Expansion by division (aka, national 2nd division with promotion & relegation)

[herbert henry1908]

Let me start off by saying I know the cultural shift required for having divisions in the NRL combined with promotion & relegation will be huge, and very difficult. But I think the benefits of it are worth striving for.

Expanding the NRL to 18 or 20 teams is fraught with danger, the amount of dead games but also the amount of bad games has to be a serious concern.

So, a modest proposal

*2 x divisions of 12 teams.

*Promotion & relegation

*Top 5 finals

*Every team plays each other twice, proper home & away season.



24 teams total would also allow the game to expand into all corners, plus it would reduce the season to 22 rounds allowing extra time for representative footy.



If such a plan was to have any chance of working, the salary cap for the 2nd division would need to be really healthy. Enough to attract good talent, and enough to stop players from going overseas or to rugby.

As I said at the top, I understand this would be a massive cultural shift. But the benefits to this system are simply massive.

The six games a weekend in the top division would be extraordinarily high quality footy.

 

[Styles clash]

Terrible idea. People won't watch a second division. This works in soccer, in some countries, because there's enough clubs with support to pull it off.

 

[herbert henry1908]

Terrible idea. People won't watch a second division. This works in soccer, in some countries, because there's enough clubs with support to pull it off.

I think they would watch, at least on TV. 12 teams in the top comp leaves enough talent to make the bottom division interesting. Would essentially be a combination of younger talent and seasons vets.

Plus it works for soccer in most countries, including countries smaller than us.

 

[Angry_eel]

What happens if Brisbane and Parramatta get relegated in the same year. NRL will lose 500K tv audience.

Unless you get rid of the salary cap, it's not gonna happen.

 

[adamkungl]

In theory it's a decent idea, in practise it would be a huge gamble and wildly controversial - probably too much so to ever get off the ground.

No one in Australia watches second divisions now, Our current 2nd divisions are meaningless. No one cares if you win, there's no reward for winning, and most clubs are reserve grades or feeders.
BUT if there was the promotion carrot, and the standard was still of a high quality, maybe they would.
Big gamble, big cultural shift though.

For arguments sake:
The club funding bill of an 18 team NRL at $13M each with a $10M salary cap is $234M.
A 2x12 division structure could be achieved for the same cost:
the top division has a salary cap of $10M, funded to $12M
and the 2nd division has a salary cap of $6M, funded to $7.2M
comes to a total of $234M

 

[Captain Apollo]

I keep hearing this mooted in plenty of sports in Australia and often it is compared to football overseas. The reason it works overseas in football is that the countries often have large populations which follow teams regardless of what division they are in. Hence the lower divisions are able to generate revenue which puts them a lot closer to the top tier teams in their country than it would in Australia.

Fact is we have lower divisions, but hardly anyone turns up to them. Most games are played at "park" football ground which offer little amenity, which works as a disincentive to turn up. Further no one is clamouring to pay big money for the TV rights for these competitions. Hence our lower grade teams which are not linked to any NRL club do not have anywhere near the capacity to generate revenue to come anywhere close to our worst off NRL clubs. So from a financial view point alone it is crazy to think we will have all these teams able to jump up and match it with financial powerful clubs like say the Broncos, Roosters, Eels etc.

The other problem is, what happens if you have a lot of the "big" clubs get relegated and they get replaced by teams from small areas? For example, imagine an NRL competition where (for arguments sake) the Broncos, Storm and Cowboys were relegated and teams promoted to replace them were from Hobart, Newtown and Darwin? Do you really think Fox Sports and Channel 9 will be dumping huge sums of money to televise that competition? Also do you really think there is all this untapped corporate support they can just miraculously find to exploit as new teams keep coming up?

I just think in a country with a population of around 25 million that promotion/relegation is unrealistic.

 

[adamkungl]

I keep hearing this mooted in plenty of sports in Australia and often it is compared to football overseas. The reason it works overseas in football is that the countries often have large populations which follow teams regardless of what division they are in. Hence the lower divisions are able to generate revenue which puts them a lot closer to the top tier teams in their country than it would in Australia.

Fact is we have lower divisions, but hardly anyone turns up to them. Most games are played at "park" football ground which offer little amenity, which works as a disincentive to turn up. Further no one is clamouring to pay big money for the TV rights for these competitions. Hence our lower grade teams which are not linked to any NRL club do not have anywhere near the capacity to generate revenue to come anywhere close to our worst off NRL clubs. So from a financial view point alone it is crazy to think we will have all these teams able to jump up and match it with financial powerful clubs like say the Broncos, Roosters, Eels etc.

The other problem is, what happens if you have a lot of the "big" clubs get relegated and they get replaced by teams from small areas? For example, imagine an NRL competition where (for arguments sake) the Broncos, Storm and Cowboys were relegated and teams promoted to replace them were from Hobart, Newtown and Darwin? Do you really think Fox Sports and Channel 9 will be dumping huge sums of money to televise that competition? Also do you really think there is all this untapped corporate support they can just miraculously find to exploit as new teams keep coming up?

I just think in a country with a population of around 25 million that promotion/relegation is unrealistic.

I'd say to forget about our existing 2nd divisions for this. You're right in that those clubs are not fit for professional level, except for maybe Norths and a handful of QLD Cup teams.

The 24 teams might look like
the existing 16 +
North Sydney-Central Coast
Perth
Adelaide
PNG
Wellington
Christchurch
Ipswich
Redcliffe

All realistic or at least aspirational NRL expansion areas even in our existing system


Still, the hurdles are probably too big to ever achieve such a competition.

 

[Walter sobchak]

2 10 team conferences with teams playing each other twice both home and away in their respective conference giving them 18 games alongside another 9 crossover conference games giving you a total of 27 regular season games.

The top 4 teams from each conference go into a straight 8 team shootout playoff series giving the 2 potential finalists a 30 game season. What’s not to like??

No mergers or relocations needed. Just add Perth, Brisbane2, NZ2 and Adelaide to the existing 16 teams.

 

[Styles clash]

I keep hearing this mooted in plenty of sports in Australia and often it is compared to football overseas. The reason it works overseas in football is that the countries often have large populations which follow teams regardless of what division they are in. Hence the lower divisions are able to generate revenue which puts them a lot closer to the top tier teams in their country than it would in Australia.

Fact is we have lower divisions, but hardly anyone turns up to them. Most games are played at "park" football ground which offer little amenity, which works as a disincentive to turn up. Further no one is clamouring to pay big money for the TV rights for these competitions. Hence our lower grade teams which are not linked to any NRL club do not have anywhere near the capacity to generate revenue to come anywhere close to our worst off NRL clubs. So from a financial view point alone it is crazy to think we will have all these teams able to jump up and match it with financial powerful clubs like say the Broncos, Roosters, Eels etc.

The other problem is, what happens if you have a lot of the "big" clubs get relegated and they get replaced by teams from small areas? For example, imagine an NRL competition where (for arguments sake) the Broncos, Storm and Cowboys were relegated and teams promoted to replace them were from Hobart, Newtown and Darwin? Do you really think Fox Sports and Channel 9 will be dumping huge sums of money to televise that competition? Also do you really think there is all this untapped corporate support they can just miraculously find to exploit as new teams keep coming up?

I just think in a country with a population of around 25 million that promotion/relegation is unrealistic.

No salary cap in soccer means the big clubs from the big cities rarely get relegated.

 

[Walter sobchak]

No salary cap in soccer means the big clubs from the big cities rarely get relegated.

Exactly. They have the biggest streams of revenue from huge attendance figures and sponsorship deals as well as being owned by billionaire Russians and Persian gulf sheiks.

 

[siv]

My take on this is a initial 18 teams 25 rounds expansion

Setup a new NSW Cup based on RM Cup & NSW Country divisions plus Adelaide Perth

Have a 6 way one of promotion playoff with Top 2 from each comp NSW Cup Qld Cup NZ Cup play a 5 round series with top 2 teams promoted

National Reserve Grade for NRL 30 plus 6 players is also a given to facilitate even playing field within Tier 2

Then play a promotion / relegation finals series at Wooden spooners home ground

It would be a 4 team round robin. Wooden Spooner, Qld Cup winner NSW Cup Winner and NZ Cup winner.

Top team after 3 rounds is in the NRL next season

This will create huge interest in the Tier 2 comps

We could expand to include PNG Cup and a maybe Pacific Club Cup for Fiji Tonga Samoa clubs

 

[T-Boon]

I think people will watch a second division. What they don’t watch is a reserve grade.
I am a fan of 2 divisions with promotion/relegation.

 

[Perth Red]

Dont agree with P+R, my team has been through the mill with relegation a few times in UK and its nearly been the death of the club each time. We've seen whats happened with Bradford, Leigh, Widnes etc. It doesnt work in a small sport like RL as there isnt enough money to have the gap between the divisions small enough that going up or going down doesnt cause major problems.

 

[titoelcolombiano]

I'm up for a fully professional national second division featuring the strongest NSW Cup and QLD Cup teams alongside expansion teams like Fiji, PNG Hunters, NZ 2, Perth but not with P&R. We can't risk a key team like the Melbourne Storm or New Zealand Warriors getting relegated, it would be a disaster for RL in those areas.

Have a second teir with teams running independent of NRL teams, playing at suburban grounds to offering a point of difference ot the NRL (as it moves to more modern stadia) would mean that RL can cater to all fans.

 

[Perth Red]

Currently the NRL is paying the second tier clubs in QRL and NSWRL comps $325k a club. Maybe a national comp of 14 clubs with a NRL grant of $750k a team would be a better investment?
But then what about reserve grade for NRL clubs? Should NRL clubs run a separate reserve grade they fund themselves, but then wouldn't that just draw the best talent out of the second tier comp into the reserve grade comp hoping for a shot at a NRL spot leaving the second grade comp as effectively a third grade comp?

No easy answer to the second tier and pathway for new clubs problem.

 

[MugaB]

Depends on what it costs regarding Staff/Stadium for the lower grade comps, if all the fields were owned by the clubs, and not being rented by the clubs, maybe it wouldn't be so expensive to hold more comps, or a 2nd/3rd division

 

[Cdd]

I’m not sure about promotion and relegation but a genuine second tier with independant clubs proving themselves for a future NRL spot is a must.

Do away with the Queensland and NSW cup competitions and create a national second tier.

PNG Hunters
Cairns
Sunshine Coast
Ipswich
Redcliffe
Central Queensland
Perth
Adelaide
Christchurch
Wellington
Central Cost
North Sydney Bears
Newtown
Western Sydney
Fiji/Suva
Geelong

A comp like that could get the sponsorship and TV money required to run even.

Would be a great league for developing players and priming expansion clubs.

If the NRL put out an offer for clubs to apply for a place in the league they’d have some fantastic bids from most of those mentioned above.

 

[Perth Red]

I’m not sure about promotion and relegation but a genuine second tier with independant clubs proving themselves for a future NRL spot is a must.

Do away with the Queensland and NSW cup competitions and create a national second tier.

PNG Hunters
Cairns
Sunshine Coast
Ipswich
Redcliffe
Central Queensland
Perth
Adelaide
Christchurch
Wellington
Central Cost
North Sydney Bears
Newtown
Western Sydney
Fiji/Suva
Geelong

A comp like that could get the sponsorship and TV money required to run even.

Would be a great league for developing players and priming expansion clubs.

If the NRL put out an offer for clubs to apply for a place in the league they’d have some fantastic bids from most of those mentioned above.

Like I said the problem is any talent that comes through will get signed into the nrl reserve grade Comp meaning this Comp could be very limited in its quality.

 

[Cdd]

Like I said the problem is any talent that comes through will get signed into the nrl reserve grade Comp meaning this Comp could be very limited in its quality.

That’s the same situation for ANY second tier in any country. It doesn’t stop it from being a great comp though.

It’s basically just a combination of current Queensland and NSW cup sides with a few expansion teams thrown in, some of which would increase the player pool anyway. It would be of higher quality that the current state championships. More players from PNG, Fiji, WA, SA , NZ and Victoria getting a chance. Creating more pathways.

 

[MugaB]

I’m not sure about promotion and relegation but a genuine second tier with independant clubs proving themselves for a future NRL spot is a must.

Do away with the Queensland and NSW cup competitions and create a national second tier.

PNG Hunters
Cairns
Sunshine Coast
Ipswich
Redcliffe
Central Queensland
Perth
Adelaide
Christchurch
Wellington
Central Cost
North Sydney Bears
Newtown
Western Sydney
Fiji/Suva
Geelong

A comp like that could get the sponsorship and TV money required to run even.

Would be a great league for developing players and priming expansion clubs.

If the NRL put out an offer for clubs to apply for a place in the league they’d have some fantastic bids from most of those mentioned above.

Western Sydney? Is that the magpies?