Your Perfect NRL

Discussion in 'NRL Expansion' started by BuderusIsaBeast, Jul 10, 2017.

  1. Perth Red

    Perth Red Referee

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    No, I am suggesting that with nine other NRL teams in that city the suggestion that the removal of one team has somehow given a clear run for AFL and that clear run has allowed afl to become very popular whilst RL has diminished significantly is most likely a convenient untruth for those looking to protect their clubs future existence.
    If anyone can show me any referenced stat that shows AFL is significantly more popular on the North Shore of Sydney than RL I am will be more than happy to concede the point.
     
  2. Perth Red

    Perth Red Referee

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    How much money and effort did the VFL/AFL put into expanding into Sydney prior to the bears demise? How many jnr afl teams were there full stop in Sydney in 1979? Reality is with or without the Bears AFL is much more prevalent and popular across Sydney today because they have spent gazzilions and had a strategic plan to pursue that. You have nine teams in Sydney, how is that not enough to combat a foreign sport with two clubs? Would ten teams make a jot of difference? Maybe you need 12 or 15 to combat this foreign invader, that you claim is wasting its money as no one is interested in following it in numerous other threads.

    I don't think the majority of the rusted on 15k adults will jump to a new NRL club, but that is very different from thinking the majority will jump to a foreign sport they have probably always hated, or that they develop zero interest in RL out of spite of having their team relegated. Their kids? now that's a different story and absolutely no reason they still wouldn't love RL and follow one of the other nine local options they have got.

    Again the increase of AFL on the north shore is only relevant if it is much greater than the increase in interest across the rest of Sydney. If it isn't then the Bears being in or out have had zero effect on the AFL popularity. Do the Swans do a break down of their membership population and where they live?
    Like I said give me a fact, any fact and I'll concede the argument.

    Bit different having zero teams in a city compared to no team in one region of a city when you have NINE others across the city! Maybe if someone was suggesting they cull all Sydney teams you might have a more valid comparison to the Perth situation lol. And guess what even with no team Jnr numbers in WA are up, go figure.
     
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  3. Stallion

    Stallion Juniors

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  4. Stallion

    Stallion Juniors

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    Perth Red. Its basically 8.5 as the Dragons play out of Wollongong. And i dont think you have factored that Sydney is Australia's largest city with a geography which is very different from the mostly flat and easy to travel around Melbourne.These factors and the historical significance and familiarity of these top flight NRL clubs should not be underestimated. The longevity is a strengh. I am a fan of the game adding clubs as it creates an exponential growth on interest and junior participation. You dont kill grandad you respect him and grow the family!
     
  5. Perth Red

    Perth Red Referee

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    Problem is the excuses for not doing what you would prefer to see means we don't do anything.
    Not enough players
    Not enough money
    Not enough interest by TV

    We are in a malaise because the game does not feel it can grow any bigger than the current 16 clubs but doesn't feel it right to do anything about the current 16 clubs, has no power over the current 16 clubs to restructure things to address the above and so toddles along in a status quo going nowhere fast. We've spent over $1.5billion in last 5 years and still seemingly have no answers to the three issues above.

    I think the main reason is we have no balls and no strategic goal to be bigger but the above excuses are the ones that get trotted out by the NRL and its clubs.
     
  6. Stallion

    Stallion Juniors

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  7. Stallion

    Stallion Juniors

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    Their are enough players as the superleague fiasco unveiled the immense talent that is out there. I do believe we have poor management and this management are not articulating the positive effects of genuine growth through setting goals for additional clubs for expansion as a priority.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2017
  8. The Great Dane

    The Great Dane Juniors

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    My responses to you are not intended to try and convince you that the ideas you subscribe to are unsupported by evidence, and frankly are poorly thought out, there's little to no hope of that ever happening in a conversation over the internet.
    I respond so that people reading don't think that the ideas you subscribe to are unchallenged.

    There you go again assuming things to fit your agenda, you have no f##king idea whether or not it's true that people "are passionate about their club first ,and then the game." which may or may not be true, we don't know and the research has never been done, you're just assuming that it's true because it's true of you and it suits you!
    Besides it doesn't matter even if it is true because even though it's possible that every person living in Australia may hold an NRL club "pretty close to their chest" (which by the way I do also) their young and unborn kids do not!

    You focus so heavily on one generation of fans, you are so stressed over losing 10k fans now that you ignore the fact that not only is it possible to for example sacrifice 10k fans now in one and replace them with 20k in another somewhere else (given time for the club to develop in the new place), it's also possible to eventually replace that 10k fans in the original place with another 10k fans that support other clubs if the time and investment is put in, the NFL, NBA, etc have successfully done this multiple times in history, my personal favourite example being the Houston Oilers to Tennessee Titans example where a huge amount of Oilers fans basically fell strait into supporting local collage teams as their first teams until the Texans came around.

    An obvious one is promotion and relegation, however my personal favourite is relegation and replacement that's where the original club is relegated to a lower league and replaced with either a new club or a club from a lower tier is promoted to take their spot in the league, it's a strategy that has been used in RL before many of times probably without the NSWRL even realising that is what they were doing.

    Now as it stands this strategy wouldn't work as well as it could in the NRL because of the way that the lower tiers are structured and the exposure that they get, but with some changes and some time we could be ready to implement it to it's full extent in 10-20 years time.
    .
    I'm not sure what you're referencing here.

    Do you know what a straw man fallacy is? If not you should look it up.

    It's not you sharing your views that is annoying me it's you attributing ideas to me that I don't hold (and have actually stated that I don't hold them multiple times in our conversation) and then arguing against those ideas instead of the arguments that I'm actually presenting, like assuming that because I'm for rationalisation that I must be for relocation, mergers, and killing off clubs.

    Guess what there have been times when the Raiders where knocking on heavens door as well (particularly in the 90s), the Save Our Raiders campaign, charity organised by the fans, the whole nine yards.

    That and being that I was a Bears fan back in the day and they hold a spot on my heart to this day, means I think I know a little bit about the threat of losing ones club.

    This is an example of one of those straw men that I was talking about earlier, not once have I suggested that you (or anybody else for that matter) isn't passionate about spreading the game, only that I think you're going about it the wrong way.
    So instead of trying to push this you push back against my ideas on how to better spread the game.
     
  9. taipan

    taipan Coach

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    Not answering my question at all PR.
    The question was when the Bears were playing how many AFL clubs were in existence prior to their demise in their area?
    And how many AWFUL clubs/teams are there now since their demise?

    I repeat one more time I met over the couple of years working in that area people who were Brea's fans, not Manly or opt clubs fans.So I'm referring to them.Just like we can take samples for tV ratings and election preferences ,having the majority of those 11 people leave the me and some go to the Tahs and AWFUL,is a worry.
    Now let's assume none went to any other sport, judging by the crowd numbers at nearest clubs Manly/Leichardt,Roosters,they sure as hell didn't go there.
    The rest of your argument is hypothetical waffle, you probably wouldn't know an ex Bears supporter, if he wore their raggedy jumper.
    I'm not arguing against expansion do[ey,I spelling out the effect off losing s team and the opportunities it offers to your competitors.
    Before the SL war the Swans were almost shot ducks, crowds ordinary.As soon as 95 the year of the SL start through the courts then things started to improve for them and the late 90s they were in a thank you mode.IOW you tamper with club fans ,you end up with egg on face.
     
  10. taipan

    taipan Coach

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    I wouldn't be debating on the internet ,if I thought I would get only yesman responses.I'm offering my viewpoint from my experiences ever since the 70s following the code/club/SL/Interantional /int rl/expansion.
    Of course they're(views) going to be different from others

    You don't hold my ideas, and I have to report I don't share your views.You take offence to just about any contrary view, intimating its all BS,wouldn't have a clue, no facts blah blah blah.

    You see all I stated, I was just as passionate about the game as you.as you cited your love for the game to show exactly where I stand.
    You go on the defensive and state I never suggested your were not passionate.I wouldn't be debating the issue if I were not.

    If people were rusted on supporters of a club that was thrown out or amalgamated), are not(judging looking at falling crowds )around inner Sydney,they sure as hell are not boosting these other clubs' numbers.
    The question has to be asked where are they? Why are TV ratings down? Why are Swans crowds high when they claim in the past they have strong support from the North Shore?

    Has amalgamation of 4 Sydney clubs boosted crowds in Sydney?

    Promotion and relegation LOL in a country of 25m ,where half the population follows another code.You lost it there.We are not the EPL in a country of 65m.

    You've mentioned your Bear's fan allegiance in the past.I am fully aware of it, you certainly let us know.
    Doesn't make your point any less valid than mine.

    The comparison between Raiders difficult financial times is chalk and cheese.In the case of the Sharks it's been on and off for 50 years.Under Arthurson the threat to relocate the Sharks was apparently on the agenda according to Shark's officialdom.And if they hadn't joined SL they were financially stuffed.And even Smith after the ASADA debacle.


    The straw man comment is used often,when running out of ideas or a put down.It's used by politicians often.And throwing around expletives for effect, is just that, effect.

    For anyone to suggest, to unbelievably ignore a major sporting competitor ,is not even worthy of a response.

    I as a courtesy ,understand where you are coming from I just don't hold those views,I just know people who do not now follow other NRL clubs, as a result of losing a club and losing the identity of a club(via amalgamations).
    You create a void in an area, there is someone ready to fill the vacuum.
     
  11. Perth Red

    Perth Red Referee

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    Probably more, but the numbers have little relevance unless it can be proven that there is a direct correlation between the Bears relegation and the growth in numbers. The only way you could prove or disprove it is to look at subsequent growth of AFL across the whole of Sydney in the same time period and then compare it to the growth in the north shore to see if having an NRL club removed made any significant difference to the AFL gaining more prevalence in a region without an NRL team than one with one. You would then have to add in the other potential variable of where the AFL has spent its money in Sydney and if they have specifically targeted some regions more than others.
    Without these figures your hypothesis is unmeasurable.

    And I come back to your assertions elsewhere that despite the money spent AFL has made little inroads in Sydney. So which is it? AFL has grown significantly due to Bears relegation OR despite the many many millions spent AFL is of minor interest to the people of Sydney. You cant have your cake and eat it!
     
  12. Perth Red

    Perth Red Referee

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    You could argue without it they would be in even a bigger mess with their fanbase and sponsors divided by 2. Due you think Balmain and Wests would both be sustainable clubs now as stand alone entities? Or Steelers and dragons? Even as merged clubs they are struggling so can you imagine if they had smaller fanbases and less sponsors!

    The fact fanbases are at best are stagnant in a lot of Sydney clubs is a big worry, maybe their just isn't enough interested people in Sydney for that many clubs? Or maybe the clubs and NRl are terrible at engaging new fans? Or maybe the answer is to move some licenses to cities with the potential to grow fanbases? Who knows but its clear at moment stagnation is the name of the game.
     
  13. Perth Red

    Perth Red Referee

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  14. titoelcolombiano

    titoelcolombiano Juniors

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    QLD
    North Queensland (playing at new Townsville Stadium)
    Brisbane Broncos (Suncorp)
    Brisbane 2 (genuine city rival out of Suncorp)
    Gold Coast (Robina)

    Sydney
    Manly (Brookevale)
    Penrith Panthers (Penrith Stadium)
    Paramatta Eels (new Paramatta Stadium)
    Wests Tigers (new ANZ stadium)
    Bulldogs (new ANZ stadium)
    Souths (new ANZ stadium)
    Cronulla (Cronulla)

    Regional NSW / ACT
    Central Coast Roosters (Gosford Stadium)
    Newcastle (Hunter Stadium)
    St George Illawarra (Woolloongong Stadium, 1 match a year at Kogarah (v Sharks), 1 a year at the SCG (v Souths), 1 match a year at SFS (v Roosters on Anzac Day)
    Canberra Raiders (Canberra Stadium)

    NZ
    Auckland Warriors (Mt Smart)
    NZ 2 (Wellington or Christchurch)

    Rest of Australia
    Melbourne Storm (AAMI)
    WA Pirates (NIB)
    Adelaide Rams (Hindmarsh)
     
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  15. Perth Red

    Perth Red Referee

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    Far too sensible!
     
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  16. The Great Dane

    The Great Dane Juniors

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    It's got nothing to do with yes men or offence, it's the fact that you're not responding to my arguments, instead you are responding to arguments that you think I must hold because I hold other ideas that you consider connected.

    It's like when far right religious creationists assume that because people believe in evolution that they must be Atheist or vise versa, these two ideas are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

    I'm not sure what you mean by this?

    If you're saying that I in some way suggested to you were less passionate about the game then me, then that wasn't my intention.

    Since you don't seem to have a clue what it means I've got the definition for you from Google.

    Straw man
    noun
    1. 1.
      an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument.
      "her familiar procedure of creating a straw man by exaggerating their approach"
    I have never presented mergers or killing off clubs as tenable rationalisation strategies, I have stated multiple times in the discussion that I do not support mergers, relocation, or folding as a rationalisation strategy.
    I have explained multiple times why I think the Bears removal hasn't yet converted into more fans for other clubs such as the Eagles and Roosters, the Swans may have pretty good crowds (pretty easy to do when you share the city with only one other club in your chosen sport, you've been around in the city for about 30 years longer then that other club, and your chosen sport has a tradition of attending games over watching games on TV) but their TV numbers in Sydney are frankly abysmal and if you added the average attendance of every Sydney RL club together I'd imagine that RL is still out drawing the Swans and the Giants for that matter.

    So since this has nothing to do with what we've been arguing, and we bloody agree that the way that rationalisation was done in the late 90's was a sh!t show and caused more problems then it fixed, what does any of this have to do with me?

    Nothing at all is the answer, it's just easier to bring this then it is to respond to my points I assume.

    Yet another straw man.

    You said-
    I responded with-
    I wasn't suggesting P&R be used as an expansion method in the NRL today, simply providing it as another option for expansion and rationalisation.

    However I did suggest relegation and replacement as a method that the NRL should be using for expansion and rationalisation,I guess you've got no interested in talking about that though because it's easier for you to point out the problems with P&R being implemented in this country.

    The only reason I keep bring it up is because you keep bring up the North Shore and the Bears, I'm just suggesting to you that I'm pretty familiar with the trials and tribulations of the Bears and the North Shore being as I supported the Bears and that I don't need you spelling it out to me.

    I also don't need anecdote after anecdote about the North Shore either, they're insignificant and useless pieces of information because they can't be verified or studied.

    Firstly, if we hadn't joined SL we would've been financially stuffed too (would've gone tits up either just before 2000 or just after), the difference between us and the Sharks is that instead of pissing the money we got from SL up against a wall we invested it into assets to sustain the club into the future.

    Secondly, the only debacle is that the Sharks got away from ASADA Scott free, frankly you guys were bloody lucky that Dave Smith handled the situation so well, that Sandor Earl was there to be the fall guy, and that WADA considers the NRL small fry because if your players were Olympians or playing in a bigger competition globally then their careers would be over and Shane Flanagan might have even got jail time for failing in his duty of care to them.
    And don't give me the "ASADA never got positive drug tests" spiel, they don't need positive drug tests only to prove that the players had access to the drugs and witnesses to confirm that the players took the drugs and they had both of those things, and many an athlete's career has been ruined on much, much less evidence then what was presented about the Sharks and for much less egregious crimes to boot. Also whether or not the players knew that they were ingesting the drugs doesn't matter either.

    Finally, I'm not playing the victim Olympics with you anymore.

    Firstly I'm not surprised that you hear politicians use the straw man fallacy against their opposition in this country because pretty much every time that politicians in this country respond to one anothers' arguments they straw man them and hope that their constituencies don't look into the policies deeper to find out that they are in fact straw manning them, the sad thing is that it works almost every time.

    Secondly, this paragraph shows that you didn't in fact know what a straw man fallacy was, which is fine, and now you know.

    And here we go again, I'm not ignoring the AFL, I've never suggested that we ignore the AFL (I said literally the exact opposite at one point in our discussion) I simply said that what we do as a sport and a business shouldn't be dictated by what the AFL does (if we allow the AFL to dictate to us we'll always be playing catch up), and that you attribute to them more power over the market (especially a maket like Sydney) then they actually have.

    That's nice, do you remember the bit where I suggest different strategies on how to handle rationalisation so that void can be filled by RL, I do, I also remember how you ignored those ideas, didn't even address them, then proceeded to assert that it's impossible to rationalise a competition without creating wastelands for you're sport, and all this despite the fact that multiple sports leagues have successfully rationalised competition all across the world (the NFL, EPL, NHL, etc, etc, even the NRL (NSWRL at the time) it's self, they've all done it successfully before).
     
  17. Teddyboy

    Teddyboy First Grade

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    My perfect NRL is what ARKO wanted back in 1982.
     
  18. Teddyboy

    Teddyboy First Grade

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    Now thats real passion and quite brutal to the point.
     
  19. siv

    siv Juniors

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    I only have to talk to all my old Bears fans that we used to go to games together. RL is very low on their food chain

    You would be hard pressed to find a ex Bears fan who would CARE to respond to a survey like this
     
  20. BuderusIsaBeast

    BuderusIsaBeast Juniors

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    For what its worth my father was a diehard North Sydney Bears fan. When they got kicked out of the comp in 1999 (the Northern Eagles were Manly with a name chnage) he supported the Newcastle Knights and still follows them today. He still keep track of how the Bears are doing in the NSW Cup but the Knights are well and truly his team now.

    His freinds who supported the Bears also switched to other teams, some Parramatta, some Canterbury. They all follow there new teams with variying degree of intrest. While I can't speak for all Bears fans. My father and his mates supported a new club and none of them switched to AFL.
     

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