikely to become a tier 1 nation AND it would be harmful to Tonga to do so, as they would no longer be able to rely on Kiwi and Aus born Tongans banking on being able to represent both.

They should change "tier 1" to something deliberately obtuse like "Eligibility category A" so people talking about it in regards to winning games.

 

[Walter sobchak]

Basically correct.
Tonga is unlikely to become a tier 1 nation AND it would be harmful to Tonga to do so, as they would no longer be able to rely on Kiwi and Aus born Tongans banking on being able to represent both.

They should change "tier 1" to something deliberately obtuse like "Eligibility category A" so people talking about it in regards to winning games.

What should happen is that starting from 1st January 2020 anybody picked in an international sides match day 17 is tied to that nation for the rest of his playing career. No nation swapping allowed from that date on.