Your Perfect NRL

Discussion in 'NRL Expansion' started by BuderusIsaBeast, Jul 10, 2017.

  1. taipan

    taipan Coach

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    The area has a club FFS the Broncos.Lose the Bronoc and see what happens.Sheesh.
    Links do your own research.
    Check the AFL situation in GPS and Assoc schools on the North Shore.Even FitzSimons is worried.
     
  2. taipan

    taipan Coach

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    Name the clubs that after the $13m grant are stuffed? With financials spelt out?
    Who said there wasn't many of the Bear supporters.?They had many lean years, and they probably would have a bigger number of supporters than what Perth can currently rouse up.
    The things that happened for a reason ,was the result of SL

    Do you understand that in 1994 to early 95 the game was going gangbusters with expansion,Tina Turner
    money in the Bank,and even had the AFL worried.the swans then were a basket case.
    What happened after? You fill in the blanks.
     
  3. taipan

    taipan Coach

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    The fact is they(Rabbitohs) did, and it's hypothetical.They are now worth money to any potential buyer.And they have a big membership base and a decent supporter base when they play consistently well.
    You can ask the same question about the Sharks,without their development.
    That's thinking outside the square .Crowe bought the Rabbits,others will buy the Tits and Knights.It's called free enterprise.
    Just like that if Perth got into financial difficulty after a few years.Then what? A few bad years at the bottom of the table, fans gonna come running?
     
  4. Stallion

    Stallion Juniors

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    Mate. Their is no city in the world that has rugby league as its major code! You r factoring in other codes. Rugby league should be thought above such codes and respected not diluted. The Sydney market is very precious. You dabble with historical relevance you sew the seeds of disrespect and apathy. You have this wrong Perth Red. Weakening RL in Sydney is what other codes are thriving on.
     
  5. The Great Dane

    The Great Dane Juniors

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    To suggest that the North of Sydney swapping to AFL (which I think is a gross simplification and exaggeration, but I won't get into that because it'd make this post which is probably already going to be long, ridiculously long) is down simply to the Bears going tits up is to ignore so many other contributing factors that were going on at the same time, such as the Swans being on an up swing at the time, the NRL's complete failure to even have a plan to consolidate the region after the Bears dropped out, the undoubtable fact that many of the supposed Bears fans that jumped onto the Swans probably already had an interest in the Swans and AFL before the Bears dropped and didn't in fact lose an interest in RL it's self so much as they lost their why of directly engaging with that interest through the Bears, the sudden influx of Aussie Rules into Sydney school that started to occur at about the same time, the fact that RL's second tier is poorly treated by the NRL and subsequently everybody else as well, etc.

    In my opinion the main factors that caused North Sydney to become a RL wasteland (which again is an over simplification) after the Bears were dropped where the NRL's failure to put extra resources into the region to consolidate the area, and the NRL's failure to organise for other clubs to directly interact with the community up there, both mistakes that don't have to be repeated in the future.
    It also would have helped if the lower tiers were better structured, were better supported by the NRL, and had better exposure, but that is neither here nor there in this discussion, but is another factor that doesn't have to be true in the future.
    We already know why that is, it's because Bears fans hated the Eagles and Roosters, and the fact that neither of those clubs ever gave them a reason to support them, they never even attempted to interact with them or to convert (for lack of a better term) them.
    The Rabbitohs on the other hand have had reasonable success in converting Bears fans simply by partnering with the Bears to maintain a path through the Bears to the NRL and by interacting with the old bears fans.

    And besides it shouldn't be our target to convert old Bears fans to new clubs, our main target should be to get as many of their kids supporting the NRL as possible.

    This goes back to my previous post, it's just a bunch of assertions and anecdotes without any real way to verify them and not really evidence. Even if we could verify the anecdotes it'd be what? Ten or so peoples stories, that isn't even close to being a reasonable sample size, so it's basically useless information in of it's self.

    This is effectively a way to fear monger people out of the argument, nothing more...

    Firstly just because the Sharks could be "flicked" from the NRL competition doesn't mean that they'd be killed, and if your support for the Sharks is reliant on the Sharks being in the NRL, then frankly in a situation where the Sharks are dropped to a lower tier then they're probably better off without you anyway.

    Secondly even if the Sharks were to be killed out right you wouldn't/shouldn't be who the NRL are targeting in the Cronulla market to maintain support for RL in that region.
    You represent a group of roughly 8-12k people who are Sharks hardcores, who are going to lose all interest in RL if the Sharks die, you'd be unconvertible, your support is for the Sharks not for the sport of RL, so even trying to maintain your interest would be a waste of time and resources for the NRL in that situation.
    Being a fan of the club and not the sport is fine, but the NRL and by extension the sport it's self shouldn't cease all progress and growth of the sport for fear of losing you and people like you.

    I honestly couldn't give less of a f##k what the AFL has to say (I assume you meant the AFL and not the SAFL? Whom by the way I give even less of a f##k about, if that's even possible), and no matter what the say they will eventually have to remove more clubs from Melbourne (whether that's through relocations or whatever, I could care less) or accept the ceiling that having to support an over saturated market will force on them.

    If they want to accept that ceiling then that's great for them (though I doubt many of their bigger clubs will be happy with that decision), and great for RL BTW, but I will never except that ceiling for RL, even if it means sacrificing the Raiders (which it may do in the future, probably after I'm dead and gone though), because I want to see RL grow as big as possible, exceed every bodies expectations, and most importantly be introduce to as many people as possible and be enjoyed by as many of them as possible. In other words I want to share my love of the sport with as many people as possible, not handicap it so I can keep it all to myself.

    Who said anything about axing or merging anybody? I certainly didn't, nice attempt at a straw man though.

    If you want to know how I'd actually handle rationalisation you're free to ask, however this post is already to long for me to go into detail about that now.
     
  6. The Great Dane

    The Great Dane Juniors

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    Well that went slightly 'RL is the Aryan sport' didn't it, lol.
     
  7. The Great Dane

    The Great Dane Juniors

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  8. The Great Dane

    The Great Dane Juniors

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    Triple, something went pretty wrong there.
     
  9. Stallion

    Stallion Juniors

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  10. Perth Red

    Perth Red Referee

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    The facts do not back up this assertion that north Sydney has become a rl wasteland since the bears demise and everyone has jumped ship to afl with its two clubs representing the whole of Sydney.
    In pre afl 1979 there were 57 Jnr teams, in 2016 there are 52teams. Hardly a mass exodus!!
    Can anyone give me a single referenced fact that shows that the area has been taken over by afl and no longer is interested in rl because all I can find is facts to the contrary.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2017
  11. Stallion

    Stallion Juniors

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    Anectodal evidence. Every school that i teach at has a kid playing AFL which didnt happen 3 or 4 decades ago.
     
  12. Stallion

    Stallion Juniors

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    Great Dane. With RL getting kicked in the guts a bit of confidence about the code itself is ok given the circumstance we are witnessing. LOL. But yes i see your sense of humour.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2017
  13. taipan

    taipan Coach

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    These are the reasons plain and simple.
    Simply whether the Sharks are killed off/relocated/merged,the club being around for 50 years would lose its local identity and tradition.Thus the people from the area and I have no doubts those of their fans spread around Oz and overseas would either have no ties with them or really care that much any more.That is human nature.

    I represent a group of hardcore fans like any NRL club,but just like any NRL club there are regular fans, and irregular casuals in addition, the latter of which many no doubt live locally and attend when timing suits or when they want to go to a specific game.They are all paying customers and merchandise buyers.

    As to the AFL( who whether you pretend or not )are our main competitor, you ignore their intentions or their acts9like any business), it can come back to bite you.That mob acknowledges the fact ,moving teams creates many problems, the Lions and Swans were in financial sh*tter's ditch ATT and had no choice.
    Their current clubs will be funded accordingly so it doesn't happen again.People live in a cocoon, if they think losing a team is not going to get people to look at other outlets.

    It's vey easy to bravely suggest "if it means sacrificing my team the Raiders" .The Raiders have as much chance of being moved ,as the Broncos or Knights.That would be handing the Riverina and the ACT to whoever wants it.


    No need to spell out your affection for rugby league ,you are no more in love with the game than I.
    I've spent decent sums (for me)of money over the years to assist the club when they were in trouble,sendng money to places like Germany,England and Development money that ended up in Denmark.
    I'm just as anxious for the code to become national here, and have a strong RLWC,which I have attended here in 2008,attended a Wembley Challenge Cup final in 84,and a Kangaroo tour in 2003.
    Don't lecture me on love for the game.


    If any code is going to expand in this country ,they have choices.
    They retain 16 teams, meaning a current club has to relocate ,or 2 merge, or one is axed.
    Alternatively they increase the number of teams to 18,have a Brisbane 2 and Perth as the newbies, and retain the current base.Whiteanting further your major population base, is not going to build up that base nor its grassroots,

    Your last para, not interested in how you'd handle anything ,because like me ,you have zero control as to what the ARLC does.It's in their hands .
     
  14. taipan

    taipan Coach

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    But but the population has grown I'mmensely on the Nth Shore since 79 ,so a reduction according to your constant formula is terrible.
    And pray tell what are the actual facts pertains to people who followed the Bears and do not now.Explain why AFL is in the major Nth Shore private schools now and the NRL is still not.
    Then when you've done that ,ask yourself how many AFL teams/VFL whatever ,were around when the Bears were in existence in that area.
    Ever thought of the fact if the Bears had still been going strong, there may be 80/100 teams ? in the Nth shore rather
    than 52.And also check which areas included that were not before.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2017
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  15. T-Boon

    T-Boon Bench

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    The other option is partial relocation where to be fair to each team every Sydney team takes a stack of games to a second home in an expansion area such as the Roosters seem to be considering. Leaving way less NRL games in Sydney but the same amount of teams.

    Eg:

    The Sharks (Adelaide & Cronulla)
    Western Panthers (Perth, Penrith)
    Sea Eagles (Sunshine Coast & Manly)
    Canterbury Bulldogs (Cant NZ & Parra Stadium)

    And so on.
     
  16. The Great Dane

    The Great Dane Juniors

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    This paragraph relies on the club being killed off, relocated, or merged, if any of those things were to happen I wouldn't be surprised if the outcome was a bunch of people just giving up on the sport overnight.

    However I don't support mergers, or clubs being killed off, and I don't support relocation in 99% of cases (there're circumstances where relocation can work, but they aren't a good answer to the NRL's rationalisation problem), I support relegation and replacement, which if done in unison with a good plan to consolidate the region after the relegation of the club could help to mitigate a lot of the complications associated with rationalisation, it's also a strategy that has been proven to work with reasonable success in multiple competitions around the world.

    Umm that's nice, and your point is?

    If you are saying that those regular fans and casuals are dead to RL if the Sharks are removed from the NRL then I think that you both overestimate the tribal nature of RL and underestimate the tribal nature of humans all at once.
    I have no doubt that if the Sharks were to go tits up (which again I wouldn't support anyway) that many of those fans would lose interest in the NRL, however I'm sure they'd still be interested in SOO and probably the Kangaroos (if the NRL and broadcasters could ever find the time to promote the Kangaroos with any consistency), if they're still interested in SOO and the Roos then that means that they are still interested in RL, and that means that there's still a chance that we can convert them (and more importantly their kids) to either supporting another NRL club or RL in other ways.

    Just because we may lose them from the NRL doesn't mean we've lost them from the sport as a whole, as long as we haven't lost them from the sport as a whole there's still a chance to get them back into the NRL in other ways.

    I never suggested that the AFL weren't our main competitor (though with the advent of the internet and streaming it is quickly becoming more and more the case that competitions like the NBA, NFL, etc, are our main competition), only that I don't care in the slightest what they are or are not doing unless it is a direct attempt to effect the NRL (or to a lesser extent other codes) in a clandestine manner, which by the way is exactly what is happening in the ACT with the help of a corrupt politician.

    The NRL and the RL medias' hyper focus on the AFL and what it's doing isn't healthy, we shouldn't be worrying about the AFL (except on the occasions that they try to do something more direct like try to have public money funneled their way, and other such things) we should be worried about us and what we're doing.

    If we were as hyper focused on what we can do to make our game great as we are on what the AFL does to make their game great then we'd be borderline unstoppable.

    Firstly I can see scenarios where the Raiders are dropped from the NRL as a result of globalisation and growth, though that would be in the very distant future, and truthfully almost certainly long after I'm dead.

    Secondly the NRL is already handing the ACT over to the AFL on a silver platter through their inattentiveness to the community and it's concerns (in particular around junior development), the way they treat the Raiders, their refusal to help the Raider negotiate with the ACT government, and their utter refusal to assist the Raiders to fight back against a handful of politicians (headed by the Chief bloody Minister I might add) that are openly opposed to the sport and aren't afraid to throw it under bus to prop up their love of another sport to an extent which isn't shared by their constituencies.

    My intention was not to spell out my affection or to suggest that your affection is any greater or lesser then mine, it was to explain that I think there's a raw potential in both RL and the AFL to become things much bigger then they are at the moment, but that will never happen so long as they continue to handicap themselves by trying to drag along an over saturated market at the expense of growth into new markets for traditions sake, and that I simply cannot accept for something that I love out of principle.

    That's a false dichotomy, they're not the only options for expansion, or rationalisation for that matter, they're just the easiest to show that they don't work, hence why you keep bringing them up in an attempt to support your ideas without having to engage other peoples arguments.

    Don't care if you want to hear how I'd handle rationalisation or not, that wasn't the point, the point was to suggest that you stop attributing ideas and strategies to me that I don't hold and have stated multiple times in our conversation that I don't hold, and that if you really want to know what my ideas and strategies for the situation are you should ask me instead of assuming/forcing ideas and strategies on me for you to argue against.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2017
  17. taipan

    taipan Coach

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    Mate you can write short story after short story.It ain't going to either change the landscape or alter my views from following the code for decades from ,unlimited tackle,4 tackle and 6 tackle eras.
    From the Arthurson ARL expansion,to SL,to the current mess.

    People from my experience( in the main )are passionate about their club first ,and then the game.I'm passionate about the game and yes there are no doubt many others, but hold the club pretty close to my chest ,because of the many near death experiences.You don't understand that ,that's fine.

    Tell me sir what are the other options for expansion ,other than a new club with out replacing others,axing or amalgamations or relocation.I would be really interested in seeing another suggestion
    .
    If it wasn't the point ,why the hell even bring it up.

    You're the one who responded to my original post ,expect responses in return, if they don't suit your agenda,tough t*tty.

    Forcing strategies LOL.If giving my view is forcing strategies on anyone, then they must be precious ones.

    All I'm doing is stating my position and feelings, and from my experience what people would feel about losing a club.The threat to lose a club, has been on and off the drawing board for the Sharks many times,and their fans have held bucket collections,local marches ,put money in to assist.
    And advising you are not the only one on this earth passionate about spreading the game.
     
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  18. Perth Red

    Perth Red Referee

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    I never said lack of growth is good, but the very little reduction would suggest that it is a myth that suddenly AFL became super popular and people are flocking to it.

    There is no data so neither you nor I can say how many ex Bears fans now are members or attend GWS or Swans games.

    RL has never been strong in private schools, that has nothing to do with AFL and everything to do with the old school ruggers brigade. Did these schools run RL teams before and now only run AFl alongside union? I very much doubt it.

    AFL has spent big promoting and growing itself in NSW as you like to point out regularly. Wouldn't you expect to see growth after that investment? The more pertinent question to ask would be "Has the growth in AFL in the North shore been significantly higher than the growth in other parts of Sydney?". Only then could you look at the variables such as NRL or no NRL team impact on that growth.

    The Bears JRL have run RL clinics for 15k schoolkids in 2016, again suggesting there is still plenty of RL activity and interest in this region, even without an NRL team.

    So how many Jnr teams in Cronulla from 1979 to now? Again your hypothetical only has validity if there has been a 100% increase in jnr teams in regions that still have an NRL team. I very much doubt that is the case given the numbers the NRL puts out.
     
  19. Stallion

    Stallion Juniors

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    Perth Red. Are you seriously suggesting that taking away a top flight rugby league club presence does not negatively impact the game in that area? If so. Seek help!
     
  20. taipan

    taipan Coach

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    Look I've attended ru playing private schools In Sydney,two in fact.The Sport's master of one, was a former first grade rl footballer for an inner city club.
    I ask you one more time, how many junior AFL teams were on the North Shore prior to 1979 compared to today or after the Bears removal?

    But.but you keep on saying where doe the NRL money go, yet they have D/os going around these Nthn Schools.A code worth its salt has to continue having a presence,else it will fall further behind.

    Data LOL,Well a couple of years repping on the Nth shore and meeting people who followed either Manly or the Bears,small though in number is a fair representation of what lies outside.Why? The Bear's fans i knew were devastated ,and haven't chosen another club and have rarely attended a rl game.yet attended Tahs matches and a few Swans games.If you believe people will just jump the creek and convert to another club at the click of a finger, you are living in a bubble.

    Rugby league has never been strong in GPS and Assoc schools,because its never been in it for a start.

    If there was no AFL in Private schools on the Nth Shore ,if there were very few grassroots AFL teams on the Nth Shore,and there is now, then according to mathematical geniuses like Luigi the Unbelievable,there has been a decent increase.Ask Peter FitzSimons whose school Knox is one of them.

    Junior numbers were down in the Shire at older levels.The difference is the increase in female players.Despite winning the G/F.
    Soccer has huge numbers here.and Auskick is compulsory at some of the Catholic primary schools amazing.
    And if you believe moving the sharks won't make much of a difference,you really are out of touch with reality.

    Funny you are quite happy to state senior numbers are down in WA,suggesting not having an NRL team doesn't help.So QED not having a NRL team on the NTH Shore also doesn't help.It;s called aspiration.
     

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