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Do mergers and joint-ventures work?

Do mergers and joint-ventures work?


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Willow

Assistant Moderator
Messages
108,246
It doesn't matter. The team still plays in, and represents the Illawarra region.
Plus plays and represents St George. It has been a partial relocation, might end being a full relocation.

Of course it matters. The arrangement between St George and WIN highlight how Joint Ventures work, and it was never merger.

I mentioned the business reasons in another post. WIN has a vested interest in the Illawarra. Plus there are mutual benefits for the St George and Illawarra Clubs by having close links. Historically that has always been the case.
 

anjado

Juniors
Messages
1,092
The whole rationalization period was a disaster for Rugby League and had a far bigger impact on the game than the Super League season. Reducing the teams from 22 in 1997 down to 14 was a ridiculously dumb idea and the number should have been at least 16.

in 1998 there were 12 Sydney clubs ideally you would want to half this number. There was a very simple and logical way to do this just by going using Geography and looking at the strengths and weaknesses of each club.

Sydney geographically can really be split into 7 areas.

City/Inner City (Easts,Balmain,Souths)
North Shore/Northern Beaches (Manly,Norths)
Southern City/The Shire (Souths,St George,Cronulla)
South Western Sydney (Canterbury,Wests)
North Western Sydney (Empty)
Centralish Sydney (Parramatta/Balmain/Canterbury)
Outer Western Sydney (Penrith)

St George has volunteered to merge with Illawarra which should lead to a relocation of the club to Wollongong for the most part.

North Sydney has volunteered to move to the Central Coast, which would mean another relocation.

Canterbury has announced that they intend to build a stadium and complex in Liverpool which would remove them from the Central Sydney clubs.

City/Inner City (Easts,Balmain,Souths)
North Shore/Northern Beaches (Manly)
Southern City/The Shire (Souths, Cronulla)
South Western Sydney (Canterbury,Wests)
North Western Sydney (Empty)
Centralish Sydney (Parramatta,Balmain)
Outer Western Sydney (Penrith)

This leaves the following mergers viable.

Souths & Easts
Easts & Balmain
Souths & Balmain
Souths & Cronulla
Canterbury & Wests
Parramatta & Balmain

You would need to make 3 teams out of those 6 viable mergers with 1 club left to stand alone.

With Canterbury and Wests being the most logical teams for a merger out of that group join together and base themselves out of Liverpool.

It leaves just two teams with one viable merger partner.

Cronulla and Parramatta. I would argue at the time Parramatta had a lot more upside as a stand-alone entity than Cronulla did. They had the 2nd best Stadium in Sydney, they had a larger junior base, more money and a larger fan base as well as Parramatta basically being a city in all but name they are in a strong position and don't have to merge.

So Parramatta is the stand-alone club. This leaves us with.

Souths & Easts
Easts & Balmain
Souths & Balmain
Souths & Cronulla

Of those 4 clubs, two were major rivals Souths and Easts so ideally they wouldn't have been made to merge.

This leaves the final two mergers as

Easts and Balmain - This merger makes perfect sense the clubs home grounds are only 8.5km apart. Easts bring to the table good administrative skills and a good stadium and recent success. Balmain brings in a decent enough junior base to make the club self-sustained when combined with Easts meagre junior base. Balmain has a loyal following so they could have brought an extra 5-8k a game to games which would have seen average attendance around the 17,000 per game mark, with room to grow. Games which would struggle to sell at the SFS can be moved to Leichhardt Oval.


Souths and Cronulla - This merger is a lot tougher the clubs are roughly 20-25km apart Redfern Oval to Shark Park is about 19km but SFS is further away. both clubs could help each other mainly through fan base they would have a very strong junior catchment area but neither club was ever well run so combined they may have done better it also shores up southern Sydney.

So with these mergers taking place, you would have been looking at 6 full-time Sydney based clubs with Central Coast and St George Illawarra occasionally playing in Sydney part-time.

Every single geographical area in Sydney is covered and all clubs still exist in some form.

This is how they should have done it.

What we got was a stupid criterion which had no thought put into it at all and it was all rushed and made no logical sense.

Wests Tigers existing is a miracle Balmain and Wests are located 48km apart and should never have been made to merge, Norths and Manly both hated each other so it was never going to work.

The reason why the joint ventures have failed is that they made sure Eastern Suburbs couldn't fail the rationalization process and would be a stand-alone club and they just weren't strong enough in any way other than who owned them to be a stand-alone club.

Because we had to keep the Roosters as a stand-alone club everyone else has suffered and the joint-ventures with the exception of St George-Illawarra were doomed to fail.

All the clubs which tried to stand alone Penrith,Souths and Norths and others all fought so hard to stand alone because Easts were going to be a stand-alone club. All of those clubs rightly thought that they had as much or more going for them than Eastern Suburbs did at the time.

So they shouldn't have allowed the clubs to decide they should have just looked at a bloody map and then joined the most vulnerable clubs together who didn't hate each other together.

If we did the rationalization process properly we would have 10 teams from the NSW and ACT with strong junior bases and fan bases so they would be more self-sufficient. It would be easier to upgrade stadiums because only three Sydney teams would need it.

It would also give room for 10 expansion clubs may be more because we wouldn't have to worry so much about Sydney clubs being weak because they would all be fairly strong.
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
65,759
Be fascinating to jump on a parallel universe timeline and see how the original Superleague proposal of the existing eleven Sydney clubs playing in a nsw Cup style Comp with 4 new teams covering Sydney and the eleven clubs being shareholders in these 4 teams. Could we now be seeing 4 super Sydney clubs with 30k gates? Or would it have been a short lasted disaster?

Back in 1994 ARL was entertaining the notion to cut Sydney down to just 5 clubs.
 

Mr Spock!

Referee
Messages
22,502
The whole rationalization period was a disaster for Rugby League and had a far bigger impact on the game than the Super League season. Reducing the teams from 22 in 1997 down to 14 was a ridiculously dumb idea and the number should have been at least 16.

in 1998 there were 12 Sydney clubs ideally you would want to half this number. There was a very simple and logical way to do this just by going using Geography and looking at the strengths and weaknesses of each club.

Sydney geographically can really be split into 7 areas.

City/Inner City (Easts,Balmain,Souths)
North Shore/Northern Beaches (Manly,Norths)
Southern City/The Shire (Souths,St George,Cronulla)
South Western Sydney (Canterbury,Wests)
North Western Sydney (Empty)
Centralish Sydney (Parramatta/Balmain/Canterbury)
Outer Western Sydney (Penrith)

St George has volunteered to merge with Illawarra which should lead to a relocation of the club to Wollongong for the most part.

North Sydney has volunteered to move to the Central Coast, which would mean another relocation.

Canterbury has announced that they intend to build a stadium and complex in Liverpool which would remove them from the Central Sydney clubs.

City/Inner City (Easts,Balmain,Souths)
North Shore/Northern Beaches (Manly)
Southern City/The Shire (Souths, Cronulla)
South Western Sydney (Canterbury,Wests)
North Western Sydney (Empty)
Centralish Sydney (Parramatta,Balmain)
Outer Western Sydney (Penrith)

This leaves the following mergers viable.

Souths & Easts
Easts & Balmain
Souths & Balmain
Souths & Cronulla
Canterbury & Wests
Parramatta & Balmain

You would need to make 3 teams out of those 6 viable mergers with 1 club left to stand alone.

With Canterbury and Wests being the most logical teams for a merger out of that group join together and base themselves out of Liverpool.

It leaves just two teams with one viable merger partner.

Cronulla and Parramatta. I would argue at the time Parramatta had a lot more upside as a stand-alone entity than Cronulla did. They had the 2nd best Stadium in Sydney, they had a larger junior base, more money and a larger fan base as well as Parramatta basically being a city in all but name they are in a strong position and don't have to merge.

So Parramatta is the stand-alone club. This leaves us with.

Souths & Easts
Easts & Balmain
Souths & Balmain
Souths & Cronulla

Of those 4 clubs, two were major rivals Souths and Easts so ideally they wouldn't have been made to merge.

This leaves the final two mergers as

Easts and Balmain - This merger makes perfect sense the clubs home grounds are only 8.5km apart. Easts bring to the table good administrative skills and a good stadium and recent success. Balmain brings in a decent enough junior base to make the club self-sustained when combined with Easts meagre junior base. Balmain has a loyal following so they could have brought an extra 5-8k a game to games which would have seen average attendance around the 17,000 per game mark, with room to grow. Games which would struggle to sell at the SFS can be moved to Leichhardt Oval.


Souths and Cronulla - This merger is a lot tougher the clubs are roughly 20-25km apart Redfern Oval to Shark Park is about 19km but SFS is further away. both clubs could help each other mainly through fan base they would have a very strong junior catchment area but neither club was ever well run so combined they may have done better it also shores up southern Sydney.

So with these mergers taking place, you would have been looking at 6 full-time Sydney based clubs with Central Coast and St George Illawarra occasionally playing in Sydney part-time.

Every single geographical area in Sydney is covered and all clubs still exist in some form.

This is how they should have done it.

What we got was a stupid criterion which had no thought put into it at all and it was all rushed and made no logical sense.

Wests Tigers existing is a miracle Balmain and Wests are located 48km apart and should never have been made to merge, Norths and Manly both hated each other so it was never going to work.

The reason why the joint ventures have failed is that they made sure Eastern Suburbs couldn't fail the rationalization process and would be a stand-alone club and they just weren't strong enough in any way other than who owned them to be a stand-alone club.

Because we had to keep the Roosters as a stand-alone club everyone else has suffered and the joint-ventures with the exception of St George-Illawarra were doomed to fail.

All the clubs which tried to stand alone Penrith,Souths and Norths and others all fought so hard to stand alone because Easts were going to be a stand-alone club. All of those clubs rightly thought that they had as much or more going for them than Eastern Suburbs did at the time.

So they shouldn't have allowed the clubs to decide they should have just looked at a bloody map and then joined the most vulnerable clubs together who didn't hate each other together.

If we did the rationalization process properly we would have 10 teams from the NSW and ACT with strong junior bases and fan bases so they would be more self-sufficient. It would be easier to upgrade stadiums because only three Sydney teams would need it.

It would also give room for 10 expansion clubs may be more because we wouldn't have to worry so much about Sydney clubs being weak because they would all be fairly strong.
Rationalisation was dumb, therefore there should have been more of it.

That makes sense.

You still don't understand the damage that did to the game.
 

anjado

Juniors
Messages
1,092
Rationalisation was dumb, therefore there should have been more of it.

That makes sense.

You still don't understand the damage that did to the game.

I'm sorry but saying I don't understand the consequences of the rationalization period for Rugby League is an insulting thing to say since I lived through that period where every Sydney club had to hope they weren't thrown out of the competition or were forced into joint-venture or merger talks just so the Roosters could survive as a stand-alone club.

Ideally, no clubs would have had to merge and some probably would have died off as a result which would have been equally as devastating as any sort of merger.

So the scenario in which we save the Bears but have one more merger in the process would have been a better scenario than what actually happened. Where you had teams who merged who hated each other and teams who merged which made no sense at all in a geographical sense and Souths kicked out of the competition.
 

Mr Spock!

Referee
Messages
22,502
I'm sorry but saying I don't understand the consequences of the rationalization period for Rugby League is an insulting thing to say since I lived through that period where every Sydney club had to hope they weren't thrown out of the competition or were forced into joint-venture or merger talks just so the Roosters could survive as a stand-alone club.

Ideally, no clubs would have had to merge and some probably would have died off as a result which would have been equally as devastating as any sort of merger.

So the scenario in which we save the Bears but have one more merger in the process would have been a better scenario than what actually happened. Where you had teams who merged who hated each other and teams who merged which made no sense at all in a geographical sense and Souths kicked out of the competition.
My club was thrown out and you're dumb if you think we protested to follow the cronulla rabbits.
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
65,759
Rationalisation was dumb, therefore there should have been more of it.

That makes sense.

You still don't understand the damage that did to the game.

There was 22 clubs, something had to be done. As early as 1984 the nswrl knew that in order to grow a National Comp it would mean less Sydney clubs. Through the slow growth of the comp into a more National Comp over the last 35 years it has come at the expense of the Sydney teams due to their number. Nrl needs 4 more non Sydney clubs into the near future. If we go to 20 clubs or it comes at expense of four more Sydney clubs time will tell.
 

anjado

Juniors
Messages
1,092
My club was thrown out and you're dumb if you think we protested to follow the cronulla rabbits.

I never said you protested to follow the Cronulla Rabbits, You are looking at the situation beyond what it was in the late nineties. The reason Souths felt so strongly about being kicked out was partly that the Roosters survived as a stand-alone club over them.

You are looking at things now when it is a good thing Souths survived though they should be playing at the SFS rather than Homebush in the late nineties things were very different.

From 1996 to 1998 South Sydney had the lowest average attendance of all clubs in the Premiership. In 1997 they drew fewer people to home games than the Hunter Mariners who were the most unwanted and least supported club in the history of the game.

So when I say Souths should have merged with Cronulla I am doing it from the point of view of the time that the rationalization period took place. Which was two years before the protests when Souths were averaging 5,000 people per game.
 

big hit!

Bench
Messages
3,452
I know it’s too late now, but did Illawarra take any better? It would of made more sense geographically.

which is why the Manly & Norths marriage was doomed from the start. Geographic ties generally don't lend well to mergers....they're the biggest rivals!

It's be like f**king merging Roma & Lazio, Liverpool and Everton, or Real Madrid & Atletico Madrid.
 

Hello, I'm The Doctor

First Grade
Messages
9,124
I think what Wests Tigers SHOULD have done was treat their merge like a marriage between the old European kingdoms...

64214806_2222127621174366_7077995263586992128_n.jpg

64238804_2222127597841035_7057909226256990208_n.jpg


(Not my best work, but i think you get my point)

Just call them Western Sydney RLFC, have both mascots running around the field and just let the fans pick their own name. Whatever they end up going with, it will give the fans a sence of ownership instead of having the Magpie half the fans immediately pissed and the Balmain half waiting for retaliation.

Rather than the merge negotiators making all the branding choices, why not leave a bit of empty space for the fans to fill in....
 

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