General weights discussion thread

[abpanther]

Hey all,

Just created this thread because I think it would be good to have a general thread for people to discuss weights training. I've noticed some pretty valuable discussion happening on several threads, would be good to have it all in one place.

Ok I have some general questions that I would like to get some advice on or at least generate some discussion. I started doing Stronglifts 5x5 in January this year after a prolonged absence from weights training. I have generally found it good in terms of getting my base strength in all the compound lifts to a good level.


- I find squats the hardest exercise by far to get myself up for both physically and mentally. I had never done squats before until I started this Stronglifts program. I progressed in squats up to about 90kg without stalling before I strained my back and had to take 2 weeks off. In that time I did plenty of research and found that I had technique issues, I dropped the weight down to 60kg and started again. I have since progressed to around 105kg, however during that time I made the decision to only do squats once per week as I found it too difficult to do 3x per week at a heavy weight, did anyone else experience this?

- I have now stalled three times at around 105kg (as in I've failed 5x5 3 times, deloaded, progressed to the weight, failed 5x5 3 times, deloaded, etc). Given I weigh around 92kg, my question is (a) does this seem like an average weight to stall on 5x5? I ask because I hear people doing 150kg+ and wonder if I'm doing something wrong. I have stalled similarly in my overhead press but my bench is still going (90kg) so I wonder if I'm doing something wrong with my squats.

- The logical next step for me with squats is to move to 3x5, for those who have done this, do you essentially drop those 2 sets out completely or do you replace them with warm up sets so you're still doing 7-8 sets total? I don't really like the idea of dropping more sets

- I'm considering whether with the exercises that I do stall 3 times on (e.g. squats & overhead press) I'm better off moving to a progression system where I do warm up sets and then work up to my max weight and do it 1x5. Does anyone do similarly with heavy squats or is it generally accepted that you go 5x5, then 3x5, then 1x5?

- Also, how do you guys do flat bench with heavy weight on your own? The rack I use at the gym has safety bars that are useful for squats but useless for bench as you can't use them otherwise they interfere with lowering the bar all the way to your chest. Therefore I have no safety outlet if I can't get the weight up and have to drop it onto my chest and roll it off, that becomes very difficult when the weight keeps going up. Just wondering what everyone else does.

- For those who do cable crossovers for chest, what technique do you use? I've seen so many variations (horizontal action, uppercut action, downward action, feet together, etc).

 

[Pete Cash]

I had a long post wrote out and I closed it like a spastic.

to me the biggest flaw with something like stronglifts is eventually its going to be too difficult to recover squatting that much a week without the aid of steroids. Now your squat isn't bad for your bodyweight it is smack on what is considered a novice lift which is about where 6 months of training would get you.

http://www.exrx.net/Testing/WeightLifting/SquatStandardsKg.html (for reference)

So thats nothing to be ashamed of. Considering how strong your bench is (you are getting towards the intermediate class with that one) I would guess your issue is technique with your squat. In general stalling is caused by lack of muscle recovery (are you eating enough food are you getting enough sleep) or technique. That said with all success beginner programmes there is a risk that stronglifts and the like become a bit of a mantra. What I would possibly suggest is that you switch it up and attempt a short term goal orientated routine like westside.

http://www.muscleandstrength.com/workouts/modified-westside-barbell-strength-workout.html

You could just be in a funk from doing 6 months of the same routine. Westside is designed to go over 8 weeks with the goal to increase your 1rm. After the 8 weeks you can switch it back to strong lifts, try Wendler or if you want to you can train something designed more for muscle hypertrophy than strength.

 

[Cliffhanger]

With stronglifts once you've deloaded on squats twice you switich to 3x5, you don't need to replace those sets with warm ups, once you deload another two times you switch to 1x5 and after deloading twice again you switch to madcow.

Stronglifts is designed for beginners while madcow is for more advanced trainers, it optimises your recovery by having you lift with different intensities through out your workout.

I just finished my sixth week of stronglifts and haven't deloaded yet, so many times I though there was no way I wouldn't have to deload for ohp next time I did it, but because there was such a gap between the sessions I found I could do it.

 

[Pete Cash]

How good are rack pulls. I integrate them into my speed squat day and they are just great fun. Set it at 40 % my 1rm on deadlifts and explode up, hold the weight for 10 seconds at the top of the lift really gripping hard and lower back to the safeties in a really slow, steady manner.

 

[Cliffhanger]

Speed sets are another great way to beat a plateau (in fact I would reccommend this even if you're not plateauing on stronglifts) is to alternated every two weeks between doing strong lift like sets and doings explosive sets, for the explosive sets I recommend aiming for around 55 per cent of your 1-rm but do explosive movements. If you're confident enough throwing and catching the bar do that.

This is great because it doesn't deplete you like doing stronglift sets will, yet still works your fast twitch fibres.

How do you incorporate them in Pete?

 

[Cliffhanger]

The conjugate method is a good one. This is the system the Broncos have been using since Dan Baker started conditioning them in 1995.

http://www.westside-barbell.com/articles/using-the-conjugate-system/

 

[abpanther]

Firstly, thanks everyone for the feedback, some very knowledgeable posters on here.

So I basicaly dropped my squats to 3x5 and managed to squeeze past 105kg (just), to be honest though I don't see too much more progression at 3x5, might get to 115kg at best.

At this stage here is where I'm at with Stronglifts

Squat - 115kg (3x5 now)
Bench Press - 90kg (1 failed run at 5x5, have deloaded to 80kg)
Overhead Press - 60kg (3x5)
Barbell Row (87.5kg (1 failed run at 5x5, have deloaded and back up to 82.5kg)
Deadlift - 150kg (1x5)

I did make some changes to the set up though, only doing each exercise once per week, I do other exercises after my Stronglift exercises and do 4 sets for each.

Here is my current workout schedule

Day 1 (Shoulders/Legs)
Overhead Press
Upright Rows
Arnie Presses
Side Raises
Rear Raises
Lunges
Leg Press
Calf Raises

Day 2 (Back/Biceps)
Barbell Rows
Deadlifts
Pull Ups
Chin Ups
Seated Row/Dumbell Rows
Barbell Curls/Preacher Curls
Incline Dumbells/Concentration Curls

Day 3 (Chest/Triceps)
Squats
Bench Press
Incline Dumbells
Flys/Cable Crossovers
Dips
Triceps Pulldowns/Triceps Extensions
Lying Extensions/Dumbell Extensions

I moved Squats to Day 3 as otherwise it makes my Day 1 workout way too long. I'm open to incorporating some different exercises to keep things interesting.

I think moving to 3x5 will help for the short term, however I am keen to hear about option for mixing things up.

Pete, I checked out Westlife, looks ok, but I can only get to the gym 3 days per week so probably doesn't work for me. You mentioned going to something that is more for muscle hypertrophy rather than strength training, do you have any suggestions along those lines as I am interested in this?

Cliffy, thanks for clearing up the 3x5 deloading. Sounds like you are travelling well, good stuff. Your speed sets approach intrigues me, would I essentially do exactly the same exercises I do now just with 55% 1-RM and do them quickly?

Haven't heard of rack pulls before, might incorporate them

 

[abpanther]

I grabbed this off another forum so it's not mine, the guy who wrote it up is pretty well respected on their and many are reporting great results with it, what do you guys think of it?

Cliffy particularly keen to get your thoughts given you've studied this stuff

OK guys I have been working this thing for a while and am going to let you in on what I have been doing.

Basically it comes back to some stuff I said in the other thread. At some point you have to decide what you are training for. I think it's safe to say most guys in here have likewise goals. I still do competitive powerlifting and fight twice a week. Other guys here want to lose weight and get fit and some other guys want to increase their bench.


Today I am going to cover the strength training stuff and throw out what I believe is the best program to use for gaining strength -


It's all connected. Fact is, if you are lifting weights your goal should be to do the things weights do best...

1. build strength
2. build muscle

No one should EVER say "I don't care if I get stronger". This makes no sense. It's like saying "I don't care if my car's transmission works properly or not." If you were going to pick one thing to do regarding health, strength improvement should be number one. It increases quality of life more than anything else you can do. Every old guy you know says he has what? A bad back or bad knees or something like that. Strength training increases bone density, creates a better foundation of mass so your metabolism uses food better, strengthens tendons and ligaments and will ward off the "bad back bad knees" syndrome.

Ok so we all know this. So don't tell me "I don't want to get stronger." Don't go to the gym them. And don't mistake "getting stronger" for becoming a championship powerlifter. Look you don't wake up one day deadlifting 800 pounds by accident. You're probably never going to accomplish such unless that is your lifetime goal and have someone who can supply you some good "medicine".

So you have to build strength. So the basic movements to do that with are...

Squat
Deadlift
Bench
Overhead Press of some sort
Chins
Dips
Rows
Lunges

You will notice that aside from the bench and over head press the rest are movements where your body is moving through space essentially. Aside from the lunge these are all closed chain movements. The reason I include the lunge in a strength training program is for preventing injuries and balancing out strength imbalances in the lower body. Yes you need to do this for the upperbody and to fix this I rotate in dumbbell movements but I do not consider them a staple because you have a big variety of joint rotations in the upperbody where in the lower body the different types of lunges are really all you need.

You also need to "practice" the movements you want to get strong at. Getting stronger is really about the nervous system and motor function than grinding out reps to build muscle with the side effect as strength. If that doesn't make sense let me explain it like this.

If you work up to an all out set of squats and go to failure, this is the best way to stimulate hypertrophy. You cause massive microtrauma at a cellular level to the fibers, which then must be repaired and with proper rest and nutrition they grow back thicker and stronger, but it's a slow process. This is the fastest way to get big but it is NOT the fastest way to gain absolute strength.

Gaining strength is about neuromuscular firing from the nervous system. You teach the body to do something over and over again and it will become very good at doing this. Everyone knows how this works from video games to writing your name. Some will say "yes but that doesn't involve strength". Sure it does. Ever injure your writing hand and then try to write your name? It's hard as hell isn't it? The damaged muscles are weaker and writing is difficult because of pain and their inability to fire like they usually do, and you write your name all screwed up. If you are used to playing a video game and someone hands you a new style of controller all of a sudden you can't play worth a damn because of muscle memory. If you take a break from that video game and come back you aren't as good as you were because of all the nervous systems involved in helping you do that.

Squatting, benching, whatever is no different. You need to teach your body how to fire using proper leveraged technique on the big movements over and over again so that they become very efficient at them. The strange thing about this is, you don't need to use maximal loads in order to get super strong. This is a myth that has been around for a long time. Yes using maximal loads for low reps will build strength very much so, but you can't use maximal loads for a long time because it is much harder on the nervous system, so you can't do them as often, and second they tend to ramp up the loads really fast then you level off or go backwards all together.

This is why a lot of guys will experience this. They will max out on bench one week at say 225. The next week they do it again, and to their delight they hit 240. Then they hit 255 and then 260. But they stall at 260 the next week, and the next week, and the next week, and then they can't get it.

This is what I believe is the point where the nervous system stops firing correctly (the injured hand) and recovery time is not being met. You can't increase the time between benching because then you get to a point where you aren't practicing the movement often enough. So you see the same thing. The lift starts going down, and down, and soon you are back to benching 225 or 240 and you wonder what went wrong.

This is why using percentages in the 68-85% range of your max is optimal. Then at the end of the cycle you use maximal percentages for a short period in the 90-105% to further boost strength. You can only hold those periods of strength for a short while, then your strength will taper and level off, so the point of the cycle is to increase that level off period so that your FOUNDATION of strength increases each time. In other words, you start a cycle knowing you can bench 225 for a max 9 out of 10 times you would walk into the gym. The cycle drives you up so that you hit 270 for a solid single. However you are not always going to be able to walk into the gym and hit that 270. That's just a fact of training. What it does do however is make it so that you can now walk into the gym and hit 260 9 out of 10 times, instead of 225.

 

[abpanther]

Now that all of this is laid out, how do you plan a cycle for strength gains?

Obviously the first thing you have to know is your max. The second thing you have to know is where you want to get to, and how much time.

So obviously being realistic, you are not going to add 100 pounds to your squat in 6 weeks. From an advanced level, I know guys who have trained a whole year to add 5 pounds to their bench. 5 pounds. 1 year. Course that's a guy that was benching over 600 at the time, but you get the point.

The body doesn't gain strength in a linear fashion forever. If it did I'd be benching a million and squatting 2 million by now. I am not.

But it does in fact, work for a while, and when the stimulus changes or weak areas are strengthened it will move again. Of course in the end there is always a genetic ceiling for how much strength you can gain.

So let's take a guy that has a 300 bench and wants to get to 335 in 12 weeks. How could we go about that?

Before everything else, technique has to come first. I am not going to go into the detail of that because well, it's boring to write about IMO and second, someone qualified needs to show you. Qualified means NOT a personal trainer. Personal trainers, for the most part, are idiots who know nothing about getting stronger unless they actually train powerliters and athletes. And then they aren't called personal trainers they are called strength coaches.

So back to the bencher. Obviously he has to bench and use enough volume to practice the lift, and use loads that help teach the nervous system to fire that load with power. After we practice the lift, he will do assistance movements for the musculature involved in the lift.

What musculature is involved in benching? The pecs, delts, triceps, biceps, forearms, lats, and upper back. So basically your upperbody.

We don't have to do an exercise for each of those obviously. There is a lot of overlap in compound movements. The bench itself strengthens the pressing muscles (chest, delts, triceps). The biceps and forearm stabilize the elbow and shoulder joint, the lats and upperback keep the body stable on the bench (in fact in benching most of your pressure should be on the upper back).

So what does he actually do for the bench over the next 12 weeks?

His intensity (intensity being the percentage of his one rep max) will wave but I will use what I call "extended warm ups" to vary the volume. This will teach the movement as you warm up, while at the same time keep the overall volume in check to avoid overtraining the nervous system and the musculature.

So let's look at a 12 week cycle and I will show you what I am talking about.



Week 1 - 8 sets to 68% @ 8 reps
week 2 - 8 sets to 70% @ 8 reps
week 3 - 8 sets to 75% @ 8 reps
week 4 - 7 sets to 80% @ 5 reps
week 5 - 6 sets to 82% @ 5 reps
week 6 - 4 sets to 85% @ 5 reps
week 7 - 5 sets to 82% @ 5 reps
week 8 - 5 sets to 85% @ 5 reps
week 9 - 6 sets to 92% @ 3 reps
week 10 - 6 sets to 95% @ 3 reps
week 11 - 6 sets to 100% @ 2 reps
week 12 - 112% = 335 pounds

Ok this is how this works. The "8 sets" here include warm up sets. Let me also add, it can be more than 8 sets. But I require a minimum of 8 sets total. You will work up to the last set that day for the required intensity. So on week 1 our 300 bencher would do the following.

bench - 95 x 8, 95 x 8, 115 x 8, 135 x 8, 155 x 8, 175 x 8, 195 x 8, 205 x 8

The last set ended up 210 because that is 68% listed in week 1, and he did 8 total sets @ 8 reps per set to get there.

Some will ask "what is the point of a 300 bencher doing a warm up set with 95 then 115 then 135?" The point is to reinforce technique, be explosive on the positive portion of the rep and to work out the "kinks" before getting to the last set. None of these sets should be near failure obviously, thought the last set may have you feeling "worked". The negative should be CONTROLLED and the positive should be semi explosive. I say semi because I don't want guys screwing up their elbows by hyperextending them on the press portion. The speed bench that Westside espoused for years did just that for a lot of guys.

How you set your extended warm ups are up to you, but I suggest making medium jumps. Starting out too heavy can cause a lot of fatigue by the end and later in the cycle you most likely will miss target reps because of it, grinding and straining to get the reps. This is NOT what we are after. We are after technique and repetition reenforcement.

What he would do now is a movement for the upperback or lats. This will either be a row or some kind of chinup or pulldown. On the assistance work we are looking at doing 1 top set or 10-15 reps. The reason for this repetition range is because it's been seen/proven/done over and over again that this is the best range for muscular growth. We want more muscle in the areas involved in the bench because we want to increase our leverages by decreasing ROM. We decrease ROM by using good technique, and by getting bigger through the back first (our foundation for benching) and through the chest as well. We increase the size of our arms because the larger the levers are, the more area the weight is spread across as well, also increasing our own leverage ability.

Our guy does chins. He works up to 1 top set to failure @ 13 reps. However we are going to use a technique here called 50% sets. This is where you go to failure, rest 1 minute, then repeat the movement trying to get at least half the reps you got the first time around. Our guy gets say, 6. That's ok, he's still doing good work.

After that he does tricep pushdowns, 1 top set to failure for 15 reps and then 1 set of incline db curls for injury prevention. 1 top set to failure at 15 reps as well.

So the whole workout looked like this...

bench - 95 x 8, 95 x 8, 115 x 8, 135 x 8, 155 x 8, 175 x 8, 195 x 8, 205 x 8
chins - body x 3 x 5, x 13 50% x 6
pushdowns - 130 x 10, stack x 15
incline db curls - 30's x 8, 50's x 15

So what we have here is work that reinforces the work on the nervous system to fire strongly on the bench, then we use low volume with high intensity to build mass and strength on both the low end and top end of the bench, along with some injury prevention work.

 

[abpanther]

Ok now that we've talked a little about setting up a strength program and the intensities based around it let's talk about program design.

Let me first say that nothing is written in stone. Everyone has movements that feel "good" to them and that they like. So long as you are progressing in your big movements then what you do for assistance work is fine. I think the main thing to remember about assistance work is this...

1. it should help weak points and drive up your big lifts

2. you shouldn't be overly concerned about them progressing as they can and will be dropped fairly often

This is how you decide if an assistance movement is helping you. Your squat has been stuck in a rut for a while and you add in leg press, your leg press climbs and then your squat climbs. This would be an indication that something in the leg press strengthened a weak area. Once the leg press stagnates along with the squat drop it. If the leg press stagnates but the squat is still climbing, leave it in. If the squat drops and the leg press is still going up, drop the leg press and deload the squat (deload meaning you drop the weight and reps for a week or two and allow the body to recover a bit).

Make sense?

Ok good.

Now with that out of the way here is the split that I have personally found the most effective for building strength and mass over the last 20 years of my lifting.

day 1 - bench

day 2 - squat/deadlift variation

day 3 - bench variation

day 4 - squat variation/deadlift

Now if you want to sub the bench for incline or overhead press or dips, that's fine. Just pick a compound movement and drive for big gains in that lift for the next few months.

Do not exceed the 4 lifts in a session rule. So on the bench day you can pick 3 exercises that will help the bench AT MOST. I think it's even better to just do 2 besides bench.

"But biggie, won't I shrink if I don't work the muscles for 92 angles like it says in Flex?"

Hell no. If anything you will probably get bigger because you'll pour more effort into the few exercises and you will recover better.

I would suggest on bench day to do something for the chest/shoulders/arms then a row or chin. If you opt for 4 exercises do something for forearms/biceps to help in injury prevention.

So bench day would be like this...

Bench
Chest/shoulder/tricep movement (dips, hammer bench, db bench, db incline, etc)
Chin or Row

Squat and deadlift variation day are a little more straight forward. You're going to squat first, then pick a variation of the deadlift.

Squat -
Deadlift variation - Romanian deadlift, stiff legged, db deadlifts, suitcase deadlift, 1 legged deadlift, snatch grip deads, rack deads of various height, etc

On the deadlift variation work up to a nice set of 5. This means something you can move with speed, but also have to take a deep breath before you start. In other words, it should not be super heavy, nor light. This weight could vary each week.

After this do some ab and calf work or go home. It all depends on your energ level. These two exercises tend to hit almost every muscle in the body to some degree. I recommend the ab roller if you choose to do an ab exercise as it takes the hip flexors out of the movement and also works the lats, triceps, and entire anterior chain.

On the squat variation day it's the same, only reversed (LOL).

Squat variation - front squats, lunges, 1 legged squats, hacks, leg press, etc. Basically just a quad exercise. Keep the reps a little higher here and work up to a top set of 10.

Deadlift -

Same as before, do some abs and calves and call it a day.

Take a day off between each session. If you need more, take more days off. If you feel great train two days in a row.

There is one thing I don't like about setting a "planned schedule" and that is, sometimes you are tired and truly need a day off. Take it. Then there are days where you feel like you could train but are scheduled off. The body doesn't work by a schedule on paper it has it's own biorythems and if you have trained long enough you will know what days you feel great and could train and what days you shouldn't. I do suggest making a schedule however don't feel guilty about taking a day off when you feel really tired or training an extra day when you feel good. On the bad days do some recovery work like foam rolling, stretching, and a good light walk for about 30 minutes.

DO NOT overlook what I just wrote. Foam roll, stretch, and walk. The body needs these things for active recovery and you will dig a giant recovery hole is you don't take some days off here and there and do the recovery workouts. I do not schedule them because I want people to learn what their body is telling them. When you start to do this you will know when to back down, and when to ramp up, and your body will start to let you know when it needs a break and when you can push it hard. Gains will come much faster when you do this rather than always adhering to a set schedule.

Now the caveat to this is that not everyone can do this, or even learn how to do it. If you keep a good journal and pay attention to your diet, sleep, life stressed and note how they have affected your training you will learn what you can tolerate and can't and you can then plan a more effective routine for future training. When you live by a piece of paper you will, in the long run, lose progress because you will have neglected the signs your body is giving you. So be a good listener and pay attention.

Diet stuff will be coming up next.

 

[abpanther]

Ok guys let's get into the diet stuff.

As the saying goes, abs are made in the kitchen. This is mostly true. Cardio does play a part but we all know fat guys/gals who do lots of walking and treadmill work, and yet they are still fat. But I will get to that.

Something I really don't do, and have never done is count calories. My reasoning is that the mirror, and my lifts will tell me more about how my diet is going than anything else. If I need to get leaner I add in more cardio.

Let me state this again, if your diet is in check and YOU KNOW it's good and you want to get leaner ADD IN MORE CARDIO. Do NOT drop more calories or food. This is bad. You will get leaner eating 3500 calories a day but causing a deficit due to exercise than dropping to 1500 a day and doing 1800 cals worth of work. This is a fact and I've seen it over and over again. Not only that, I've helped guys get bigger and leaner on a few occasions through this method.

Now (and I'm sure you guys want to know more about that and we'll get to it) let's talk about diet.

First let's talk about the two extreme body types - endo's and ecto's. A meso can do almost anything and get bigger and fairly lean depending on the other part of his genetic makeup (you have meso's with some ecto mixed in and meso's with some endo mixed in, the former is the best to have but we have no control over that).

Skinny guys (endomorph) - So the endomorph guy always thinks he eats a lot. But he doesn't. I have heard from every skinny guy I know "you should see how much I eat." Then when I ask him to tell me it's always like "well I ate a bowl of cereal this morning, then at lunch I had a hot dog but tonight I ate a whole plate of spaghetti and then some bread too."

Woahhhhoahhh slow down there champion eater.

When I went from 175 to 205 pounds over the summer of being 17 years old, I ate so much everyday, at each meal that I hurt. Sometimes I would gag from eating. Was it worth it? Well it taught me a lot about the kind of effort you need to put in to gaining weight.

I can do this now without the pain. I recently helped a 6'6" guy gain 10 pounds in three weeks. He hasn't been able to gain a pound in FIVE years. He couldn't believe it, he thought it was amazing. And he's training hard so I have no doubt it was mostly muscle.

So what did I have him do? A new amazing protein shake? Creatine? No-explode? Cell-tech????

NO. I had him eat a natural peanut butter and organic jelly sammich between meals. Three a day. I told him don't change anything else about his diet (we fixed it before this to create a base) and simply add in the PBnJ. Skinny guys rely WAY too much on shakes and don't invest enough time in easy high calorie GOOD foods. It's a shame. Second, skinny guys need to learn how to eat more carbs and not focus as much on high protein/low carb. High carb, high protein, medium fat diets work wonders for skinny guys. The problem is, every skinny guy reads a Flex or Muscle and Fiction and Johnnie Bodybuilder tells him that he eats fish and tuna all day and our poor skinny guy doesn't know this guy is on 4 injectables and 5 orals with insulin and GH to boot and he only eats like that for a few weeks out of the year. The rest of the time he's stuffin his face with Macdonalds and KFC.

So let's tell the poor skinny guy what he really needs to do to gain mass and good bodyweight.

EAT CARBS!

Carbs have become the ultimate enemy and this is sad. The right kind of carbs, like oatmeal, can be used to both lose weight and gain weight. Not to mention that carbs pack a lot of dense carbs and you can generally eat a lot of them. Second, it only takes a few calories to digest carbs. For every 100 grams of carbs it's somewhere around 4-7 calories. This is a big surplus of calories. I have skinny guys eat a small amount of protien, then stuffing carbs for a bit, then finishing with protein. This way they get in alot of carbs instead of getting satiated by protein sources and not getting enough calories.

So how would I have the skinny guy eat?

Breakfast -
1 cup of oatmeal (uncooked, this makes 2 cups cooked)
4 whole eggs
1 piece of whole wheat toast with natural peanut butter

snack - PBnJ sammich or protein shake with extra virgin olive oil added

Lunch - Footlong Sub or Pasta with beef sauce, salad with olive oil

snack - same as before

dinner - same as lunch

nighttime snack - cottage cheese with natural peanut butter or fruit

This is what I do for skinny guys and it NEVER fails. I adjust the amount that is used by the mirror, the scale, and how their lifts are moving.

 

[Pete Cash]

Speed sets are another great way to beat a plateau (in fact I would reccommend this even if you're not plateauing on stronglifts) is to alternated every two weeks between doing strong lift like sets and doings explosive sets, for the explosive sets I recommend aiming for around 55 per cent of your 1-rm but do explosive movements. If you're confident enough throwing and catching the bar do that.

This is great because it doesn't deplete you like doing stronglift sets will, yet still works your fast twitch fibres.

How do you incorporate them in Pete?

Well lets look at what I do on my bench

1. Heavy bench day

5*3 bench press. Pretty standard but each 8 week mesocycle I start at 80 percent of my 1rm at the time and try and add 2.5 kilos to 5 kilos a week on.
5*3 some kind of partial bench press. So normally either a floor press or rack lockouts. Rack lockouts are the go to because getting on the floor to bench is a huge pain in the arse.
4*6 DB bench press just to keep the left side really lagging too much.
4*6 close grip bench press
5*3 standing tricep dumbell extension really pushing the weight hard. Normally by this stage my triceps are completely f**ked.

later in the week

speed bench day
8*3 at 40 percent of the original 1rm. The point is to be slow in the down movement and explosive in the up.
The rest of the focus is on some light tricep work and the last 15 reps are ludicrously light rotator cuff. Kept light so the rotator cuff is doing the entirety of the work.

So basically the week is heavy bench, heavy squat/dead, speed bench, speed squat/dead/

 

[Pete Cash]

Pete, I checked out Westlife, looks ok, but I can only get to the gym 3 days per week so probably doesn't work for me. You mentioned going to something that is more for muscle hypertrophy rather than strength training, do you have any suggestions along those lines as I am interested in this?

Without being able to see your squat lets assume your technique is fine. You are either not eating enough food or not getting enough sleep for muscle recovery. That said you seem to want to train to get bigger muscles so you got to look at the rep ranges you are doing. Cliffy posted an excellent thread on this a couple of months back I think but to sum it up and if she wants to jump in and get into more depth about it here is the go.

I just wrote a heap of science on various different types of hypertrophy but its boring and not needed so I will sum it up instead like this

Low volume training
1-5 reps good for strength.

Moderate volume training
6-12 reps tends to hit the sweet spot between the two different types of hypertrophy. Is very good for muscle building

High volume training
15 plus and has its use but would have to get into the science of it to explain it all.

Now lets say I was going to do your programme exactly. I would take the main compound lifts (so the OHP, Bench and Squat) and keep them in the same low volume trying to put weight on every week range. I would do most of the rest of the programme in the moderate volume area and I would pick one lift per muscle to do in the high volume range but only over 1 set. So like 1 set of 15 on the pec dec or something for chest day.

People get really mental about NOT STICKING TO THE PROGRAMME but just play around and see how your body responds over a quick mesocycle of say 8 weeks. That said I think you could drop some of the raises on the shoulder day.

 

[Cliffhanger]

Firstly, thanks everyone for the feedback, some very knowledgeable posters on here.

So I basicaly dropped my squats to 3x5 and managed to squeeze past 105kg (just), to be honest though I don't see too much more progression at 3x5, might get to 115kg at best.

At this stage here is where I'm at with Stronglifts

Squat - 115kg (3x5 now)
Bench Press - 90kg (1 failed run at 5x5, have deloaded to 80kg)
Overhead Press - 60kg (3x5)
Barbell Row (87.5kg (1 failed run at 5x5, have deloaded and back up to 82.5kg)
Deadlift - 150kg (1x5)

I did make some changes to the set up though, only doing each exercise once per week, I do other exercises after my Stronglift exercises and do 4 sets for each.

Here is my current workout schedule

Day 1 (Shoulders/Legs)
Overhead Press
Upright Rows
Arnie Presses
Side Raises
Rear Raises
Lunges
Leg Press
Calf Raises

Day 2 (Back/Biceps)
Barbell Rows
Deadlifts
Pull Ups
Chin Ups
Seated Row/Dumbell Rows
Barbell Curls/Preacher Curls
Incline Dumbells/Concentration Curls

Day 3 (Chest/Triceps)
Squats
Bench Press
Incline Dumbells
Flys/Cable Crossovers
Dips
Triceps Pulldowns/Triceps Extensions
Lying Extensions/Dumbell Extensions

I moved Squats to Day 3 as otherwise it makes my Day 1 workout way too long. I'm open to incorporating some different exercises to keep things interesting.

I think moving to 3x5 will help for the short term, however I am keen to hear about option for mixing things up.

Pete, I checked out Westlife, looks ok, but I can only get to the gym 3 days per week so probably doesn't work for me. You mentioned going to something that is more for muscle hypertrophy rather than strength training, do you have any suggestions along those lines as I am interested in this?

Cliffy, thanks for clearing up the 3x5 deloading. Sounds like you are travelling well, good stuff. Your speed sets approach intrigues me, would I essentially do exactly the same exercises I do now just with 55% 1-RM and do them quickly?

Haven't heard of rack pulls before, might incorporate them

Do 15-20 reps instead of five per set.

I think it's important that you find what works for you. Everybody will require different rest and recovery periods in order to optimise hormone production to promote muscle growth. When exposed to a stresser our body tries to prepare itself to better cope with it in the future, we will only be able to build this strength with enough rest and this is going to be different for everyone. Some people like to give each muscle group 48 hours to recover, others give it even more time, some people think 48 hours is too much. Everyone's body is different and you have to pay attention to the results you are getting.

Figuring out when to change your routine is vital, there are guys who change their routine every three weeks. Generally you don't want to mess with something that's working but your body won't keep responding to the same stimulus. Building muscle is all about stressing the body you have to keep that in mind.

Progress will always slow down. The reason we see the biggest gains in our first six to 10 weeks has little if anything to do with muscle growth. It takes at least six weeks to actually build muscle, in the first six weeks your body is just opening up the neural pathways to perform the exercise in the most efficient way, there's always a mastery element. Just always be weary of that when you're trying to judge whether your progress is stalling.

I would get rid of of the tricep extensions and add in some pushup variations, divebombers, chinese pushups, and close grip leg elevated pushups maybe.

 

[Cliffhanger]

Also you need to add in some core stuff, the following orkouts are some of the best, hanging leg raisers, hanging iron cross, bicycle crunch (easy and effective), V Snaps, core rows (these do your back as well), plank, hyper extensions.

 

[abpanther]

Well lets look at what I do on my bench

1. Heavy bench day

5*3 bench press. Pretty standard but each 8 week mesocycle I start at 80 percent of my 1rm at the time and try and add 2.5 kilos to 5 kilos a week on.
5*3 some kind of partial bench press. So normally either a floor press or rack lockouts. Rack lockouts are the go to because getting on the floor to bench is a huge pain in the arse.
4*6 DB bench press just to keep the left side really lagging too much.
4*6 close grip bench press
5*3 standing tricep dumbell extension really pushing the weight hard. Normally by this stage my triceps are completely f**ked.

later in the week

speed bench day
8*3 at 40 percent of the original 1rm. The point is to be slow in the down movement and explosive in the up.
The rest of the focus is on some light tricep work and the last 15 reps are ludicrously light rotator cuff. Kept light so the rotator cuff is doing the entirety of the work.

So basically the week is heavy bench, heavy squat/dead, speed bench, speed squat/dead/

With those figures you stated, is the first number the sets and the second the reps?

Yeah that looks like a good set up by like I said I can only do 4 days a week.

Was thinking maybe I can do this with my current program and just alernate every week, one week heavy and one week speed. Would that work?

 

[abpanther]

Without being able to see your squat lets assume your technique is fine. You are either not eating enough food or not getting enough sleep for muscle recovery. That said you seem to want to train to get bigger muscles so you got to look at the rep ranges you are doing. Cliffy posted an excellent thread on this a couple of months back I think but to sum it up and if she wants to jump in and get into more depth about it here is the go.

I just wrote a heap of science on various different types of hypertrophy but its boring and not needed so I will sum it up instead like this

Low volume training
1-5 reps good for strength.

Moderate volume training
6-12 reps tends to hit the sweet spot between the two different types of hypertrophy. Is very good for muscle building

High volume training
15 plus and has its use but would have to get into the science of it to explain it all.

Now lets say I was going to do your programme exactly. I would take the main compound lifts (so the OHP, Bench and Squat) and keep them in the same low volume trying to put weight on every week range. I would do most of the rest of the programme in the moderate volume area and I would pick one lift per muscle to do in the high volume range but only over 1 set. So like 1 set of 15 on the pec dec or something for chest day.

People get really mental about NOT STICKING TO THE PROGRAMME but just play around and see how your body responds over a quick mesocycle of say 8 weeks. That said I think you could drop some of the raises on the shoulder day.

Thanks for the feedback man. So are you suggesting that if I don't continue to add weight to my squats then it's an issue with food/recovery? Doesn't everyone get to stage with squats where they can't progress weight any further?

Regarding your suggestions for rep range, that's pretty much what I am doing now. The stronglifts compound exercises (e.g. squats, deadlifts, bench, etc) I'm only doing 5 reps and heavy. Everything else I'm doing 4 sets generally aiming at reps of 12,10, 8 and 6. I do like your idea of throwing in some higher rep stuff just to change things up.

I agree with your last point, I think everyone needs to adapt a program that suits them best provided it's within the best practice principles.

With a mesocycle, can you suggest something along the lines of what I am doing but for a 3 day a week program?

Also, do you guys generally do deltoid raises?

 

[abpanther]

Do 15-20 reps instead of five per set.

I think it's important that you find what works for you. Everybody will require different rest and recovery periods in order to optimise hormone production to promote muscle growth. When exposed to a stresser our body tries to prepare itself to better cope with it in the future, we will only be able to build this strength with enough rest and this is going to be different for everyone. Some people like to give each muscle group 48 hours to recover, others give it even more time, some people think 48 hours is too much. Everyone's body is different and you have to pay attention to the results you are getting.

Figuring out when to change your routine is vital, there are guys who change their routine every three weeks. Generally you don't want to mess with something that's working but your body won't keep responding to the same stimulus. Building muscle is all about stressing the body you have to keep that in mind.

Progress will always slow down. The reason we see the biggest gains in our first six to 10 weeks has little if anything to do with muscle growth. It takes at least six weeks to actually build muscle, in the first six weeks your body is just opening up the neural pathways to perform the exercise in the most efficient way, there's always a mastery element. Just always be weary of that when you're trying to judge whether your progress is stalling.

I would get rid of of the tricep extensions and add in some pushup variations, divebombers, chinese pushups, and close grip leg elevated pushups maybe.

Are you suggesting I do 15-20 reps for every exericise including the stronglifts compound exercises? I would think they have to stay at 5 reps as per the program and for me to progress through 5x5 to 3x5 to 1x5. Regarding the other exercises yes that could be an option, at this stage I do 4 sets of 12,10,8,6. Please elaborate.

Thanks for the general info and it all makes sense, I do get the feeling that I'm ready for a bit of a change just to shock the system.

I like those exercise suggestions event hough I don't know what some of them are, I would prefer to incorporate more compound sort of stuff rather than the isolated arm exercises (although I do like the lying extensions particularly for triceps)

 

[abpanther]

Also you need to add in some core stuff, the following orkouts are some of the best, hanging leg raisers, hanging iron cross, bicycle crunch (easy and effective), V Snaps, core rows (these do your back as well), plank, hyper extensions.

Yes you are right, I have neglected the core stuff. I tried doing those V raises and I stuggled to do 15, must be an indication that my core/abs isn't very strong.

Even bicycle crunches I struggle to get through 2 or 3 sets of 30.

With these exercises generally how many sets and rep range should I be looking at?

 

[abpanther]

Cliffy is there a difference between Divebombers and Chinese push ups?

Divebombers - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttk8RdiIHzA
Chinese push ups - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-V1sU3tOpQ

I like the idea of including these instead of tricep extensions as they probably work my triceps just as hard but also work out so much more including my core