Gold Coast or Ipswich?

[Titanic]

Let's just jam three teams into Brisbane and follow the example of Sydney ... not for me but I do agree about having two twelve team divisions.

 

[The Great Dane]

Though I agree that promotion and regulation is an appealing format for any competition, the unfortunate reality is that Australia and by extension NZ simply doesn't have a large enough population to support promotion and regulation, we simply don't have enough people to be able to support enough clubs of a high enough standard to make promotion and regulation worth while.
Our populations are also heavily centered around a few small geographical centers which would also create problems in the spread of teams.

Even if we did have a population large enough to support promotion and regulation, RL still couldn't support promotion and regulation in Australia and NZ as the geographical footprint of the sport and it's popularity simply isn't spread far enough or evenly enough across the countries to be sustainable, and the quality of players and teams isn't spread equality either.
Using the teams that are currently in the competition all it would take is for the Broncos, Storm or Warriors to be regulated and a team from Sydney or a smaller market to take their place and you could cut a quarter off the value of our TV rights and the promotion and regulation format would then instantly become to expensive to maintain.

As an aside, any talk of having anymore then 3 NRL clubs in South East Queensland in the near future is insanity!
For the time being more then three teams would just be creating another over saturated market that we'd have to deal with.

 

[alien]

As an aside, any talk of having anymore then 3 NRL clubs in South East Queensland in the near future is insanity!

even if it was 2 brisbane teams, 1 gold coast team, 1 sunshine coast team???

 

[gyallop]

Sunshine Coast is an elephants grave yard.

 

[oikee]

Though I agree that promotion and regulation is an appealing format for any competition, the unfortunate reality is that Australia and by extension NZ simply doesn't have a large enough population to support promotion and regulation, we simply don't have enough people to be able to support enough clubs of a high enough standard to make promotion and regulation worth while.
Our populations are also heavily centered around a few small geographical centers which would also create problems in the spread of teams.

Even if we did have a population large enough to support promotion and regulation, RL still couldn't support promotion and regulation in Australia and NZ as the geographical footprint of the sport and it's popularity simply isn't spread far enough or evenly enough across the countries to be sustainable, and the quality of players and teams isn't spread equality either.
Using the teams that are currently in the competition all it would take is for the Broncos, Storm or Warriors to be regulated and a team from Sydney or a smaller market to take their place and you could cut a quarter off the value of our TV rights and the promotion and regulation format would then instantly become to expensive to maintain.

As an aside, any talk of having anymore then 3 NRL clubs in South East Queensland in the near future is insanity!
For the time being more then three teams would just be creating another over saturated market that we'd have to deal with.

The idea of promotion and relegation is to keep the excitement levels up, and keep all areas interested.
I dont understand your thinking. You dull down excitement,.
It works in England for a smaller comp, why wouldn't it work in Australia and NZ.
You could keep the second division teams local until they need to travel. The better teams are the ones who move up and get a shot at being admitted.
As for losing teams like Melbourne or Perth, by having more feeder teams you have better chance of having at least one team in the top flight.

Look, thinking negative all the tuime is why our code is not bigger. You talk about Brisbane or Queensland becoming saturated, mate look around. I just explained that the NRL is faking losing money because Brisbane only has one faking game a fortnight played at Suncorp.
Even if you wanted to follow the NRL in faking Brisbane, you might not see a game for 3 weeks some times.
That is dumb, that is the dumbest thing i think i have ever seen.
If you turn up for a stopover in Brisbne, there is a good chance you cant go to a live game of NRL that weekend.
Now tell me, is that dumb or what.
And your trying to tell me that Queens,land is saturated.
Here is my other leg, pull it, it plays tinklebells.

 

[oikee]

I have explained it many times. If you think i just write these things for something to do, your way off track.
I write them because i can see the massive faking hole the NRL has in Brisbane.
Suncorp is sitting faking idle during the NRL season,. tourists and weekend stopover travellers dont even get a chance to see a game in Brisbane if the Broncos are not in town that weekend.
It's faking russian roulette trying to find a game of NRL at Suncorp during the footy season, and you have buckleys and none of seeing a game after Friday night. ??
That is madness, it is like our code is braindead, been run by the muppets with a touch of wiggles thrown in, no code could be that dumb, hold on, the NRL is.

I also explained how derbies in Brisbane can nearly double the code in Queensland. Two teams (brisbane) will help but if you added 2 extra teams for Brisbane so they have 3 teams, you create a extra 15 faking big derbies for Queensland.

I worked it out and added it to these blogs a year ago,. As most things, it went through to the keeper.

A few of the ideas i have had are being talked about by the NRL honcho's so that is encouraging.

 

[Perth Red]

It doesn't work in England. Hasn't worked since 1999 when the gulf between the two divisions became massive. For a few years SL clubs had some stability and were able to invest in infrastructure and jnrs, now back to panic buying poor quality imports to avoid threat of relegation.

 

[oikee]

Let me make this very very clear. Ipswich want s faking NRL team. They desperately want one.
They love nothing better than trying to have bragging rights over Brisbane city.

Logan area is our faking heartland, and the AFL is already taking funds from this area through pokie machines, so our heartland family are feeding faking AFL coffers.
What part of that do you not understand.

This is just facts and common sense for making Brisbane a stronger much much bigger heartland.

For the life of me, why,,,,why wouldn't you want to make that happen. The rest of the rugby league world can feed off that, like they feed off Queenslanders passion for Origin.

 

[oikee]

It doesn't work in England. Hasn't worked since 1999 when the gulf between the two divisions became massive. For a few years SL clubs had some stability and were able to invest in infrastructure and jnrs, now back to panic buying poor quality imports to avoid threat of relegation.

This is the new trial idea, it was developed by soccer for scotland, and they were too scared to try it, super league is now in a make or break situation,

I think it will work, better still, i know it will work,.
I have studied it, looked at it, dissected it and it looks foolproof.
As i said, i will keep a eye on it and see how it goes after this trial year. Already they have had record crowds.

Every new idea needs tinkering. Yes they need to be careful not to overspend at second division level. Maybe put a cap on that. Salary cap.

 

[oikee]

Sunshine Coast is an elephants grave yard.

Hehe, and yet,,,and yet i see the sunshine coast as a new development area for our code, and funds should be sunk in now to help the local comp and Sunshine coast Falcons grow.

This is the vision our code needs. We have a feeder team in this area, that was on life support not long ago. If we dont help it out now, you are looking at the next gold coast.

Marketing, development and vision.
We seen what went wrong for the Titans, why repeat that mess. The sunshine coast is a ripe market for rugby league to develop, properly, not half hearted and then whinge in 10 years time because we lost another one.

I think the coast population is now around 400 thousand, and growing fast.

 

[oikee]

AFL: Brisbane mentor Justin Leppitsch said he would be the first man to put his hand up to coach a Sunshine Coast-based AFL team, as the sport's Queensland chief executive laid out plans yesterday to expand in the region.

AFL Queensland chief executive Michael Conlan is getting behind a move to relocate an AFL team to the Coast in the next 15 years to take advantage of the expected population boom.

He met with Sunshine Coast Mayor Mark Jamieson yesterday to discuss the possibility and map out a plan to make it happen.

Mr Conlan said: "It's very important we work with the local councils to get their development and facility plans - know what commercial plans they're working on to entice corporations to relocate here and grow their businesses - so then we start our planning on where do we set up another AFL club long-term."

He said Melbourne's population would not be able to support 10 AFL teams, and the Sunshine Coast could become a viable relocation destination.

"We already have bit of vision of whether Townsville could be a possible relocation for an AFL club, but if you look at that population by 2030 Townsville's going to be around about 250,000," he said.

"By 2030 we saw some vision that the Sunshine Coast could have a population of 500,000.

"That puts it into a population the size of Tasmania, which supports six home (AFL) games."

The AFL has had a major presence on the Coast this summer, with reigning premier Hawthorn, the Brisbane Lions, Greater Western Sydney, Melbourne and the Western Bulldogs all holding training camps in the region.

The Lions are back on the Coast this week, visiting schools as part of an Australia Post Community Camp.

"We're very committed to growing our game here on the Sunshine Coast," Mr Conlan said.

Part of the growth plan is elevating a Coast team from the QFA North competition to the state-wide QAFL - the code's third tier, below the AFL and the NEAFL.

MR CONLAN said one of the region's current QFA North clubs could step up but the state body would prefer a region-wide representative team.

"The move of having a Sunshine Coast regional team in the state league comp probably would be one we think could be the answer," he said.

Leppitsch's focus is on rebuilding the Lions into a premiership force, but he is excited by the prospect of coaching a Sunshine Coast AFL team.

The former Brisbane defender would be 55 years old in 2030 - six years younger than current Carlton mentor Mick Malthouse and much younger than the code's oldest ever coach, Frank "Checker" Hughes, who was 71 when coach of Melbourne in 1965.

"I'd actually like to coach the team if it's here," Leppitsch said.

"It would be a nice place to live and coach a team at that point. It'd be terrific for the game if we had a team up here. I don't know what's going to happen in 15, 20 years, but I'd love to see it happen."

The Lions are on the Sunshine Coast and Gympie for a few days as part of their annual community camp.

 

[The Great Dane]

The idea of promotion and relegation is to keep the excitement levels up, and keep all areas interested.

I know, I like promotion and regulation and think it's a great idea.

Unfortunately we simply don't have the means to sustain PAR without it destroying the integrity of the competition.

I dont understand your thinking. You dull down excitement,.

What's there to not understand?

I'll place down what I said in my other post more clearly for you.

. Australia and NZ don't have populations large enough to produce enough players to support enough team of a high enough quality to support PAR in the NRL.
This means that there'd be an inherent unevenness in the competition as there wouldn't be enough top quality player to support enough teams to make PAR worth the investment.

. Australia and NZ don't have populations large enough to support enough large fan bases to support enough clubs of a high enough quality to support PAR in the NRL, and those populations aren't spread out enough geographically to support PAR.
In very simplified terms (without taking into account other sports demographics) this means that there aren't enough people in Australia and NZ to support enough clubs to make PAR worth the investment and risk, and of those people that are here the majority live on the East coast of Aus and on the upper part of the North Island in NZ which would cause an imbalances in the spread of clubs in the competition

. The popularity of RL isn't spread evenly enough across Australia and NZ to support PAR.
Basically what I said in the previous point, but pertaining to the popularity of the sport instead of the population it's self.

There're a handful of other smaller issues with PAR in Australia and NZ that I won't get into here.

So taking all of the above into consideration if we were to introduce PAR in the NRL right now the results would be disastrous, we'd have a competition where there was a small group of rich clubs, most likely all of which whom hail from Sydney and Brisbane that would smother out all the other teams, they'd suck up all the talent, sponsorship, coverage, support, etc, etc, then you'd have the rest clubs, none of which would have the means to be able to compete with the rich clubs unless they were bought by a billionaire.

The dream of any team at any level being able to go as high up the pecking order as possible if they are good enough would be corrupted be simple demographics and large amounts of money, and we'd be further away from that dream coming fruition then we were in the first place.

It works in England for a smaller comp, why wouldn't it work in Australia and NZ.

The PAR that they had in RL in England never really worked, and the reintroduction of it in the ESL is a mistake that was brought about by bowing to the will of the masses.

If they don't mange to get at least a couple teams from London into the SL1 within the decade it will cost them hundreds of millions of pounds and likely force them to once again change the structure of the competition back to a franchise based one.

You could keep the second division teams local until they need to travel. The better teams are the ones who move up and get a shot at being admitted.

Those local divisions wouldn't be the second division though would they, it'd be the competition of the better teams that moved up and got a shot at being admitted into the NRL that would be the second division. :lol:

As for losing teams like Melbourne or Perth, by having more feeder teams you have better chance of having at least one team in the top flight.

No not at all, by having more feeder teams you just create more teams that would be pillaged by richer teams for any good players that come though that club, and that pillaging by larger clubs would happen long before they got anywhere near the NRL.

Look, thinking negative all the tuime is why our code is not bigger.

There's thinking negatively and then there's thinking sensibly, I'm doing the later.

Being overly optimistic is just as dangerous, if not more dangerous then being overly conservative.

You talk about Brisbane or Queensland becoming saturated, mate look around. I just explained that the NRL is faking losing money because Brisbane only has one faking game a fortnight played at Suncorp.
Even if you wanted to follow the NRL in faking Brisbane, you might not see a game for 3 weeks some times.
That is dumb, that is the dumbest thing i think i have ever seen.
If you turn up for a stopover in Brisbne, there is a good chance you cant go to a live game of NRL that weekend.
Now tell me, is that dumb or what.
And your trying to tell me that Queens,land is saturated.
Here is my other leg, pull it, it plays tinklebells.

I'm not saying that Queensland or more specifically Brisbane is over saturated, simply that if we were to add more then one more team to South East Queensland, SEQ would either become over saturated or that we'd have wasted an expansion spot on a teams that we don't really need in South East Queensland as two in Brisbane and one on the GC (or representing another population if things really go to sh!T on the GC) is enough to meet our needs for the time being.

That statement doesn't rule out more expansion in to Queensland in the future, it simply says that the 4 clubs that we'll have after the second Brisbane club is introduced will be enough for at least the next couple of decades, and the only way that more clubs should be introduced into Queensland is if it is through the rationalization of Sydney.

 

[The Great Dane]

AFL: Brisbane mentor Justin Leppitsch said he would be the first man to put his hand up to coach a Sunshine Coast-based AFL team, as the sport's Queensland chief executive laid out plans yesterday to expand in the region.

If we play our cards right we should be able to have everything squared in Queensland long before their 2030 pipe dream.

Besides if the Sunshine Coast is really the "heartland' that pretty much all of Queensland is claimed to be, then you shouldn't worry about this idea.

 

[oikee]

If we play our cards right we should be able to have everything squared in Queensland long before their 2030 pipe dream.

Besides if the Sunshine Coast is really the "heartland' that pretty much all of Queensland is claimed to be, then you shouldn't worry about this idea.

That is not the point, the point i was making if you read the aticle, is that the AFL had 5 teams visit the sunshine coast for training.
They do this to make a presence, and they seek council advice and probably business as well.

They have a 50 year outlook, like the chinese who have a 100 year outlook.

You said,
So taking all of the above into consideration if we were to introduce PAR in the NRL right now the results would be disastrous, we'd have a competition where there was a small group of rich clubs, most likely all of which whom hail from Sydney and Brisbane that would smother out all the other teams, they'd suck up all the talent, sponsorship, coverage, support, etc, etc, then you'd have the rest clubs, none of which would have the means to be able to compete with the rich clubs unless they were bought by a billionaire.

That is good, we want billionaires in our code. The AFL have the Whole of Melbourne big business support, along with Eddie and Koshie, they dont miss a trick. Our code does. We seem to miss a lot of opportunities, and our players keep making headlines for the wrong reasons. Souths stuff-up has definitely made our code look like the amateur comp again.

As for the new PAR the superleague are about to use, it was developed by soccer.
It is not the old PAR.
And i mentioned we might need a salary cap if you brought in relegation.
But yes, i do agree with you, maybe now is not the time for this system, we have to expand to Perth NZ and Brisbane.
Lets do that first, and when it all goes pair-shaped and superleague is thriving, then we can look at this system.
We also need the player draft.
That is another major change our code has missed out on,.
Again, it works well in other codes, we are very slow to make progress, we dont seem to want to learn from other codes.
The captains challenge instead of 10 refs should have been trialed.

There are so many new ideas are game ignores.
They all work well in other codes, why dont we at least trial them.

 

[The Great Dane]

That is not the point, the point i was making if you read the aticle, is that the AFL had 5 teams visit the sunshine coast for training.
They do this to make a presence, and they seek council advice and probably business as well.

They have a 50 year outlook, like the chinese who have a 100 year outlook.

You said,
So taking all of the above into consideration if we were to introduce PAR in the NRL right now the results would be disastrous, we'd have a competition where there was a small group of rich clubs, most likely all of which whom hail from Sydney and Brisbane that would smother out all the other teams, they'd suck up all the talent, sponsorship, coverage, support, etc, etc, then you'd have the rest clubs, none of which would have the means to be able to compete with the rich clubs unless they were bought by a billionaire.

That is good, we want billionaires in our code. The AFL have the Whole of Melbourne big business support, along with Eddie and Koshie, they dont miss a trick. Our code does. We seem to miss a lot of opportunities, and our players keep making headlines for the wrong reasons. Souths stuff-up has definitely made our code look like the amateur comp again.

As for the new PAR the superleague are about to use, it was developed by soccer.
It is not the old PAR.
And i mentioned we might need a salary cap if you brought in relegation.
But yes, i do agree with you, maybe now is not the time for this system, we have to expand to Perth NZ and Brisbane.
Lets do that first, and when it all goes pair-shaped and superleague is thriving, then we can look at this system.
We also need the player draft.
That is another major change our code has missed out on,.
Again, it works well in other codes, we are very slow to make progress, we dont seem to want to learn from other codes.
The captains challenge instead of 10 refs should have been trialed.

There are so many new ideas are game ignores.
They all work well in other codes, why dont we at least trial them.

Pretty much everything you suggested in this post is impractical, and all your counter arguments are relatively inconsequential!

For obvious reasons the NRL cannot have a draft until juniors development is taken out of the hands of the clubs.

The fact that the ESL isn't using the same competition format for their new PAR competition as they used for their old one, doesn't in anyway negate the problems that I bought up that they'll likely face.

Billionaires are great, in reason. We must remember that private ownership is a very mixed bag and if the majority stakeholders of all the clubs are only apart of the competition for mainly a profit motive, then what is most profitable to these share holders will become top priority. You could kiss most afternoon games good bye and say hello to more prime time ones, we'd never play games in the bush again, the price of tickets and merchandise would likely skyrocket, relocation and brand decisions would almost certainly end up in the hands of these owners, and a whole host of other cans of worms would be opened.
Don't get me wrong I love the NFL, NHL, MLB and NBA, but under no circumstances do I want the NRL to be ruled be a small group of rich men who's interests in league aren't necessarily what's in the best interest of either the NRL or RL in general.

And really who gives a fly f##k about what the AFL's doing!
We need to stop worrying so much about what they are doing and start worrying a little bit more about what we are going to do!

And honestly I don't care that the AFL has taken a handful of teams to the Sunshine coast and given the locals a whole lot of lip service, they spew the same sh!t about preparing an area for expansion in the next decade or so everywhere they go. They've been doing it here in Canberra for 25-30 years, they've been doing it in Darwin, Cairns, Townsville and Newcastle for at least a decade, they've been doing it on and off in NZ since the mid 90s and they've been doing it in Tasmania for a century!

 

[oikee]

Pretty much everything you suggested in this post is impractical, and all your counter arguments are relatively inconsequential!

For obvious reasons the NRL cannot have a draft until juniors development is taken out of the hands of the clubs.

The fact that the ESL isn't using the same competition format for their new PAR competition as they used for their old one, doesn't in anyway negate the problems that I bought up that they'll likely face.

Billionaires are great, in reason. We must remember that private ownership is a very mixed bag and if the majority stakeholders of all the clubs are only apart of the competition for mainly a profit motive, then what is most profitable to these share holders will become top priority. You could kiss most afternoon games good bye and say hello to more prime time ones, we'd never play games in the bush again, the price of tickets and merchandise would likely skyrocket, relocation and brand decisions would almost certainly end up in the hands of these owners, and a whole host of other cans of worms would be opened.
Don't get me wrong I love the NFL, NHL, MLB and NBA, but under no circumstances do I want the NRL to be ruled be a small group of rich men who's interests in league aren't necessarily what's in the best interest of either the NRL or RL in general.

And really who gives a fly f##k about what the AFL's doing!
We need to stop worrying so much about what they are doing and start worrying a little bit more about what we are going to do!

And honestly I don't care that the AFL has taken a handful of teams to the Sunshine coast and given the locals a whole lot of lip service, they spew the same sh!t about preparing an area for expansion in the next decade or so everywhere they go. They've been doing it here in Canberra for 25-30 years, they've been doing it in Darwin, Cairns, Townsville and Newcastle for at least a decade, they've been doing it on and off in NZ since the mid 90s and they've been doing it in Tasmania for a century!

You living in denial . ?

The draft system is used by other codes and endorsed by Bennett.
I trust him over your reply';s, which mind you, you try to make out everything i say is wrong.

Whatever dude, whatever rocks your boat.

 

[The Great Dane]

You living in denial . ?

The draft system is used by other codes and endorsed by Bennett.
I trust him over your reply';s, which mind you, you try to make out everything i say is wrong.

Whatever dude, whatever rocks your boat.

If the NRL introduced a juniors draft the first thing that would happen would be that every club would pull all their funding from junior development, because they would now definitely not be able to get a return for their investment in developing each player.

So in other words there wouldn't be any players to draft!

Unless the NRL can find a self funding way for juniors to be developed to an NRL standard independent of the clubs then there will be no draft.

Now that's not impossible but it would be expensive and take a long time (at least a few decades) to set in place.

BTW I didn't say or even make out that everything you said was wrong, I said (rather plainly) that the majority of your points were either impractical or inconsequential.

 

[Hello, I'm The Doctor]

If the NRL introduced a juniors draft the first thing that would happen would be that every club would pull all their funding from junior development, because they would now definitely not be able to get a return for their investment in developing each player.

So in other words there wouldn't be any players to draft!

Unless the NRL can find a self funding way for juniors to be developed to an NRL standard independent of the clubs then there will be no draft.

Now that's not impossible but it would be expensive and take a long time (at least a few decades) to set in place.

BTW I didn't say or even make out that everything you said was wrong, I said (rather plainly) that the majority of your points were either impractical or inconsequential.

If a draft was introduced, the NRL would do so with the intention of centralising development (i just dont believe they would be dumb enough to think clubs would maintain the funding).

The funds for this would probably come at least in part from a reduction in club grants; basically removing the middleman.

Centralised development isnt neceserally bad and it definitely has some big benefits, but it would be a massive shift that would need serious planning....

 

[Perth Red]

There will be a draft in years to come to support a broader expansion of the nrl. Majority of nrl clubs do not find Junior rl. The leagues club or some charity arm that gets govt funding does. The NRL will likely bring in a grant payment for sg ball or equivalent and under 20's with a draft coming in at 21 years old or similar. The state bodies will be funding much greater for the bulk of elite jnr rl development. The game will eventually move away from the shame of needing pokie machines to find its grass roots.
Players will still have some choice in it. When you have a second nz team and a perth team plus longer term the likes of adelaide and maybe an overseas team the game will need a draft in same way afl and nfl needs it.

 

[oikee]

If the NRL introduced a juniors draft the first thing that would happen would be that every club would pull all their funding from junior development, because they would now definitely not be able to get a return for their investment in developing each player.

So in other words there wouldn't be any players to draft!

Unless the NRL can find a self funding way for juniors to be developed to an NRL standard independent of the clubs then there will be no draft.

Now that's not impossible but it would be expensive and take a long time (at least a few decades) to set in place.

BTW I didn't say or even make out that everything you said was wrong, I said (rather plainly) that the majority of your points were either impractical or inconsequential.

You wrote it, you think it is true.
Everything i write you have to say the opposite. They even wrote a story in the paper today about negative league supporters, trying to put a damper on everything every event, every contest.
I could say the sky was blue, you would try to tell me it's not, it's green.

Wayne Bennett has already mentioned the junior development would need to be taken over by the NRL if a draft was introduced.
Like many things have to change. You cant just click your fingers and ideas are perfect. You have to work on them to make new ideas work.

I am not saying a draft is easy, but dismissing it is easy.
Dismissing the all-stars game is easy, and the nines, the world club challenge because it is too far to travel, and any other ideas.

It time for negative to take a hike out of our code, it is boring.