3 month countdown.........

[MrE_Assassin]

It would be funny if the expansion-paralysis wasn't so serious.

You can just about put together a 'bingo board' of all the commonly stated non-expansion excuses that run as far back as Gallop (hell even before).

Oh, I can hear some say "Hey, but what about the Titans?".

Well, firstly if Souths had been banished for good, and the competition was 14 teams then the NRL would probably have never even added the Titans - such is the post-war lack of appetite for expansion. An expansion team was only added in the 2000s IMO to avoid an awkward 15 team comp with weekly byes. And that's before the process that decided on the Titans (all the impression of a knee-jerk response to AFL sniffing around the area) over strong Perth and Central Coast bids.

Imagine if things had gone the other way and they took in the Perth bid over the Titans.

1) They would have had a new broadcast slot much sooner which could have added valueable dollars over the last 12-13 years.

2) We may not have had the multitude of messes that the Titans have produced since entering. (Michael Searle, Coke-gate, Centre of Excellence, Hayne Plane, NRL managed period, etc)

3) Wouldn't be competing with RU there anymore (I say this as still I don't think they would have maintained the Force over the Rebels when condensing)

4) It would be one less expansion region we'd be looking at/talking about right now. This would ultimately lead to the certain inclusion of a South Brisbane/QLD team in whatever expansion they do next (this team could essentially have everything from the south of the river down to the border in stead of having the Titans as a roadblock for an expansion to the south. Then probably a different focus area of NZ or Adelaide.

 

[Vee]

It would be funny if the expansion-paralysis wasn't so serious.

You can just about put together a 'bingo board' of all the commonly stated non-expansion excuses that run as far back as Gallop (hell even before).

Oh, I can hear some say "Hey, but what about the Titans?".

Well, firstly if Souths had been banished for good, and the competition was 14 teams then the NRL would probably have never even added the Titans - such is the post-war lack of appetite for expansion. An expansion team was only added in the 2000s IMO to avoid an awkward 15 team comp with weekly byes. And that's before the process that decided on the Titans (all the impression of a knee-jerk response to AFL sniffing around the area) over strong Perth and Central Coast bids.

I don't remember Perth being a strong option at the time. I remember the Bears being a popular bid but for expansion's sake, I thought they got it right.

 

[flippikat]

I don't remember Perth being a strong option at the time. I remember the Bears being a popular bid but for expansion's sake, I thought they got it right.

I think the Perth bid was pretty under-developed in the mid 2000s (they were still going under the Reds brand, the Pirates re-launch still a few years away).. but in terms of potential they arguably had more to offer than the Bears or Titans - as MrE details above, the selling points of Perth are huge.

The NRL could have said to WARL, "Look, you can have the 16th license.. let's work on branding etc".. then it frees up the next expansion wave for Brisbane 2 plus either NZ2 or Adelaide.

 

[Vee]

I think the Perth bid was pretty under-developed in the mid 2000s (they were still going under the Reds brand, the Pirates re-launch still a few years away).. but in terms of potential they arguably had more to offer than the Bears or Titans - as MrE details above, the selling points of Perth are huge.

The NRL could have said to WARL, "Look, you can have the 16th license.. let's work on branding etc".. then it frees up the next expansion wave for Brisbane 2 plus either NZ2 or Adelaide.

Agree absolutely. Next to PR, I'm probably the strongest supporter of a Perth team on here for all the reasons you give. I just remember it being a race in two at the time.

 

[flippikat]

Agree absolutely. Next to PR, I'm probably the strongest supporter of a Perth team on here for all the reasons you give. I just remember it being a race in two at the time.

I think the Bears were always gonna bid. Wellington had a 'scribbled on the back of an envelope' kinda bid too (The Orcas).

Perth were rather quiet at the time, yeah.. but I think if they'd gathered up the bluster to have a run at it in 2004/5, when the 16th team was being decided, they could have pulled it off.

 

[RL The greatest game]

I am of the opinion that at this moment in time Rugby League administrators in this country are parochial when it comes to expansion.

 

[The Great Dane]

Perth weren't an option back in 2005 as they didn't reform the Reds until 06 and didn't start actively bidding for an NRL license until around 2012, well after the Titans won their license. Brisbane wasn't an option back then either because of shenanigans between the Broncos, News, and the NRL.

At the time there were only really three viable options: Gold Coast Titans, Wellington Orca, and Central Coast Bears.

With Hindsight the Titans don't look so good now, but of those three bids at the time the Titans did seem like the best option by quite a way, and their lack of success was totally unforeseeable, it's not like the NRL could have predicted that countless Titans administrations would be totally inept, or that the GFC would totally f**k up their business plan in the first year of their existence. In fact the Titans should serve as another warning that even the best laid plans can quickly turn to shit.

Truth be told, the NRL never should have expanded back then. The competition and the sport simply wasn't ready to expand and with hindsight there weren't any good options for expansion. What should have happened is as soon as the court ruling that forced the Rabbitohs back into the competition was overturned they should have been kick straight back out of the competition, but the NRL was to scared of the public backlash to do that, so instead they were forced to do things they weren't prepared to do and continue to suffer the consequences to this day.

 

[mongoose]

^You are probably right but credit to the Rabbitohs who have turned themselves into the best run Sydney club off the field, but no one would have forseen that either. If we are talking about shoulda/coulda/woulda then the NRL should have kept the Reds, Rams and Crushers and probably dumped the Sharks, Panthers and Sea Eagles back in 1998.

 

[The Great Dane]

^You are probably right but credit to the Rabbitohs who have turned themselves into the best run Sydney club off the field, but no one would have forseen that either.

The Rabbitohs having an A-list celebrity as a fan that was willing to invest millions of dollars into the club was a one in a million jackpot.

I mean good on them, I haven't got anything against them or Rusty. But lets be honest, it's more a case of good fortune then good planning, and it's highly unlikely that any of the other clubs are going to be so lucky.

If we are talking about shoulda/coulda/woulda then the NRL should have kept the Reds, Rams and Crushers and probably dumped the Sharks, Panthers and Sea Eagles back in 1998.

Yeah nah.

The Crushers were dead in the water. They were literally deep in the red before they ever kicked a ball, and never should have been granted a license in the first place. It's pretty safe to say that with or without Superleague they would have folded before 2000 or shortly thereafter. The Reds weren't much better off, but maybe if somebody was willing to throw away millions in propping them up for a while they might have been salvageable, but nobody was willing to do that.

On the other hand when the Rams were folded they had money in the bank, the same is true of the Chargers, and with some support both could have become reasonably strong clubs. It's a damn shame that they weren't given a chance when other clubs that were in worse positions did get a chance. . .

They probably wouldn't have replaced the Sea Eagles or Panthers though, those two were in comparatively good positions compared some of the other clubs. If we grant that mergers and relocation's other than the ones that actually happened weren't possible, then they almost certainly would have replaced two of either the Wests Tigers, St. George Illawarra, Cronulla, or maybe even the Warriors, Raiders, or Cowboys.

 

[tri_colours]

Yeah nah.

The Crushers were dead in the water. They were literally deep in the red before they ever kicked a ball, and never should have been granted a license in the first place. It's pretty safe to say that with or without Super
league they would have folded before 2000 or shortly thereafter. The Reds weren't much better off, but maybe if somebody was willing to throw away millions in propping them up for a while they might have been salvageable, but nobody was willing to do that.

On the other hand when the Rams were folded they had money in the bank, the same is true of the Chargers, and with some support both could have become reasonably strong clubs. It's a damn shame that they weren't given a chance when other clubs that were in worse positions did get a chance. . .

They probably wouldn't have replaced the Sea Eagles or Panthers though, those two were in comparatively good positions compared some of the other clubs. If we grant that mergers and relocation's other than the ones that actually happened weren't possible, then they almost certainly would have replaced two of either the Wests Tigers, St. George Illawarra, Cronulla, or maybe even the Warriors, Raiders, or Cowboys.

The crushers weren't dead in the water from early on at all. They had crowds averaging over 20k, in there first year , Top notch sponsorship and supporters. There on field results may have been poor , but that hardly makes them a doomed club. They were the only start up club not backed by news Ltd. that was there problem.


Hardly a level playing field. Murdoch's a Billionaire, sides he created, like Adelaide or sides with his backing were never going to be in any financial trouble.

 

[flippikat]

Perth weren't an option back in 2005 as they didn't reform the Reds until 06 and didn't start actively bidding for an NRL license until around 2012, well after the Titans won their license. Brisbane wasn't an option back then either because of shenanigans between the Broncos, News, and the NRL.

At the time there were only really three viable options: Gold Coast Titans, Wellington Orca, and Central Coast Bears.

It strikes me as funny that the Broncos/News/NRL shenanigans (as you say) made exception for a GC club, while staying firm on "no 2nd Brisbane club".

My understanding of the late 1997 peace settlement is that the Broncos got a SE-Qld monopoly - which effectively signed the death warrant for the Crushers & Chargers. To go from that to allowing the Titans is a softening of that position.

From the 3 bids that presented, the best (long run) choice may have been Wellington.

Personal bias aside (I am a Wellingtonian), going for the Orcas would buy the ARL time to get independence from News Ltd (and the Broncos insistence on a Brisbane monopoly) so that they could add a real Brisbane 2 and Perth in the next expansion phase in the early-mid 2010s.

Imagine 18 teams with Brisbane 2, Perth & Wellington, but no GC.

 

[Perth Red]

You surprise me,I never thought you'd come out with such optimism LOL.V'Landys on news website has had a meeting with the NSW sport's minister, and the minister has stated he is interested in looking at the issues as he understands the importance of suburban grounds. V'Landys has invited this guy to the Golden Eagle race.
The guy has spelt out his vision FWIW; Footprint is part of the expansionary process.
It was in the Herald also.The guy gets asked what are his priorities."Oh PR reckons only expansion to Perth is necessary, as all the other stuff will just sort itself out.

Who says it has to be $400m by the State govt, figures in your head doesn't mean it's that figure.

Your mate Smith was here for a couple of years, and we got zero expansion ,and playing numbers continues to decline.He hadn't picked up a Steeden.We didn't get new stadiums.
They've all got their faults.And i don't need the Telecrap News mob telling me who is good ,bad or hopeless.
If V'Landys is hopeless down the line, the board and the fans will soon let him know.Just as they did with 3 amigos at Telstra years ago.

you might get$10mill for some ladies changing rooms or essential toilet upgrades but you ai t getting the $100mill plus most of these grounds need to get them up to decent 25k standard.

 

[Perth Red]

I think the Perth bid was pretty under-developed in the mid 2000s (they were still going under the Reds brand, the Pirates re-launch still a few years away).. but in terms of potential they arguably had more to offer than the Bears or Titans - as MrE details above, the selling points of Perth are huge.

The NRL could have said to WARL, "Look, you can have the 16th license.. let's work on branding etc".. then it frees up the next expansion wave for Brisbane 2 plus either NZ2 or Adelaide.

The a perth bid didn’t get serious until about 2011. The game was pretty much dead here until around 2009 when it started to recover. The Titans expansion period came just a bit too early for us sadly.

 

[2012....Sharks Year]

you might get$10mill for some ladies changing rooms or essential toilet upgrades but you ai t getting the $100mill plus most of these grounds need to get them up to decent 25k standard.

Don't underestimate the fact that Sco-mo is a Sharks tragic and number 1 ticket holder. Add in the fact that the whole joint is being shut down for 2 years for the leagues club makeover and centre of excellence etc... sounds like a perfect time for a funding announcement.... stay tuned Red.

 

[The Great Dane]

The crushers weren't dead in the water from early on at all. They had crowds averaging over 20k, in there first year , Top notch sponsorship and supporters. There on field results may have been poor , but that hardly makes them a doomed club. They were the only start up club not backed by news Ltd. that was there problem.


Hardly a level playing field. Murdoch's a Billionaire, sides he created, like Adelaide or sides with his backing were never going to be in any financial trouble.

It's real nice that they had a top notch sponsor and stuff, but they had supposedly already run up a significant debt before they had even played a game, and that debt only built up over their three seasons in the competition, until it combined with the pressures of the SL war, and tanking attendance number that accelerated the process, sunk them.

Take SL out of the picture and they were almost certainly still screwed. Unless there was a miracle and somebody came along and bailed them out they were destine to collapse sometime around 2000.

It seems that they made the classic mistakes of underestimating how much money they'd need in start up funds to get the business off the ground, underestimating how much it would cost to run the business annually, and overestimating how much money they'd bring in annually.

 

[The Great Dane]

Don't underestimate the fact that Sco-mo is a Sharks tragic and number 1 ticket holder. Add in the fact that the whole joint is being shut down for 2 years for the leagues club makeover and centre of excellence etc... sounds like a perfect time for a funding announcement.... stay tuned Red.

If Morrison or the Liberal government announced federal funding for Shark park or other suburban stadiums that would significantly benefit the Sharks or NRL clubs in Sydney generally it'd be seen as one of the most blatant cases of pork-barreling in the countries history, and he'd have investigations into potential corruption following him around for the rest of his career!

It'd almost certainly be political suicide as well as every one of his detractors would throw him 'misappropriating funds' for his mates at the Sharks/NRL over his head until it sunk him.

 

[2012....Sharks Year]

If Morrison or the Liberal government announced federal funding for Shark park or other suburban stadiums that would significantly benefit the Sharks or NRL clubs in Sydney generally it'd be seen as one of the most blatant cases of pork-barreling in the countries history, and he'd have investigations into potential corruption following him around for the rest of his career!

It'd almost certainly be political suicide as well as every one of his detractors would throw him 'misappropriating funds' for his mates at the Sharks/NRL over his head until it sunk him.

That's where V'landys and the Nrl come in....they've already stated that the suburban grounds are one of their priorities. If i remember Manly has a $40 million federal grant waiting for them courtesy of Tony Abbott.

 

[taipan]

you might get$10mill for some ladies changing rooms or essential toilet upgrades but you ai t getting the $100mill plus most of these grounds need to get them up to decent 25k standard.

A dollar for dollar basis is not $100m.If half is provided by the clubs concerned.I don't think anyone in their right mind would suggest the State Govt would provide $100m to a club,if that is the figure needed BTW,after their near $2bn outlay for the major stadiums, and a hostile opposition and cynical public.

Interest rates being as low as they are now and in the future ,is more of an incentive for a club to borrow provided they either have the asset backing and/or private backing. Again you keep bringing up 25K ,that is not a must have figure for these outer Sydney clubs.

 

[The Great Dane]

That's where V'landys and the Nrl come in....they've already stated that the suburban grounds are one of their priorities.

That doesn't address anything that I brought up at all...

If i remember Manly has a $40 million federal grant waiting for them courtesy of Tony Abbott.

In a blatant attempt to buy votes in the last election they got $12 million dollars in federal funding to go towards their upgrade, but the Brookvale upgrade is mainly funded by the state government not the federal government, the upgrade isn't going to go close to addressing the problems at Brookvale (it's lipstick on a pig stuff), and $12 mil isn't anywhere close to the hundreds of millions (potentially over the billion mark) that the NRL would need in federal funding to upgrade (and in some cases knockdown rebuild) all the suburban stadiums in Sydney that need it.

Also though it says that Tony Abbott secured the funding in the papers, that is political speak, it was a totally cynical political play, and more importantly he wasn't the Prime Minister at the time.

If you think that the state government is going to dole out a whole heap more money for stadiums just after they've spent a fortune on upgrading Parramatta, ANZ, and the SFS, especially after the backlash last time, then you are insane.

Oh and BTW, Brookvale shouldn't have seen a cent of it anyway, as it's a massive waste of taxpayers money when better centralised stadiums exist.

 

[2012....Sharks Year]

That doesn't address anything that I brought up at all...

In a blatant attempt to buy votes in the last election they got $12 million dollars in federal funding to go towards their upgrade, but the Brookvale upgrade is mainly funded by the state government not the federal government, the upgrade isn't going to go close to addressing the problems at Brookvale (it's lipstick on a pig stuff), and $12 mil isn't anywhere close to the hundreds of millions (potentially over the billion mark) that the NRL would need in federal funding to upgrade (and in some cases knockdown rebuild) all the suburban stadiums in Sydney that need it.

Also though it says that Tony Abbott secured the funding in the papers, that is political speak, it was a totally cynical political play, and more importantly he wasn't the Prime Minister at the time.

If you think that the state government is going to dole out a whole heap more money for stadiums just after they've spent a fortune on upgrading Parramatta, ANZ, and the SFS, especially after the backlash last time, then you are insane.

Oh and BTW, Brookvale shouldn't have seen a cent of it anyway, as it's a massive waste of taxpayers money when better centralised stadiums exist.

No one ever suggested knocking down and rebuilding stadiums.... the last thing the Sydney fans want is more stadiums lacking in character. That's part of the charm of going to Brookie... Kogarah...Leichhardt...Shark Park etc. Just a sneaky 20 mill would do for a few tweaks and upgrades.