Cattle or Coach?

[SBD82]

I think it's a combination.

The lack of development to unlock the potential of our players has been horrible to watch.

JDB and Friz are the best examples. They should both be great forwards by now but they are still not living up to their potential. If either was playing under Bellamy, Bennett or Hasler their highlights reels would be endless.

Other examples are Dugan (passing game) and Rein (vision, passing game)

All four of these guys have been around for a while and they have not improved their deficiencies. So in that sense it's the cattle, but I think the reason behind it is the years of poor development.

I think with proper coaching all four should be walk up starts for the blues.

 

[Get2dachopper!]

I've said it a few times now; You either have a squad capable of winning or going close to winning the comp. Or your building a squad to compete at that level.
At the moment, I don't see the Dragons doing either, and the coach is in charge of this, so I blame the coach. Simple.

 

[TruSaint]

Tru, this is spot on. You look at when Benji or Gareth work sideways looking for support - there is rarely any and even if there is, they have minimal impact because they are all flat in attack and standing still when they get the ball. Why? Because they are not expecting that play. They are expecting the 1 out run or the pass to them along the line to be used as a battering ram.

Its happened too often buddy, as you, to be just so-incidence.

To me its apparent... Play it safe, win the stats ( i.e completions ), grind out a win. Thats fine in principle, but fundamentals like support play, players in motion keeping the defensive side guessing, are all missing.

I supported Mary through last year and up until few weeks ago. Just think he's out of his depth, or not using his resources correctly.

 

[TruSaint]

I think it's a combination.

The lack of development to unlock the potential of our players has been horrible to watch.

JDB and Friz are the best examples. They should both be great forwards by now but they are still not living up to their potential. If either was playing under Bellamy, Bennett or Hasler their highlights reels would be endless.

Other examples are Dugan (passing game) and Rein (vision, passing game)

All four of these guys have been around for a while and they have not improved their deficiencies. So in that sense it's the cattle, but I think the reason behind it is the years of poor development.

I think with proper coaching all four should be walk up starts for the blues.

SBD, mate enclose a youtube vid sent by a mate, its about 9 minutes of Dugan.
From raiders days till now.
Watch him pass, kick and run.

Im not having a go, in fact Im suggesting that unfortunately these features have been taken out of him under the current " plan ".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAzeyVWfofE&feature=youtu.be

 

[Slippery Morris]

As per a previous post, the players look like they are restricted. They are trying their heart out but look like they are just playing safety.

People keep on going on about halves well Titans have a young guy named Ash Taylor, first year in NRL and killing it. Saints probably have the same quality in Nona or HUtch but Mary picks safety. I would gamble with a youngster in the halves if Benji injured and have McCrone and Rein share the hooking duties. McCrone offers better service than Havili. THey need flair and without Benji there is none. Nona I think may be able to offer something.

 

[Rob Dragon]

Whilst we have the spine we currently have we are going no where fast. A tired old 5/8 playing an organising halfback position of which he has rarely ever played. An over-rated No 6. A fullback who cannot pass or set up any other player in the team and a really ordinary hooker. Get the spine set better and watch this team go.

 

[SBD82]

SBD, mate enclose a youtube vid sent by a mate, its about 9 minutes of Dugan.
From raiders days till now.
Watch him pass, kick and run.

Im not having a go, in fact Im suggesting that unfortunately these features have been taken out of him under the current " plan ".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAzeyVWfofE&feature=youtu.be

The Canberra highlights reel is amazing. His tackle breaking and speed was accompanied by vision and some beautiful passing. The dragons parts are mostly individual skill and power plays.

I don't want to hang shit on our players. I just wonder whether Dugan can regain his skill levels after so many years of working in the "plan". He is obviously so very naturally gifted. But to hone those skills and evolve them as he loses pace should be the aim of the coaching staff.

 

[TruSaint]

The Canberra highlights reel is amazing. His tackle breaking and speed was accompanied by vision and some beautiful passing. The dragons parts are mostly individual skill and power plays.

I don't want to hang shit on our players. I just wonder whether Dugan can regain his skill levels after so many years of working in the "plan". He is obviously so very naturally gifted. But to hone those skills and evolve them as he loses pace should be the aim of the coaching staff.

Glad you watched it.

Its a bit like swimming to me, or riding a bike. You dont lose these skills. He is a very gifted athlete, being restricted by a game plan. Just my opinion. I rate him very highly.

Credit to him for maintaining "enough" skill level to rep Aus and NSW.

 

[DRAGONSNZ]

The Canberra highlights reel is amazing. His tackle breaking and speed was accompanied by vision and some beautiful passing. The dragons parts are mostly individual skill and power plays.

I don't want to hang shit on our players. I just wonder whether Dugan can regain his skill levels after so many years of working in the "plan". He is obviously so very naturally gifted. But to hone those skills and evolve them as he loses pace should be the aim of the coaching staff.

That's actually up to Dugan. The coach has 24 other players to coach, They coach the team and individuals should be able to master the craft through hardwork. That's the difference between Thurston and the rest.

 

[BennyV]

I watch all the Dragons games. Must admit every team we have beaten and some we haven't, haven't looked too flash. That doesn't invalidate my point however - I don't think many of our team would be sought after by other clubs.

Other clubs would hold all the power in negotiations, but they'd all be picked up. Look at the likes of Latimore and Prior and how they've jumped up a level at a new club!

Aside from the hooker, I think if a good coach took over our squad right now he would be rubbing his hands together with glee at the potential before him.

A strong, young forward pack with some real strike backrowers. If the coach had cap money to spare he'd be chasing a dummy half and a skilful ballplaying backrower

A decent backline, again mostly young, with some real talent within it. Might recruit some more speed (right dino?)

A five-eighth and fullback who have both played at the highest level and are theoretically in the prime of their careers, together with a seasoned, experienced 7 who may be worth keeping to anchor the spine - at the right price. Otherwise recruit a new half.

Plus a rich junior nursery that will continue to yield fruit - if the right fruit are chosen.

Yep. Rubbing hands together with glee at the heights he'll be taking this squad.

Instead we're stuck in a quicksand of McGregor mediocrity

This is the most telling notion. A new coach would have far more immediate impact on our team than changing a halfback or hooker straight away. We complain about lack up support play, one out hit ups, lack of ideas in opposition 20, lack of block runners, lack of options for the halves and so on...this all comes from coaching!

The cattle is far from perfect, but there are plenty of tools to work with if the coach had any ideas. As grouch said, we've got a fairly strong forward pack with powerful edge runners. We've got halves who have won premierships and a fullback who has proven to be one of the more destructive ball runners in the game. We've got power in the centres. We might need a bit more speed, some more direction in the halves and higher quality at hooker, but given the current restrictions in the game plan and the fact that the coach doesn't seem to be able to make use of the talent we currently have, these wouldn't take us much higher.

A new coach MUST come first if we are going to build the team into winners.

 

[SBD82]

Glad you watched it.

Its a bit like swimming to me, or riding a bike. You dont lose these skills. He is a very gifted athlete, being restricted by a game plan. Just my opinion. I rate him very highly.

Credit to him for maintaining "enough" skill level to rep Aus and NSW.

Credit to him. He is obviously an excellent footballer and IMO deserving of the rep honours.

I think my point is that he hasn't reached his ceiling. He has all the natural attributes that he should be being talked about in the conversations about the potential greatest fullbacks of all time. Thats how highly I rate him. But he isn't there yet.

I'm worried that his game isn't improving. It would be a shame for Dugan to not reach his ceiling, as I think it would be special to watch.

 

[SBD82]

That's actually up to Dugan. The coach has 24 other players to coach, They coach the team and individuals should be able to master the craft through hardwork. That's the difference between Thurston and the rest.

Some of that is up to Dugan, but not all. Some clubs focus more on skills coaching. Some even get specialist halves coaches for this very reason.

I don't think we are one of those clubs.

 

[Willow]

mmm... steak..

It doesn't bode well for our game against the Cowboys.

 

[Coffs dragon]

Our team has 2 major flaws:-
1. No genuine halfback to call the shots and direct the team...two 5/8's don't work together!!
2. We are stuck with a poor coach with inexperienced assistants that lack tactical know how and ability to instigate change.
Fix these 2 problem areas and the road ahead will be a lot smoother. I certainly admire what Neil Henry has done at the Titans with limited resources and an ordinary roster. He does however have 2 very exciting and talented halves in Taylor and Elgey (next year) Watch them fly in 2017 under a SMART COACH that teaches players to improve and utilize their skill. Our current coaching structure seems to restrict player development and skill level.

 

[TruSaint]

Our team has 2 major flaws:-
1. No genuine halfback to call the shots and direct the team...two 5/8's don't work together!!
2. We are stuck with a poor coach with inexperienced assistants that lack tactical know how and ability to instigate change.
Fix these 2 problem areas and the road ahead will be a lot smoother. I certainly admire what Neil Henry has done at the Titans with limited resources and an ordinary roster. He does however have 2 very exciting and talented halves in Taylor and Elgey (next year) Watch them fly in 2017 under a SMART COACH that teaches players to improve and utilize their skill. Our current coaching structure seems to restrict player development and skill level.

Hard to argue...

 

[Uplifting]

I dont doubt that at all.

It seems though that they are restricted by Marys game plan, thus the frustration.

PS welcome to the forum.

Thanks for the welcome TruSaint. I've enjoyed reading most of the discussion for a while it's nice to get a chance to participate.

More on the topic, my guess is that Mary is a great motivator and promotes a competitive spirit in the team. But I agree, needs to improve his teams ability to 'create' in attack. I'd like him to take responsibility on the issue too. Off course we'd all love to see him succeed - but the coach is responsible for the 'cattle'. I'm just waiting for something exciting to happen this year.

 

[TruSaint]

Thanks for the welcome TruSaint. I've enjoyed reading most of the discussion for a while it's nice to get a chance to participate.

More on the topic, my guess is that Mary is a great motivator and promotes a competitive spirit in the team. But I agree, needs to improve his teams ability to 'create' in attack. I'd like him to take responsibility on the issue too. Off course we'd all love to see him succeed - but the coach is responsible for the 'cattle'. I'm just waiting for something exciting to happen this year.

We all are ... well said.
Go the Saints !!!!!

 

[Minh]

To me it looks like the players are trying their hearts out.

They are definately having a dig which to me says that Mary is able to get them mentally prepared however it's the conservative approach with little bodies in motion and support that is the worry with the coach.

 

[Minh]

Thanks for the welcome TruSaint. I've enjoyed reading most of the discussion for a while it's nice to get a chance to participate.

More on the topic, my guess is that Mary is a great motivator and promotes a competitive spirit in the team. But I agree, needs to improve his teams ability to 'create' in attack. I'd like him to take responsibility on the issue too. Off course we'd all love to see him succeed - but the coach is responsible for the 'cattle'. I'm just waiting for something exciting to happen this year.

nicely said, the thing I don't like about Mary is that he is too positive and always puts a positive spin on the results to deflect blame from the players and from himself. He needs to take ownership of the results, whether we lose to a team who relied on kicks for tries or not, this is all part of the game. I hope Mary succeeds and to me there is still another twist before the season ends.
Some things that would not have been ideal for us so far this season in my opinion are we are missing one more big impact front rower in Masoe, the Benji Marshall saga of whether we sign or don't sign is very destabilizing to the team coupled with his injuries have been the biggest issue.
I hope Mary succeeds, but I also would not be unhappy if we appoint a top line coach if Mary falls on his sword. My tip is we will still make the finals and make it easily if we keep our full compliment of players on the field. Welcome to the forum and go Dragons!!!

 

[Mr Red]

A good coach is the icing on the cake in most cases. For example a good coach can often get that extra 10% from a player compared to a lesser coach..Multiply that by 17 players all achieving that extra 10% and you have turned a mid table team into a top 4 team... Aka Bennett and the dragons 09/10...

However a bad coach can have the reverse impact, players achieving 10% less than what they could under more effective coaching .. And this is what I believe we are currently seeing with the dragons under Mary's coaching..for whatever reason Mary does not have the ability to extract the best from the roster..
Sure it's not a premiership contending roster, but it's also a way better roster than 11th on the ladder...