World Cup defense fail

[Captain Apollo]

I don't get people complaining about Kasiano, of all the nobody losers on your team why pick on one of the few dangerous star players? Some people need to get their eyes checked seriously, just no idea.

And agree eastwood should be automatic every time.

NZ are as bad at recognising talent as NSW seriously.

Sorry, but from what NZ needed to beat Australia, and based on his performance in the semi-final, Kasiano did not deserve to be there. NZ needed a hard charging metre gainer who has some agility. Moa would have given them that in spades. Kasiano doesn't and he was ineffectual against Australia in the final. His inclusion saw SBW and others having to play more "bash and barge" to compensate for Kasiano when he was on the field.

 

[ozbash]

Tone83

Is this f**kwit the old Aragorn ?

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

The major difference between the Kangaroos and us is that, while they might start of conservative, they have no fear of doing the unorthadox. A number of their tries in the final were virtually undefendable and they were on the back of unorthadox plays by individuals who got great support from those around them. I read an interview with SK about the Kiwi's gameplan a few weeks back and he said that he knew for sure that we wouldn't beat Australia if we made mistakes. Whilst that may be true, I think that's a negative mindset to have going into a game. It should be a given that you don't want to make mistakes. However, to beat the Kangaroos when they're at their best, you have to be creative and be prepared to take risks and try things that are unorthadox. We weren't actually particularly bad in that test, I thought. The Kangaroos were just on another level.

Yep.

I'm loathe to try to justify or minimise a 34-2 loss, but I also feel like people work backwards from the score sometimes when trying to explain what happened. No doubt we were totally outplayed, but it's not like we were consistently carved up. The score blew out because of all the opportunistic/unorthodox tries Australia scored. Only once (try after half time) did they really carve us up through the hands. Three of the five tries they didn't break the line through the hands at all.

What bugs me isn't really the tries we conceded but the complete lack of an attempt to match what they did.

 

[Philip_Smith007]

I am yet to put myself through a second viewing, but
1: our forwards where ineffective
2: their line speed amazing!
3: no creativity in attack, no double rounds, no angle runners.
4: there was no support for offloads.

Selections an issue, would Inu of caught Hayne vs Goodwin and Whare would of had Morris?

Anyway can we have a 3 game series vs England while Aussie is playing with itself?

 

[Micistm]

Sigh...I don't think we have progressed in years. We still win the odd one in a few vs Aussie, it's just those odd ones have been finals to make it look better than it is.
Jeez we have some talented players, and so much potential. But we're amateurs. That's what it looks like more often than not when Aussie takes on NZ. Professionals vs Amateurs. Once in a while we lift, put on a pro performance while Aussie is off a little. Most of the time, we don't.
Take our players, scatter them through the NRL, they shine, they become stars. Stick em together again, they're hot n cold...the boys club is back together again for a laid back fun time that sometimes clicks but mainly can't compete with Aussies pure professionalism and class.
Is that unfair? Maybe. But have they really taken that brilliant win after '05 in the Tri series and moved forward? Or are they stagnant, still doing that once in a while brilliance but mostly disappointing when taking on the big foe?

 

[Fast Eddie]

Is that unfair? Maybe.

I think it is, absolutely. This Australian team in the period of 2005-2013 is one of the best teams they have put out in terms of talent, and likely is all downhill from here for them. Will be a quick drop off from that peak imo. In that period against a far superior team talent wise we went (ignoring ANZAC tests)

Loss - conceded two tries in the last 7 minutes to blow the game
Loss - golden point
Loss
Win
Draw
Loss
Win
Loss
Loss

About what you would expect with talent available during that time period. We did choke to a degree in the final but I truly believe it's not long to we are on par with them if not better. In that team we put out we lacked a quality centre to replace Goodwin, a fullback and a halfback. Sheck is the future at fullback so that's covered. Australia are going lose half their side in the next 2-3 years. New coach is needed though. The fact that Goodwin was picked in front of Inu all tournament and that Locke got the nod ahead of Hoffman were fails imo. And i know they felt they had to go with Taylor because of his dubious back up hooker skills but Eastwood was the way to go off the bench with Mannering at lock imo.

 

[ozbash]

Take our players, scatter them through the NRL, they shine, they become stars. Stick em together again, they're hot n cold...the boys club is back together again for a laid back fun time that sometimes clicks but mainly can't compete with Aussies pure professionalism and class.

is that the players fault or coaching/administration ?

the attitude that its 'just a game' is still alive and well. and i'm not 100% sure if that's a bad thing or not.

 

[Micistm]

I think it is, absolutely. This Australian team in the period of 2005-2013 is one of the best teams they have put out in terms of talent, and likely is all downhill from here for them. Will be a quick drop off from that peak imo. In that period against a far superior team talent wise we went (ignoring ANZAC tests)

Loss - conceded two tries in the last 7 minutes to blow the game
Loss - golden point
Loss
Win
Draw
Loss
Win
Loss
Loss

About what you would expect with talent available during that time period. We did choke to a degree in the final but I truly believe it's not long to we are on par with them if not better. In that team we put out we lacked a quality centre to replace Goodwin, a fullback and a halfback. Sheck is the future at fullback so that's covered. Australia are going lose half their side in the next 2-3 years. New coach is needed though. The fact that Goodwin was picked in front of Inu all tournament and that Locke got the nod ahead of Hoffman were fails imo. And i know they felt they had to go with Taylor because of his dubious back up hooker skills but Eastwood was the way to go off the bench with Mannering at lock imo.

I hope we are on a par soon. I think there needs to be a change in mindset, in professionalism IMO. We have some stunning players in the Kiwis, for one reason or another more often than not have average games for the kiwis.
We beat argueably the 'best side ever' in Aussie, at home in their own WC. They can do it, for sure. Why not consistantly? At least be competitive in every game?
That said, you think of the domination of Qld vs NSW...you may have a point! We are seeing a particularly stunning group of players in history.

 

[Fast Eddie]

I hope we are on a par soon. I think there needs to be a change in mindset, in professionalism IMO. We have some stunning players in the Kiwis, for one reason or another more often than not have average games for the kiwis.
We beat argueably the 'best side ever' in Aussie, at home in their own WC. They can do it, for sure. Why not consistantly? At least be competitive in every game?
That said, you think of the domination of Qld vs NSW...you may have a point! We are seeing a particularly stunning group of players in history.

Answers are relatively simple to that though.

Why can't we consistently beat on of the best Australian sides of all time? Cause a better/far more talented team/better prepared team (SOO) is going to win the majority of the time. The gap in talent is closing quickly though and that talent gap will nearly close with the international retirements coming up.

They're about to lose the best hooker of all time, the best fullback of all time (I know to be replaced by Inglis but that means someone like Josh Morris is next in line at centre), the 2nd best halfback (Thurston) of all time. Look at the credentials of that spine and look at what we have put out in that same time period. I almost guarantee that in 2-3 years time you will be seeing us beat them regularly or at the least being competitive in every game.

 

[shinobi]

cant keep praying for retirement just like the abs the new talent will come thru cherry evans, anthony milford etc

 

[Fast Eddie]

cant keep praying for retirement just like the abs the new talent will come thru cherry evans, anthony milford etc

Of course Australia will always have good young talent coming through. The difference being our young players for the most part match their young players. I don't see how looking forward to a few once in a generation or more players retiring is some sort of cop out. It's the reason they've been a good side over the last 7-8 years.

 

[Philip_Smith007]

Answers are relatively simple to that though.

Why can't we consistently beat on of the best Australian sides of all time? Cause a better/far more talented team/better prepared team (SOO) is going to win the majority of the time. The gap in talent is closing quickly though and that talent gap will nearly close with the international retirements coming up.

The SOO is the big thing, hardening them up for tough encounters, stealing other countries talent and offering big $$$ to play in it, while SOO exist on its own and Kiwi's don't have their own, or we playing England at this time I believe the status quo will remain, no matter what talent we have. (hope I am wrong!).

 

[Tone83]

I think you could argue NZ have a special team right now, ofcourse you have some duds (that you easily could have not picked, goodwin instead of Inu ahem), but so do australia. Isaac Luke and SBW are the two best kiwis ever I think it's pretty safe to say.

I can think of more young aussies that are set to be world beaters than kiwis. Australia's dominance could be greater in the future. Not saying for sure, just saying.

 

[Auckland4ever]

Australia's dominance could be greater in the future. Not saying for sure, just saying.

You could be right. But we're still light years away from reaching our true potential as a RL nation, based purely on the fact that so few play the sport in comparison to RU here and our numbers are tiny compared to how many play in Australia. The positive thing is, RL as a sport has finally been moving in the right direction for us in NZ over the past few years. So long as our numbers continue to grow, we could produce some truly outstanding teams in the future.

 

[Fast Eddie]

I think you could argue NZ have a special team right now, ofcourse you have some duds (that you easily could have not picked, goodwin instead of Inu ahem), but so do australia. Isaac Luke and SBW are the two best kiwis ever I think it's pretty safe to say.

I can think of more young aussies that are set to be world beaters than kiwis. Australia's dominance could be greater in the future. Not saying for sure, just saying.

No doubt it was probably the best team on paper we have put out since I've been watching the Kiwis and I agree it could have been better with the right selections. Cherry Evans is the one who really stands out for me when it comes to future superstars or better for them. We have to hope Johnson actually develops into a consistent top line halfback, because with him, Foran, Luke and RTS that's one hell of a spine. One that will match if not be better than Australias. Smith and Farrah are going to be both gone in about 2-3 years, same with Thurston so they better start developing some quality hookers and 5/8ths.

Get in a new coach, and continue to make sure we target the under 20's guys and get them locked into the Kiwis. If we do that I have no doubt the gap will close quickly. Australia had a great final, couple of lucky/flukey tries and we didn't really fire any shots out of nerves and also I believe because they didn't want to repeat the looseness of the performance against England. I think the end of year Test in Townsville is a fair indication of the gap between the two countries.

 

[Micistm]

I still have doubts...simply on the grounds we have some absolute class players that for some inexplicable reason fail to fire and gel when together more often than not, year after year(yet still are genuine stars through the NRL & league world). How long now have we thought we have the team to at least compete with the Aussies and keep it tight? How often does it blow out?
If anyone knows the reason why...submit your coaches CV! ;-)

 

[SilentOne]

it's one thing to have the players (which the kiwis do), but it's another thing entirely when they have a halfwit as coach and ass coach.

 

[Fast Eddie]

I still have doubts...simply on the grounds we have some absolute class players that for some inexplicable reason fail to fire and gel when together more often than not, year after year(yet still are genuine stars through the NRL & league world). How long now have we thought we have the team to at least compete with the Aussies and keep it tight? How often does it blow out?
If anyone knows the reason why...submit your coaches CV! ;-)

To put it perspective we've gone 3-4 in that 2005 time period. This is the first time we've not turned up in a final against them. We've gone 3-2 in finals with one being a golden point loss. The most disappointing performances to me in that time period have been against England. Although England are a better side then a lot give them credit for and I don't think it will be long before they are beating Australia fairly regularly up in England. I don't really put too much on the ANZAC Test.

 

[JoeD]

You're only as strong as your weakest link and while our best 'might' be up with theirs (debateable) our weakest is waaaay weaker. We still lack true across the board depth (see Goodwin). None of our spine would make a combined team. Some of our spine would not make a 'D' combined ANZAC team. Simply our players are not as good as theirs. There is not much we can do except keep supporting them, hope kiwi management is doing all they can to grow the game and hope for the odd miracle.

Also get the best coach money can by, whether he is kiwi, Australian or Jamaican. Bellyache would be my choice.

 

[Tone83]

You could be right. But we're still light years away from reaching our true potential as a RL nation, based purely on the fact that so few play the sport in comparison to RU here and our numbers are tiny compared to how many play in Australia. The positive thing is, RL as a sport has finally been moving in the right direction for us in NZ over the past few years. So long as our numbers continue to grow, we could produce some truly outstanding teams in the future.

Well there are more kiwis in oz than NZ if I'm not mistaken, and a lot of the young kiwi males in oz aspire to play in the NRL more so than the all blacks. Ofcourse, the odd one of them might switch allegiance to australia for origin glory, but many don't.

Krisnan Inu for example easily could have, but stuck with you guys, only to then not be selected in the kiwis team despite clearly being the best choice ... hmmm...