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the fight at the leagues club..

Dave Q

Coach
Messages
11,065
I imagine that the offenders amongst the subject Police will be charged.

Then to their horror, they will find themselves on the other side of the justice equation.

The Police Force may well abandon them. The DPP may be after them, all guns blazing. QC's and all that.

And if they plead "non-guilty" a jury of people like you and me may determine their guilt or innocence.

It will be nightmare for all involved.

But a young man is dead.

Whether he was a dickhead or not, we need some accountability.

These officers will never be the same. I wouldnt be surprised if one or two of them contract a mental illness.

Sadly, regrettably......this is the beginning of their end.
 
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_Johnsy

Referee
Messages
28,848
Have you seen the footage?

Yes I have, it clearly shows the man on the ground being struck with a baton in the upper leg area.

As dave suggested a young man is dead, lets not play semantics with this thread like it is topical water cooler chat.

Personally i would like to see video and audio of the "entire" incident. Not a few select minutes but the entire incident. lets be clear here, even if it was made available the media would choose a 15 second section to sensationalise the incident to grab viewers or sell papers/get website hits.

No-one, and i mean no-one can inform an opinion as to who is at fault without all of the evidence & information of what transpired. Obviously this is not available, thats why it will take numerous hours/days/maybe weeks to obtain statements etc. As I stated earlier, i'll leave it up to the coroner, that person is the only person who can make a legally binding judgement on the incident and if anyone should face charges over the incident.
 

Dave Q

Coach
Messages
11,065
My reading of Section 78 of the Coroners Act suggests to me that the DPP can still charge someone, even during an inquest, but then the Coroner can either abandon the inquest or continue on...but only in a restricted capacity.

So a jury can ultimately determine the guilt or innocence of the accused, once the matter has made its way past the coroner.

The coroner can of course, after sussing out the evidence, make a reccommendation to the powers that be... about charging someone...

So the evidence given by the subject to police to the coroner, will not contain admissions as to elements of the various offences that lead to trouble such as murder and manslaughter and so forth.

For the sake of our respectful discussion, heres the current legal definition as of today:-

CRIMES ACT 1900 - SECT 18

Murder and manslaughter defined
18 Murder and manslaughter defined
(1)
(a) Murder shall be taken to have been committed where the act of the accused, or thing by him or her omitted to be done, causing the death charged, was done or omitted with reckless indifference to human life, or with intent to kill or inflict grievous bodily harm upon some person, or done in an attempt to commit, or during or immediately after the commission, by the accused, or some accomplice with him or her, of a crime punishable by imprisonment for life or for 25 years.
(b) Every other punishable homicide shall be taken to be manslaughter.
(2)
(a) No act or omission which was not malicious, or for which the accused had lawful cause or excuse, shall be within this section.
(b) No punishment or forfeiture shall be incurred by any person who kills another by misfortune only.
Maybe bashing someone to the extent that they did, amounted to a "reckless indifference" to their life. I dont know. Where was the excuse of a lawful cause ( see 2(a) above) when they went on with it? How far do you go to subdue someone? Which cop, if any, landed the "killer blow?"

And even manslaughter can carry 25 years in chokey.

I doubt that any of the cops had the intention of actually killing him, but "reckless indifference" doesnt suggest exactly an actual intent.

Lots of issues to explore.

Of course, the cops involved are a long long way off being charged with murder. Something tells me they wont be either.

But this is all hypothetical at this point, a very ordinary occurance.
 
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Dragons_#1

Bench
Messages
4,581
so bashing an already handcuffed and restrained man to death with a baton is considered reasonable and necessary????

these police must face justice, they're guilty of this tragic death I'm afraid.

Give yourself an uppercut buddy....

The coroner has already said that he didnt die from a baton strike... Do the job for one day and i bet the first brawl u get into when ur in the uniform u start grabbing for appointments and calling for back up. unfortunately some people take it too far against the Police and try and fight against them this is the reason they are given certain powers to use certain appointments...

Everyone forgets that Police are the first people u call when ur in trouble but as soon as they are the ones on the wrong side of the law they start to fire up against Police. This is when sh*t hits the fan.. Police are there to help!! Simple...


Know one will ever no what happened that night except for the Police invovled and the parties involved in the brawl. No point specualting!!
 
Messages
16,034
I absolutely hate police batons. I can't fathom an appropriate way for a police officer to use these? They're a brutal form of crowd control IMO.

On another note, are the staff at the Leagues club usually such jerks? The old mate on the TAB refused to cash my winning ticket for picking Darius Boyd for the CC Medal, trying to tell me that it had expired? (This was only the day after the GF) WTF is the go with that??

First and foremost, my best wish's to the family in their time of grief.

But what on earth do you expect them to use?
 

_Johnsy

Referee
Messages
28,848
My reading of Section 78 of the Coroners Act suggests to me that the DPP can still charge someone, even during an inquest, but then the Coroner can either abandon the inquest or continue on...but only in a restricted capacity.

True,

TBH Dave I cannot think of one instance where this has happened (I am sure it would have at some stage). Often a coroners inquest can be a useful excercise in obtaining additional information, as with the Daniel Morcombe inquest that is being held ATM. http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...ers-tell-inquest/story-e6freoof-1225937865561

TELEPHONE records of the Sunshine Coast bus company at the centre of the Daniel Morcombe inquest will be searched to try to locate the "mystery woman'' who inquired about a missing boy an hour before the teenager's disappearance.
Counsel assisting the Morcombe family, Peter Boyce, asked the court to order the phone records to search for the woman, who has emerged as a fresh lead in the seven-year investigation.
Counsel acting for the Queensland Police Service, Sarah Neale, said that the ``intel section'' of QPS had ordered the records from the provider.
Sunbus duty manager Jeff Norman told the court yesterday that a woman made a one-minute phone call to the company to ask if there was a report of a boy waiting to catch a bus from Woombye, about 800m from the overpass where Daniel disappeared.
Mt Norman said the woman sounded stressed, and did not leave contact details.
The inquest before State Coroner Michael Barnes was told this was the time between when one bus driver saw him but failed to stop and a back-up shuttle arrived to find the 13-year-old had vanished, along with a "scruffy man" and blue car seen nearby.
Giving evidence at Maroochydore yesterday, Mr Norman said he had been driving a shuttle directed to look out for the boy at an unofficial bus stop near the Kiel Mountain Rd Overpass at Woombye.
He said he had been 800m behind the first bus driven by Ross Edmonds, whom he had ordered to go "express" to Sunshine Plaza when he was 45 minutes behind schedule because of a breakdown.
"I told Ross I would finish the route, pick anyone up and give them a free ride to the plaza," Mr Norman said.
When Mr Edmonds saw the boy "waving his arm" to be picked up near the overpass, he drove on but called Mr Norman on the two-way to tell him.
Mr Norman said he picked up his radio and said: "Roger Ross, I'll get him."
He said he and a colleague travelling with him were only "a minute and a half" behind.
"I slowed down and we both looked. There was absolutely nothing there . . . nobody."
Mr Norman tried to raise Mr Edmonds to check the details but his radio "wasn't very good".
In his evidence, Mr Edmonds, a bus driver of 40 years, said it had been obvious the boy wanted to get on his bus. "He did put his finger up. I gestured to him there was another bus coming. Hopefully he could lip read," Mr Edmonds said.
He defended his decision not to stop, saying he was told not to.
"I was ordered on the day to keep going on with the passengers, who'd been waiting long enough," he said.
Passenger Katherine Bird told the inquest that a young boy had stepped forward and waved for the bus to stop.
"The driver signalled to the boy with his thumb that there was another bus coming, not that I think the boy would have understood that," Ms Bird said.
She said she had seen a man standing behind the boy with his leg up against the wall and his arms crossed.
He had a tattoo, or marking, on his leg and was dressed in shorts.
She said the "strange thing" was he had not moved to get on the bus and seemed to be watching the child.
Ms Bird said she "had words" with the driver for not stopping.
Another witness, Joan Anderson, said she felt something was wrong when she and her husband had driven past Daniel that afternoon.
The inquest continues until Friday.
 
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league

Juniors
Messages
1,680
Give yourself an uppercut buddy....

The coroner has already said that he didnt die from a baton strike...

I'm not disputing you, but could you provide a link?

Do the job for one day and i bet the first brawl u get into when ur in the uniform u start grabbing for appointments and calling for back up. unfortunately some people take it too far against the Police and try and fight against them this is the reason they are given certain powers to use certain appointments...

I'm a security guard myself and although our powers are completely different to that of the police, myself and my colleagues have always had tense and hostile situations under control. I've made countless arrests over the years and never have I had to resort to bashing somone already restrained with a baton. Police have to be very careful how they exercise their power especially when using potentially deadly weapons such as batons and tasers.


Everyone forgets that Police are the first people u call when ur in trouble but as soon as they are the ones on the wrong side of the law they start to fire up against Police. This is when sh*t hits the fan.. Police are there to help!! Simple...

what's that got to do with the price of fish?:lol:
do you seriously want us to sympathise with them because of that?
it's simple, you break the law=you get punished. That's how society operates, regardless of who you are.


Know one will ever no what happened that night except for the Police invovled and the parties involved in the brawl. No point specualting!!

the witnesses that have so far come forward seem to share my sentiments too. Judging from that video and judging from witness accounts, the police over-reacted.
 

Dave Q

Coach
Messages
11,065
True,

TBH Dave I cannot think of one instance where this has happened (I am sure it would have at some stage). Often a coroners inquest can be a useful excercise in obtaining additional information, as with the Daniel Morcombe inquest that is being held ATM. http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...ers-tell-inquest/story-e6freoof-1225937865561

TELEPHONE records of the Sunshine Coast bus company at the centre of the Daniel Morcombe inquest will be searched to try to locate the "mystery woman'' who inquired about a missing boy an hour before the teenager's disappearance.
Counsel assisting the Morcombe family, Peter Boyce, asked the court to order the phone records to search for the woman, who has emerged as a fresh lead in the seven-year investigation.
Counsel acting for the Queensland Police Service, Sarah Neale, said that the ``intel section'' of QPS had ordered the records from the provider.
Sunbus duty manager Jeff Norman told the court yesterday that a woman made a one-minute phone call to the company to ask if there was a report of a boy waiting to catch a bus from Woombye, about 800m from the overpass where Daniel disappeared.
Mt Norman said the woman sounded stressed, and did not leave contact details.
The inquest before State Coroner Michael Barnes was told this was the time between when one bus driver saw him but failed to stop and a back-up shuttle arrived to find the 13-year-old had vanished, along with a "scruffy man" and blue car seen nearby.
Giving evidence at Maroochydore yesterday, Mr Norman said he had been driving a shuttle directed to look out for the boy at an unofficial bus stop near the Kiel Mountain Rd Overpass at Woombye.
He said he had been 800m behind the first bus driven by Ross Edmonds, whom he had ordered to go "express" to Sunshine Plaza when he was 45 minutes behind schedule because of a breakdown.
"I told Ross I would finish the route, pick anyone up and give them a free ride to the plaza," Mr Norman said.
When Mr Edmonds saw the boy "waving his arm" to be picked up near the overpass, he drove on but called Mr Norman on the two-way to tell him.
Mr Norman said he picked up his radio and said: "Roger Ross, I'll get him."
He said he and a colleague travelling with him were only "a minute and a half" behind.
"I slowed down and we both looked. There was absolutely nothing there . . . nobody."
Mr Norman tried to raise Mr Edmonds to check the details but his radio "wasn't very good".
In his evidence, Mr Edmonds, a bus driver of 40 years, said it had been obvious the boy wanted to get on his bus. "He did put his finger up. I gestured to him there was another bus coming. Hopefully he could lip read," Mr Edmonds said.
He defended his decision not to stop, saying he was told not to.
"I was ordered on the day to keep going on with the passengers, who'd been waiting long enough," he said.
Passenger Katherine Bird told the inquest that a young boy had stepped forward and waved for the bus to stop.
"The driver signalled to the boy with his thumb that there was another bus coming, not that I think the boy would have understood that," Ms Bird said.
She said she had seen a man standing behind the boy with his leg up against the wall and his arms crossed.
He had a tattoo, or marking, on his leg and was dressed in shorts.
She said the "strange thing" was he had not moved to get on the bus and seemed to be watching the child.
Ms Bird said she "had words" with the driver for not stopping.
Another witness, Joan Anderson, said she felt something was wrong when she and her husband had driven past Daniel that afternoon.
The inquest continues until Friday.

No doubt that these things can be quite useful as you have illustrated.
I am not sure whether the coronial QLD laws are the same as those in NSW...have a look at the section.

But after reading this, I wonder why the Police didnt stumble upon this earlier. Maybe the bus manager guy didnt come forward. Pretty slack.
The cops could have got a warrant for the line records in about 3 seconds flat.

That poor kid....

Heres a piece from a famous inquest:

Finding by jury into the death of Jacob Kovco on April 2 2008.

‘Private Jacob Bruce Kovco died on 21 April 2006 at 6.52pm (Arabic daylight time) at the US 10th Combat Support Hospital, Baghdad, Republic of Iraq from the effects of a gunshot wound to his head from an Australian Army issue 9mm Browning Self Loading Pistol suffered by him the same day in the accommodation lines at the Australian Embassy, Baghdad in circumstances where the gun shot wound had been;

Irresponsibly self-inflicted by Private Kovco in that Private Kovco disregarded the possible consequences of danger at the time he deliberately pulled the trigger of the pistol causing it to discharge and on the balance of probabilities he unintentionally took his own life’

Back to the case at hand, the footage I saw as well as the witness statements suggest that the Police may have over-reacted. I wasnt there, its easy for me to make a guess in the quiet office environment. I wonder if it was reasonably forseeable to them that he had a heart condition.

Then again, the morgues are littered with people who have had sudden heart attacks, from conditions that even people close to them, were entirely unaware of.

I think its important for people here, witnesses, people who were there on the night to front up to cops and give evidence.

Even if you didnt see the event itself, there are things you might have seen that the cops and/or other witnesses (even those against the cops) say didnt happen. You can set the record straight. Your evidence might be the same as the cops or someone elses.

A young man is dead, do your bit to help the community sort it out.

You will sleep a bit easier and as a member of the community, with an open mind,I would be grateful for your help.





 

Dragons_#1

Bench
Messages
4,581
I'm not disputing you, but could you provide a link?



I'm a security guard myself and although our powers are completely different to that of the police, myself and my colleagues have always had tense and hostile situations under control. I've made countless arrests over the years and never have I had to resort to bashing somone already restrained with a baton. Police have to be very careful how they exercise their power especially when using potentially deadly weapons such as batons and tasers.




what's that got to do with the price of fish?:lol:
do you seriously want us to sympathise with them because of that?
it's simple, you break the law=you get punished. That's how society operates, regardless of who you are.




the witnesses that have so far come forward seem to share my sentiments too. Judging from that video and judging from witness accounts, the police over-reacted.


The link is somehwere within this thread... it came out a couple of days ago actually...

Ok security guards do have certain powers agreed but to be honest do they have the same appointments to use as cops? no... i would assume that most security guards would use such appointments if they had them available. Show me where it says he was already restrained??? i think u will find that is a load of sh!t.

what do u mean what does that have to do with the price of fish?? if u where the one geting bashed or u where in a certain situation where Police where needed u would be the first to call 000 unless ur a hero and can control all situations..Think of the people who feared for their safety that night.. im sure they are thank ful for the presence of cops that night! Yeh it may not have ended the best way and i realise that but f*ck me for all we no the guy could have been trying to kill someone else.

Love to see the witness statements if u have them??? Cops cant even get access to them so not sure how u did but forward them on if possible :) thanks mate..
oh thats right i forgot, if its in the paper it must be true!!


RIP to the man who passed that night, my thoughts are with u!
 

_Johnsy

Referee
Messages
28,848
Dave,

Out of curiosity what implications/conflicts are raised due to military involvement and also given that the incident occured on crown land. I imagine it would/could be a bit messy. I know Police have very, very limited powers on ADF bases (crown land). Essentially Police can only enter to detain/arrest someone if the offence occured outside the confines of the crown land. Much depends on the willingness of the Military Police's co-operation (they're always happy to help).

League,

Security guards can only make an arrest the same as a "citizens arrest", in essence they can only detain someone. The use of the word arrest is quite misleading. If they were to arrest someone they would then have to have powers to then facilitate the continuation of the arrest (which they don't) they would also need the power to dscontinue an arrest (which they don't). How do they then complete the required court brief as the arresting person/party/officer. Essentially they baby sit the person (again under certain circumstances only - protecting property of their employer etc) ie, they detain that person until a Police Officer attends and then the Police actually arrests that person.

If I was a security guard I would under no circumstance arrest someone (does the security guard advise that person they are under arrest ?), all you are doing is opening yourself to civil lawsuits, and facing possible criminal charges (deprivaion of liberty etc).

Security guards need to be better informed about what they can and cannot do, and the powers they have. I would'nt trust someone who runs a course for a couple of days telling mwe what I can and cannot do, the security is in urgent need of an overhaul, and the legislation is not clear in any state.

Have a read of this, it may save you some pain, stress & loss in the future.

http://www.law.qut.edu.au/ljj/editions/v8n2/pdf/2_Legal_powers_private_security_personnel_SARRE.pdf
 
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league

Juniors
Messages
1,680
League,

Security guards can only make an arrest the same as a "citizens arrest", in essence they can only detain someone. The use of the word arrest is quite misleading. If they were to arrest someone they would then have to have powers to then facilitate the continuation of the arrest (which they don't) they would also need the power to dscontinue an arrest (which they don't). How do they then complete the required court brief as the arresting person/party/officer. Essentially they baby sit the person (again under certain circumstances only - protecting property of their employer etc) ie, they detain that person until a Police Officer attends and then the Police actually arrests that person.

If I was a security guard I would under no circumstance arrest someone (does the security guard advise that person they are under arrest ?), all you are doing is opening yourself to civil lawsuits, and facing possible criminal charges (deprivaion of liberty etc).

Security guards need to be better informed about what they can and cannot do, and the powers they have. I would'nt trust someone who runs a course for a couple of days telling mwe what I can and cannot do, the security is in urgent need of an overhaul, and the legislation is not clear in any state.

Have a read of this, it may save you some pain, stress & loss in the future.

http://www.law.qut.edu.au/ljj/editions/v8n2/pdf/2_Legal_powers_private_security_personnel_SARRE.pdf

you're quite right and most of the time it's not worth the headache for a security guard to make an arrest. You're also correct that we have no more authority than a normal citizen. However, a security guard, like a police officer must at all times use reasonable and neccesary force when detaining/restraining someone.

(does the security guard advise that person they are under arrest ?)

absolutely, the offender must be read the caution.

thanks for that document, I'll have a read of it a bit later.
 

_Johnsy

Referee
Messages
28,848
However, a security guard, like a police officer must at all times use reasonable and neccesary force when detaining/restraining someone.

League,

As I said earlier in the thread, the only way someone who was not involved in that incident can determine what was reasonable force, is by seeing the entire incident, and having all the available evidence. Not just a 15 second section of the footage.

The coroner will determine if charges should be laid against the officers,or anyone else involved. What I am about to say is in no way meant as a derogatory comment. I would not trust a joe public, or an intoxicated joe or joanne public, or a even a securtiy guards (who was not present) judgement on what did or did not occur, or what should happen to anyone who was present.

I'll trust the coroner to make the right decision, regardless of what side that decision may fall.
 

_Johnsy

Referee
Messages
28,848
absolutely, the offender must be read the caution.

Actually mate that is not correct. The "offender" is not obliged do anything at all, Police can require name, DOB & address (if they don't provide this info they can be charged with an additonal offence), security guards only have this power under these conditions

If someone trespasses on property, including if you remain on premises when you have been asked to leave, then the employee (security guard) can ask your name and address and it is an offence to refuse to give it or to provide false details;

Or a security guard of a licensed premise believes a person is under 18 then they can ask your age and request identification.

No person that has been detained by a security guard is under any obligation to read anything, answer any question. A security guard can certainly ask them to do anything (within reason), if they oblige then happy days,
 

league

Juniors
Messages
1,680
Actually mate that is not correct. The "offender" is not obliged do anything at all, Police can require name, DOB & address (if they don't provide this info they can be charged with an additonal offence), security guards only have this power under these conditions

If someone trespasses on property, including if you remain on premises when you have been asked to leave, then the employee (security guard) can ask your name and address and it is an offence to refuse to give it or to provide false details;

Or a security guard of a licensed premise believes a person is under 18 then they can ask your age and request identification.

No person that has been detained by a security guard is under any obligation to read anything, answer any question. A security guard can certainly ask them to do anything (within reason), if they oblige then happy days,

I think you misunderstood me.

What I meant was if a security guard was to arrest someone then the arrest caution must obviously be read to that person, or did I misunderstand your original question?
 

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