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Expansion won't happen anytime soon

taipan

Referee
Messages
22,410
lol.you were talking about Perth and putting a new club in Perth. Last time I looked neither the lions Suns or GWS are playing in Perth?

Glory and force are struggling because they have been terrible on the field for a decade. There's only so much shite performances fans will put up with. Since sage took over glory have gone from the biggest soccer club in the country to one of the smallest. Force first few years they were going gangbusters, corporates falling over themselves to be attached to them, crowds bigger than most NRL clubs, making a profit each year etc. after failing to achieve anything on the field, numerous changes of players and coaches, bad behaviour of star players etc the fans and sponsors have drifted away. It's not that they aren't there anymore.


WTF.

The Lions are a basket case in Brisbane.The Suns are struggling on the GC .GWS need the ACT to even get decent member numbers.These are in non heartland areas,just like Perth would be in the NRL.Repeat non heartland areas.
And a Perth NRL side will be performing well for ever and a day?

Do you understand the ARU has little money to assist the Force.All very nice in the early years, but it's the long term that counts.

The Old and NSW economies are in far better shape than WA.If you don't know that you are living in Madagascar.Can't be any clearer.The corporates in Perth are not in the position to fall over themselves under the current economy.Jeez even NRL clubs in Sydney find tit hard to get major sponsors.

I'm not the one bleating on every post for years about having a Perth side regardless of the money in the kitty.I'm not the one who doesn't give a rats about what money is available.

In fact I have no idea what money is available until I see the actual income figures and the expenditure.And judging by your puerile responses you have even less of an idea.

I worked in marketing for 4 years, and you are lecturing me on goals and strategies. FFS.

You won't respond unsurprisingly, to my question on where are the actual revenues and costs for the NRL?That figures.Pie in the sky projections.

Consolidate then expand to Perth,Brisbane , the Maldives wherever, but make sure you have the wherewithall
to withstand a major downturn and contused poor performances.
 
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taipan

Referee
Messages
22,410
Agreed, I don't think either of them have the vision to see where the game could and should be in twenty years time. Geez Greenburg in his opening media interview when getting the job told them he was no visionary leader! With the clubs once again wanting to be the tail wagging the dog, a lack of strategic and visionary leadership in the commission and CEO position it doesn't bode well.

People like taipan think it is about the money we have today but in reality it is about a lack of ability to set goals and achieve them. Take a look at the NRL strategic plan that has been in place for 4 years and how far behind on nearly every meaningful kpi they are that should be met by 2017.

Not that it's anything new for rugby league. An amazing sport on the field ran by a bunch of morons off it. Been that way for the 36 years Ive followed the sport.

People like Taipan take into account money available today,what is owing, what assets we can dispose of that we shouldn't be holding.People like Taipan don't spend what they haven't got.I also like to eliminate waste and duplication.
People like Taipan plan for the future setting money aside for "expansion" and infrastructure.It's called planning for the future ,and in a fast changing tech world the future changes rapidly, and the money may not be there in a few years from the usual sources.

I care about the rl base, you apparently care little, suggesting players grow on trees.And you have little idea of what money is there today, yet are quite happy to suggest the future process.

Who predicted the Centre of Excellence for the Titans would end up a mess,necessitating the NRL to buy out the club and take it overplus its costs.Same applies to Newcastle.
The dramas with the Balmain development, the reduction in grants from the St George Leagues club.
The large losses of the NRL clubs in Sydney.

Anyone can have a strategic plan, circumstances change, economies change, salaries change upwards.
Perth Red reminds me of the guy who suggested to Woolworths , lets rush in and start Masters hardware ,because Bunnings is doing so well. I say no more.
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
65,957
WTF.

The Lions are a basket case in Brisbane.The Suns are struggling on the GC .GWS need the ACT to even get decent member numbers.These are in non heartland areas,just like Perth would be in the NRL.Repeat non heartland areas.
And a Perth NRL side will be performing well for ever and a day?

Do you understand the ARU has little money to assist the Force.All very nice in the early years, but it's the long term that counts.

The Old and NSW economies are in far better shape than WA.If you don't know that you are living in Madagascar.Can't be any clearer.The corporates in Perth are not in the position to fall over themselves under the current economy.Jeez even NRL clubs in Sydney find tit hard to get major sponsors.

I'm not the one bleating on every post for years about having a Perth side regardless of the money in the kitty.I'm not the one who doesn't give a rats about what money is available.

In fact I have no idea what money is available until I see the actual income figures and the expenditure.And judging by your puerile responses you have even less of an idea.

I worked in marketing for 4 years, and you are lecturing me on goals and strategies. FFS.

You won't respond unsurprisingly, to my question on where are the actual revenues and costs for the NRL?That figures.Pie in the sky projections.

Consolidate then expand to Perth,Brisbane , the Maldives wherever, but make sure you have the wherewithall
to withstand a major downturn and contused poor performances.

Do you think the $40mill the NRL has invested in the Melbourne storm on top of their grant money was worth it? Would be no different to why you would build a club in perth, but cheaper.
 

taipan

Referee
Messages
22,410
When did the NRL put the $40m into the club? When the NRL was in apportion to do so? When the Titans and Knights were not draining money?
And without News behind the scenes,I doubt it would have happened.
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
65,957
WTF.

The Lions are a basket case in Brisbane.The Suns are struggling on the GC .GWS need the ACT to even get decent member numbers.These are in non heartland areas,just like Perth would be in the NRL.Repeat non heartland areas.
And a Perth NRL side will be performing well for ever and a day?

Do you understand the ARU has little money to assist the Force.All very nice in the early years, but it's the long term that counts.

The Old and NSW economies are in far better shape than WA.If you don't know that you are living in Madagascar.Can't be any clearer.The corporates in Perth are not in the position to fall over themselves under the current economy.Jeez even NRL clubs in Sydney find tit hard to get major sponsors.

I'm not the one bleating on every post for years about having a Perth side regardless of the money in the kitty.I'm not the one who doesn't give a rats about what money is available.

In fact I have no idea what money is available until I see the actual income figures and the expenditure.And judging by your puerile responses you have even less of an idea.

I worked in marketing for 4 years, and you are lecturing me on goals and strategies. FFS.

You won't respond unsurprisingly, to my question on where are the actual revenues and costs for the NRL?That figures.Pie in the sky projections.

Consolidate then expand to Perth,Brisbane , the Maldives wherever, but make sure you have the wherewithall
to withstand a major downturn and contused poor performances.

We allegedly didnt have the money in 2008 when the NRL's revenue was $180mill or 2013 when it was $300mill or in 2018 when it is $500mill. Tell me Einstein how much revenue do you think the NRL needs to consolidate?

The figure I have quoted are not unreasonable guesstimates. $30mill a year for two new teams based on club grants of around $12-13mill by then plus set up plus some supportive start up funding for first few years plus extra cost of staging an extra game ie refs etc.
The $45mill a game in 2018 is fact. What more do you want?

The NRL's revenue and expenditure figures are in the annual report. You can see what is being spent now and project to a $500mill revenue. If done correctly expansion should be relatively cost neutral. Like AFL have achieved, $150mill extra Tv revenue, cost of expansion around $50mill a year. Not a bad outcome.
 

taipan

Referee
Messages
22,410
I am going to continue to be a long playing record.I deal with actuals not guesstimates.
Actual income, actual expenditure where it is sourced and where it is allocated expense wise.
Can't be any clearer, not interested in guesstimates ,hypotheticals.
 

T-Boon

Coach
Messages
15,325
The guy who had vision was Smith and he just couldn't get the clubs to see the point of expansion. They don't get it at all.
 

BuffaloRules

Coach
Messages
14,272
The guy who had vision was Smith and he just couldn't get the clubs to see the point of expansion. They don't get it at all.

He had a vision of multiplying admin expenses by a factor of 10...

Expansion no... Otherwise why didn't he get it done alone like he did the deal with Gyngel?

He wasn't asking for feedback from the clubs on that bad boy..
 

BuffaloRules

Coach
Messages
14,272
I am going to continue to be a long playing record.I deal with actuals not guesstimates.
Actual income, actual expenditure where it is sourced and where it is allocated expense wise.
Can't be any clearer, not interested in guesstimates ,hypotheticals.

The revenue is raising significantly though... Come 2018 it will be beyond the AFL revenue when they bit the bullet the last time and expanded in 2012..

You have to take a risk eventually with expansion , and i think with one heartland ( Brisbane) and one difficult project (Perth) the time has come..
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
65,957
When did the NRL put the $40m into the club? When the NRL was in apportion to do so? When the Titans and Knights were not draining money?
And without News behind the scenes,I doubt it would have happened.

You failed to answer the questions
1. Do you think the $40mill plus invested in storm was worth it or should that money have been used for other things at the time?
2. How much money do you think the NRL needs to consolidate before it considers expansion if an increase from $180mill to $500mill a year in a decade isn't enough?
 
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Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
65,957
I am going to continue to be a long playing record.I deal with actuals not guesstimates.
Actual income, actual expenditure where it is sourced and where it is allocated expense wise.
Can't be any clearer, not interested in guesstimates ,hypotheticals.

Lol, then an internet discussion board for fans is not for you!
 

taipan

Referee
Messages
22,410
You failed to answer the questions
1. Do you think the $40mill plus invested in storm was worth it or should that money have been used for other things at the time?
2. How much money do you think the NRL needs to consolidate before it considers expansion if an increase from $180mill to $500mill a year in a decade isn't enough?

LOL.This is the same guy who apparently knows all about the internal NRL financials , who avoids every question I have thrown at him re NRL money available and expenditure.

You tell me the break up and I'll advise you of the rationale of the Storm money.

When I find out how much money they(the NRL) have available after costs, you'll be the first one to know.
What's more I won't whine doing it.
 

taipan

Referee
Messages
22,410
Lol, then an internet discussion board for fans is not for you!

Oh we have a live one here.There is a world of a difference between working with knowns, than just throwing up figures at random on a discussion board from unknowns.Especially ones who bang the AFL mantra and have a well known agenda.
Else one can manipulate figures any time they please. Bit like GWS crowds.
 
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taipan

Referee
Messages
22,410
The revenue is raising significantly though... Come 2018 it will be beyond the AFL revenue when they bit the bullet the last time and expanded in 2012..

You have to take a risk eventually with expansion , and i think with one heartland ( Brisbane) and one difficult project (Perth) the time has come..

Buff you are correct and at least adopt a rational approach.Revenue has risen greatly.My point is so will player's salaries,DO salaries,the $100m pa extra (repeat extra ) to grassroots.We now pay the Jillaroos.We have upped player payments on SOO to $30,000 per game and Tests $20.000 from memory.

Every man and his dog, has been banging on in the past about the grassroots, bush and regionals either struggling and being neglected.

My other point has been $30m minimum is tied up by clubs waiting to be sold and money to be repaid.The NRL whilst it owns two clubs has to continue funding them, this only happened in the last few years.

I don't know one person on the board, but I do suggest they would be all wanting to grow the game to a national game. If they aren't of that view, they should be dumped forthwith.

I also want a board and NRL clubs to operate fiscally responsibly.

If we can have 20 teams in a national comp, I would be leaping for joy.
But I don't want to stuff things up like Union.
AFL has had the jump on us financially ever since SL and the ensuing TV deals.They had money in the Bank to start,
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
65,957
You tell me the break up and I'll advise you of the rationale of the Storm money.

it.
Facts:
Part of the $8mill news ltd took out of the game every year went to the storm operations to cover losses
Then when news gave up the storm the NRL agreed to fund them $4.7mill a year on top of the club grant.
Add in each year of club grant they have received since their inception in 1998

So tell me had that many tens of millions,of $'S of NRL money invested in the Storm been worth it or should they have used those millions each year on grassroots etc etc?

You see where I am going with This? The money could have been spent on other things, just as it could now. That $30mill a year, minus tv value of a ninth game could go to gassroots or admin or touch to get the NRL badge on their merch or a multitude of other things, but maybe a second Brisbane club and a Perth club, or second NZ club, would be worth more in the long term?
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
65,957
Oh we have a live one here.There is a world of a difference between working with knowns, than just throwing up figures at random on a discussion board from unknowns.Especially ones who bang the AFL mantra and have a well known agenda.
Else one can manipulate figures any time they please. Bit like GWS crowds.

Mostly are known, take a read of the NRL annual report, the AFL,annual report, the clubs annual reports that produce them etc etc. the figures are there and when predicting into the future best guesstimates is all you can go on, there are no such things as crystal balls.
 

taipan

Referee
Messages
22,410
Facts:
Part of the $8mill news ltd took out of the game every year went to the storm operations to cover losses
Then when news gave up the storm the NRL agreed to fund them $4.7mill a year on top of the club grant.
Add in each year of club grant they have received since their inception in 1998

So tell me had that many tens of millions,of $'S of NRL money invested in the Storm been worth it or should they have used those millions each year on grassroots etc etc?

You see where I am going with This? The money could have been spent on other things, just as it could now. That $30mill a year, minus tv value of a ninth game could go to gassroots or admin or touch to get the NRL badge on their merch or a multitude of other things, but maybe a second Brisbane club and a Perth club, or second NZ club, would be worth more in the long term?


1) The Storm were in fact on the ARL's list for expansion, prior to SL.That's according to Arthurson.

2) if News Ltd had not been throwing in their share to fund the club, it may well not be here now.Not that I have any time for News.

3) Melbourne is the 2nd largest city population wise and economy wise in the country, and has an economy much more stable than WA.It thus is not affected to the extent WA economy is , which is heavily dependent on the resources industry.

4) The NRL was left with no choice but to continue funding the Storm .To pull the plug after the outlay made , would have burnt their bridges in the 2nd largest city and economy.

5) The grassroots then did not have the competition, from other codes particularly fumble ball in the Northern states, than it does now.The expenditure by the AFL is indication enough.

6) The choice is do you drastically reduce grassroots funding, to finance expansion in the current climate? Or do you take it up to the AFL?
The Oz economy went into a decline in the Sept qtr, that's not a good look. Neither is the unemployment rates for WA.

7)In fact at the time when the decision by the ARL was made to expand prior to SL, the original idea was to increase by only 2 teams.
Arthurson stated words to the effect , bugger it we will increase by 4.And we know the result the poor old Crushers ended up with players well past their prime and has been union players.And the eventual exit.

8)When the NRL was assisting the Storm , they were not having to spend millions to keep the Titans going, nor the Knights. When the GFC hit in 2008 the Titans were on a downhill spiral with their Cof E.
The Tinkler experiment with Newcastle was in the end a disaster.

9) In all your hypotheticals you ignore cost increases for players, the neglect of grassroots (according to the people at the coal face), the digital situation that the AFL in fact already have in place, the threat from other codes such as the NFL/French ru or even the RFU. If you are unable to compete with player payments, you lose
stars.

10) I'm fully aware of merchandise sales, memberships, and no doubt if clubs can secure minimum 20,000 members they are on the way to becoming financially stable.

11) In all the praise for the AFL expanding , they had the money to fund new clubs.The NRL are funding two current clubs. But their clubs lost $93m plus in toto, their expansion clubs part from the Swans are hardly firing on all cylinders.Let alone their players now in revolt over funding, and threatening strike action.
So it does comes down to money, when players want their decent slice of teh action.
You see where I'm coming from?
 

taipan

Referee
Messages
22,410
Mostly are known, take a read of the NRL annual report, the AFL,annual report, the clubs annual reports that produce them etc etc. the figures are there and when predicting into the future best guesstimates is all you can go on, there are no such things as crystal balls.


The figures are not broken down into detail.That has been one of the complaints.The need to spell it out.

Reports can be a marketing exercise to placate the fans and clubs, the nuts and bolts can be far different than the final offering.
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
65,957
There will always be $x amount of finite dollars in the pot. It is up to the ARLC what it decides to spend it on. If spending $100mill on grass roots and having no expansion or $70-90mill on grassroots and having two new expansion teams is the best strategic decision I guess we won't know for another 5 years. There will always be lots of mouths to feed, some of us believe that expansion should be a strategic priority that will have long term rewards, others feel that putting the money elsewhere is more important. Such is life.
 

taipan

Referee
Messages
22,410
There will always be $x amount of finite dollars in the pot. It is up to the ARLC what it decides to spend it on. If spending $100mill on grass roots and having no expansion or $70-90mill on grassroots and having two new expansion teams is the best strategic decision I guess we won't know for another 5 years. There will always be lots of mouths to feed, some of us believe that expansion should be a strategic priority that will have long term rewards, others feel that putting the money elsewhere is more important. Such is life.

The very reason it is spending on grassroots that figure,is due to prior admins neglecting that side.The $100m is based on the 2022 TV deal, not the current one.A hell of a difference.
The admin under Smith who I thought was doing a reasonable job, overspent on high flyers in teh admin, who TBH did very little. His salary $2m, Greenberg's $1m.

Does it sink in about the NRL owning two clubs and not only owning them, but having to fund the trading deficiencies ongoing.
This was brought up today, when it was announced the Knights are trying to organise the club, as being community owned.

Of course there are a lot of mouths to feed.
Sell off the NRL owned clubs, get loan repayments finalised, remove wastage and duplication, get your base strong so you can long term support expansion.Do you ignore a digital dept, where you control news and info and marketing, or just let the AFL go on its merry way?

It's useless having expansion if your base to supply players, is either marking time or withering.
And you need a Future Fund for infrastructure and preparing for bad years.It all costs money.

One of the Board Members was formerly on the AFL Commission (Samuels).He is very pro expansion, but I suggest even he knows what financial limitations the code has ATM.

You and I know under present circumstances the only way you could get expansion up and running by 2022, is relocation or removal of Sydney clubs.You may want it, many fans do not.
 

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