Why are we such an unsuccessful club?

[legend]

The fortunes of the Raiders is really starting to weigh heavily on my mind and I often wonder why we are such a second rate club in terms of success.

Melbourne have managed to find exceptional talents and attract existing talent to a location just as unenviable as Canberra IMO.

Teams like the Broncos, Bulldogs and Storm enjoy prolonged periods of success but we are merely making up the numbers every year. When we jag a finals spot in 7th or 8th we view that as a great year.

Teams like Parramatta and St George have their bad years but when they are successful, they are winning semi finals and are legitimately challenging for the title whereas we as a club seem to be rowing with one oar in the water, going in circles year after year, replacing coaches, letting established talent leave the club and never emerging as a premiership threat.

Why is it the players we let go are flourishing elsewhere? Guys like Robertson, Bryant, Kouparitsas, Payten, Soward, Kite and Cross are alll established first graders enjoying excellent careers post the Canberra Raiders?

There are so many questions that need answering and there never seems to be anyone to hold accountable at the club.

 

[Raidersrawesome]

maybe their teams are so poor our ex players look brilliant in their team:sarcasm:

 

[Sydney_Raider]

Legend you raise some very good points and I don't think that answer is as simple as the the geographical location of the joint. I think it was on Friday nights game Tigers v Roosters where one of the commentators was talking about Joel Monaghan and mentioned that he thought the Monaghan brothers were the future of the Canberra Raiders. When you also take in to account the other players you have mentioned then you begin to wonder what the hell is going on at the club. Perhaps a new CEO and talent scouting staff are required. If the players are accountable then so should be the back office staff. More often than not they are given more opportunity to perform than the players.

 

[dubby]

Legend,

I hardly consider the Raiders a second rate club. Far from it actually.

IMO what our club has had to battle with is a change in our culture and our game. The ACT used to be a place where you could come and raise a family and enjoy the support and love of a passionate Rugby League community. During the clubs heyday, we had players like Mal, who was a world class player who raised his family in the ACT and was proud of that. Other players like Lance, Coyne, Belcher, Chicka, Walters all did that because the ACT was generally the type of area they wanted to live in rather than Sydney.

Young players like Clyde, Stuart, Lazarus were local lads who had family here. Laurie was a Junee lad who loved the bush feel of the ACT. WIki, Pongia, Lomax were all Kiwis who had each other as countrymen and also liked living in Canberra.

Today, the player is less family focussed, as most of these guys are single or even living at home. Players today are younger and its all about image and being cool. Todays players adorne themselves with tattoos, wear label clothing and hang around nite clubs and the social scene.

The fact the players poll in RLW mentioned for the first time ever that the Raiders were the last club they would join (primarily due to the cold :roll: ) shows how the player attitude has changed. If you disagree with the cold comment, Gasnier mentioned during the Dragons game several times that the Dragons players got a fine for every time they complained about the cold when going to Canberra.

Plus, the Raiders have had alot of success bringing QLD players to the ACT. Now with 3 successful teams from QLD, that market has become tougher and smaller. We also have had good success with NZ players, but the Warriors ended niche that to a degree.

What we have lacked is a good strong leader in the coaches chair. Sheens was the last man who could spot talent and develop it. (Nadruku, Hoppe, Pongia, Lomax, Todd) all standout players under Sheens. Mal didnt have it and his reputation took a battering during SL, Elliot promised alot but didnt deliver, and now we have another rookie coach; our 3rd in a row. Time will tell if Henry has the goods.

Our geographics are not favourable. Neither is Melbourne, but they have a talent scout who is so good the Roosters have offered him $200k to work for them. Melbourne have also had great success scouring QLD and especially Brisbane Norths where Slater, Inglis and Folau have come from. And we have Souths Logan? Prior to them Ipswich? :crazy:

I understand your frustrations mate, I have been a supporter since 1986 and this is a very challenging time. We have lost some very good players due to money; Vainakolo, Wiki, Lazarus. Lost some due to stupid management; Clyde, Stuart, Marty.

What saddens me though, is the way our poor supporters get so excited over something so prematurely, then when that excitment doesnt fulfil them, they blame everything around them. Remember all the fuss over the Mac attack? Over Zillman/Bronx/Carney?

All fine players who havent really stepped up yet or ever did.

I think the onus is on the players.

Jack Gibson said that Rugby League is a personal game. Every team in the comp is as physically prepared as the next. Its the mental preperation that counts, and that is where character comes out.

Some of our players this year have not stepped up mentally, and have displayed no character or the wrong character.

And I believe that comes down partly due to our culture which treats these guys the way we do, and how much they get paid to do it.

 

[legend]

Young players need guidance Dubby and why is it all the players I mentioned in my opening post have had great careers after they left the Raiders?

It's obvious other teams recognise some of the talent we have but they seem to have more capable people to bring the best out in these players whereas we let them walk or pin our hopes on mediocre players from other clubs who were discarded for a reason.

If a clubs success is measured by wins on the field, we'd wouldn't even be hitting a 50% win ratio since the NRL started and that is not success in my books.

 

[Timbo]

I have to agree with legend here...

I've often thought that this is a cyclical process, you have up seasons and down seasons, but the fact is, barring the abberation that was 2003, we've had nothing but down seasons since about 1998.

There are several cases in point here:
-Manly. Powerhouse in the early 90s at the same time as us, fell away at the same time as us and became cellar dwellars. Then had a meteoric rise to prominence, which we have looked nothing like duplicating.

-Melbourne. Won premiership in 99 and were mediocre for the following 4 or so seasons. Then exploded out of the blocks. Now the dominant team on the block.

-North Queensland. Were absoulutely woeful for their first 6-7 seasons, rarely stringing together consecutive wins and being an easy away win. Then with a keen group of juniors - and one or two very clever buys - have become a heavyweight.

I could do a similar spiel about Wests and Penrith but I think you get the gist.

Now, heres the thing; I see in our side right now the same things I saw in North Queensland circa 2002, or Penrith in 2003. However, I have virtually zero confidence that our side will be able to convert our promise into a premiership, nor do I have confidence that our management will be able to retain our juniors the same way that Penrith, Wests or North Queensland have been able to.

It seems as though the powers that be in Canberra are satisfied with mediocrity and don't want to rock the boat.

No wonder I look forward to cricket season so much.

 

[dubby]

Legend, I would hardly consider players like Cross, Robertson, Bryant as players who have excelled elsewhere. They have merely joined clubs that have better players than we do.

Byrant, Robertson, Kite all joined Manly who have paid mega bucks for Lyon, Orford; players who are a better than we have. The club cant compete with Manly on that level.
So, they seem to be going better there because Manly are a very competitive team that have had a good run with injuries. And becuase they are in a SYdney glamour club, they gain more recognition. IMO, Kite sucked in SOO and the rest are average first graders.

Cross. He only played Counry Origin due to his coach being the coach for Origin. His form is no better than what is was here.

I put Kouparitsas in the same up and comer bracket as TLL. Nick has had a few clubs (us and Tigers) and is only starting to show form after 3 years. Hardly a major loss.

Paytens form suffered at the Roosters. He has stepped up at the Tigers and I think Sheens has had alot to do with that. He plays Todd to his strenghts. On current form, TOdd is a significant loss.

Soward. He too has been indifferent. Hardly a run at the Chooks and has been great for the Dragons. I think he has a point to prove and has trained his guts out to prove a point to the Chooks. I doubt Jamie would be a regular NRL player here. Just my opinion.

We have lost significant players over the years who left for more money or to gain a rep jumper; Finch, Joel Monas, Wiki, Payten, O'Hara.

Because of the mindset you wont get a rep jumper if you are a Raider has a lot to do with players perceptions of who to join. That is one reason we clutch at the Costigans, Tilses; no one else will touch them! That mindset really developed during the Elliot tenure and the fact he came out every season and said we overachieved had a big impact on the image of our players and club. I think we will need more time and results to undo the image Elliot shed upon us.

And I agree with you that we need a strong leader, a coach and board who will get serious with these players and with recruitment. Maybe Henry is doing that now? Maybe thats why we see alot of guys in and out of NRL.

Legend, the club has tried to sign Whatuira, Myles, and even Steve Simpson but at the end of the day its all about money and honour. We cant match the big offers at other clubs because we pay overs here to attract players of average talent anyway. Simply, the club doesnt cheat the cap and tries to develop guys who will have a go.

As for the players you've mentioned who have left, alot of that has to do with our excoach and his decisions.

 

[St. Brett]

Legend

I think your answer lies in your original thread up there.

I was only thinking last night about how many players leave your club.

That's your answer.

All your players are going elswhere.
Clubs today, want instant results on the field. No one's giving these kids time to mature anymore.

Losing your up coming players like this, now, whether this is due to them being sacked or leaving on their own accord I don't know.

For the life of me I don't know why you let the two Mc Twins goes.

Look at Brent Kite. He's playing the best footy of his career now.

Look what B.K. went on to do.

Ryan O'Hara hardly ever rates a mention since he left Canberra. (what a wasted talent! Get him back, Canberra.)

Retain your players.

Everybody else is stealing them.

It's the same as Penrith and Knights......they have a great starters program but all these poachers lurking around steal their juniors.

If I was a Canberra hob knob I'd look in to getting Steve Witt back to Australia.

I can see in the near future some other club stealing either Carney or Campese off you guys. And the incentive will be too big to resist.
You better stop shafting Campese or he's gone bye bye.

 

[green eyed mike]

I think it must be a cultural thing. After the hey day in the early nineties when Mal took over as coach was when the problems started. It seems like there were a lot of problems between the older players and they younger players coming through. Having Woolford as a captain for so long gave us a reputation as being whingers, which was probably deserved. Every team gets bad calls, good teams step up and win anyway.

Given how close the competition is at the moment I think a lot of it comes down to attitude. For some reason we don't have a winning culture at our club. I mean look at the Roosters, they sucked all season but now they are beating everyone. If our players could turn up with the right attitude every week and play for 80 minutes then we would win a lot more games.

A lot of the games we have lost on the back of dubious calls are games that we should have won by 20 points and I think that we need to stop making excuses and look to the players to turn it around. I know that a club culture is not only the responsibility of the players but the club as a whole but that is much less transparent for a fan.

I am still optimistic about 2008. I think we have a good squad with some good young talent but they need to step up. If they want to play in finals and win them it is up to them to carry that attitude through the season. This season has been disrupted by injuries and suspensions and in all reality was probably never going to be the year but if this player group can't compete next year then I for one will be at a loss about where we are going as a club.

 

[Chachi]

I don't think we can underestimate the impact professional rugby union has had on Canberra. As has been stated our big success last century was due in part to a crop of legendary juniors all coming through at once (especially those already mentioned). Some of the best footy youngsters in Canberra over the past decade have ended up playing Union - guys like Roff (who I rated very highly), Gregan, Larkham and Giteau - were all boys who would probably given league a crack if there was no professional Union dollars available.

Losing quality locals such as the Monaghan brothers (especially Mick), Kite and McLinden has been tragic IMO. Combine that with the fact we signed Jason Smith over Jonathan Thurston and Lincoln Withers over Cameron Smith gives me some indication on where our problems have been.

Diabolical recruiting has also been a key to our failure - exhibit a. Craig Frawley, exhibit b. Tyran Smith, exibit c. Brad Drew.

Throw in a big dash of negative coaching and some poor PR (remember our CEO mooting a move to the central coast last year) to round off the rosy picture.

On the other side of the coin we have always been very strong in our juniors and are more often than not up there in contention for the Flegg, Ball and PL finals, but IMO we do need more aggressive talent identification programs in Queensland, NZ the pacific islands and country NSW.

Despite our poor performance over the past 2 months I am still optomistic for the next few seasons.

 

[legend]

The only thing our stong junior base does is give the other clubs another place to look for their next superstar.

Watch guys like McCrone and Rothery flourish elsewhere next season while Bickerstaff and Turner plod along for the Raiders.

 

[Bay56]

There are so many questions that need answering and there never seems to be anyone to hold accountable at the club.

And therein lies the problem Legend.

I've held an opinion for some time that the club is run by people who have a use by date that has expired a decade ago or are holding a position due to a nomination by the former.

I know many dont agree with me but the Carney suspension is case in point. Five games off the park at a very important stage in our season. You can add Goodwin and Campo to the same basket. Compare that with the Dogs who up until mid-season were below us on the table ... indiscretions by SBW and others were left in the board room while playing talent was left on the footy field.

Those decision are just the tip of the iceberg but are consistent with the below average success this club has experienced over the past decade or so.

 

[dubby]

And therein lies the problem Legend.

I've held an opinion for some time that the club is run by people who have a use by date that has expired a decade ago or are holding a position due to a nomination by the former.

I know many dont agree with me but the Carney suspension is case in point. Five games off the park at a very important stage in our season. You can add Goodwin and Campo to the same basket. Compare that with the Dogs who up until mid-season were below us on the table ... indiscretions by SBW and others were left in the board room while playing talent was left on the footy field.

Those decision are just the tip of the iceberg but are consistent with the below average success this club has experienced over the past decade or so.

And thats why more often than not the Dogs are in the papers for this reason. Our management should be applauded for disciplinary reasons handed to Todd Carney.

Our club gained respect for handling the issue, the Dogs have no credibility at all.

As for the notion that no one in the club is accountable; what a load or horse crap.

They are accountable to the fans, and if the club is not successful then the club loses fans, sponsership, revenue etc.

Get out of your shell Bay and Legend, you are just witch hunting.

 

[Bay56]

And thats why more often than not the Dogs are in the papers for this reason. Our management should be applauded for disciplinary reasons handed to Todd Carney.

Our club gained respect for handling the issue, the Dogs have no credibility at all.

As for the notion that no one in the club is accountable; what a load or horse crap.

They are accountable to the fans, and if the club is not successful then the club loses fans, sponsership, revenue etc.

Get out of your shell Bay and Legend, you are just witch hunting.

Dubster the Dogs have heaps of cred when people are discussing football talent and trophys.

I dont see a football cabinet at the QLC with a big cup for "the best rehabilitating football club".

At the end of the season it is your position on the table that gains respect from the general football public ... hence we are favourites to receive the wooden spoon season after season.

I would ask yourself to get out of your shell Dubby (no offence intended) ... the cold fact is that winning = success = respect.

 

[dubby]

Cred. Respect. Dogs.

Nope, those things should never be used in the same sentence.

One thing I admit tho, the Dogs play with plenty of pride and passion. Something our boys seem to lack and have lacked since the departure of Shif and Toots.

No offence with the "shell" comment Bay, I reacted in a moment of frustration and I hope you dont take it personally either.

Like you, I am frustrated and eager for success but I vent my frustrations different to you and Legend.

 

[Bay56]

No worries dubster .. you're not one that I consider offensive (as opposed to some twits elsewhere).

I see it this way ... we've had the same old problems for a decade ... decision making starts at the top and hence when results are not forthcoming that is usually the source of the problem ... who else should be blamed, the cleaning lady maybe.

 

[dubby]

Mate, I think alot of problems go as far back as Kevin Neil.

The landscape of RL has changed as far as players go.

The success and future of our club lay in the hands of Neil Henry and the current group of players we have now.

 

[legend]

Dubby, I started a thread on an internet message board about my displeasure surrounding how the club is being run.

I didn't rant and rave for fear of earning the ire of Tokyo Raider and I'm not burning cars in front of the stadium as protest either.

Fact is we are an underachieving club and we have no credibility as a footy team and if I can't vent my spleen here, where would you suggest I do it?

Also, if people are apathetic to the foruntes of the club, that IMO is in part the reason we aspire to mediocrity. No one cares or if they do, they don't show it. We accept each year as a rebuilding year and each and every year we see another false dawn.

Until we can consistently make the top four and win a finals match for the first time since 2000, then I will be convinced we have turned the corner.

Until then we are the butt of other teams jokes.

 

[Chachi]

I think we are re-building some credibility around league circles. Since our well known pre-season rubbishing we've had far more positive press throughout this season than we've had in some time.

Still not great - but improving.

 

[edabomb]

The fact is that while fans see this as a poor season, the media will see anything other than the spoon as a huge success.