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Eelementary

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Messages
58,109
Don't agree at all Eelementry. You are over thinking and complicating it way to much.

Look no further than Parra not having a 5/8th or Half of note for most of the 20 plus years that we have not won a premiership.
Note that Parra got closest to the title in the years that we had a decent spine all performing at their best.

That's cool. It was just my theory.

But in 2001 we had Jason Taylor - a bloke who, up until Joey and Hazem broke it, was the leading NRL points-scorer. A handy general, too.

We also had Mick Beuttner at 5/8, and he provided excellent service to the likes of Jamie Lyon and Luke Burt and Hodgson.

We had Brett Hodgson at fullback. And we had PJ Marsh and Brad Drew interchanging at hooker.

In 2005 we had Wade McKinnon at fullback, John Morris at 5/8, Tim Smith at halfback and PJ Marsh and Mark Riddell at hooker.

In both years we had a general at halfback who was capable of laying on plays; a solid 5/8 who got the ball out wide and also was able to set up plays; hookers who could run, tackle, kick and pass; and solid fullbacks.

The first 20 minutes of the 2001 GF and the 2005 GF Qualifier is where both games were lost. We came out and were looking underdone from the first whistle IMO. Ditto the 2009 GF. In that game, when we finally settled the nerves and started playing footy, we looked awesome.

I hate to even think it, but I have thought for a long time that the veterans from the 2001 GF have never gotten over it, and it may be a psychological "trauma" which may be why we're "gun-shy" when it comes to big games.

It's not a fact, but an observation from me based on what I have witnessed.
 

hineyrulz

Post Whore
Messages
157,691
That's cool. It was just my theory.

But in 2001 we had Jason Taylor - a bloke who, up until Joey and Hazem broke it, was the leading NRL points-scorer. A handy general, too.

We also had Mick Beuttner at 5/8, and he provided excellent service to the likes of Jamie Lyon and Luke Burt and Hodgson.

We had Brett Hodgson at fullback. And we had PJ Marsh and Brad Drew interchanging at hooker.

In 2005 we had Wade McKinnon at fullback, John Morris at 5/8, Tim Smith at halfback and PJ Marsh and Mark Riddell at hooker.

In both years we had a general at halfback who was capable of laying on plays; a solid 5/8 who got the ball out wide and also was able to set up plays; hookers who could run, tackle, kick and pass; and solid fullbacks.

The first 20 minutes of the 2001 GF and the 2005 GF Qualifier is where both games were lost. We came out and were looking underdone from the first whistle IMO. Ditto the 2009 GF. In that game, when we finally settled the nerves and started playing footy, we looked awesome.

I hate to even think it, but I have thought for a long time that the veterans from the 2001 GF have never gotten over it, and it may be a psychological "trauma" which may be why we're "gun-shy" when it comes to big games.

It's not a fact, but an observation from me based on what I have witnessed.
I agree with that 100%, i have always thought that the two Naths and Burty,Vella and the likes never got over that 2001 GF loss. i know i haven't :(
 

IFR33K

Coach
Messages
17,043
I agree with that 100%, i have always thought that the two Naths and Burty,Vella and the likes never got over that 2001 GF loss. i know i haven't :(

That is stating the obvious. No player in the history of the game has gotten over a gf loss. Especially if they don't end up winning one before there career ends.
 

Eelementary

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Messages
58,109
That is stating the obvious. No player in the history of the game has gotten over a gf loss. Especially if they don't end up winning one before there career ends.

Within reason. Look at Jamie Lyon - lost it with us in '01, then when he got another chance with Manly he took it with open arms. He was switched on from minute 1 IMO.

Hindy, Burty, Caylo etc. are legends of this club and we all love them dearly. But I fear they have been "traumatised" by the loss of the 2001 Premiership and whenever they play a big game they go out there very tentatively and modestly because they're scared of losing again.

Now, it's just a theory - I reiterate. And I also point out at this point that it doesn't make those blokes losers in my book. They're freaking legends.

But something is not right here...When you get beaten by a better side, so be it. Absolutely. And at the end of the day, both Newcastle and Melbourne did the right things on their respective days to win the titles.

But I look back at both games and I compare the times when we were dominating - in 2001 it was the second half, and in 2009 it was also the second half. In both games when we were on song, we were pretty unstoppable - we were muscling up in defense, making metres at will, scoring some freakish tries...

But coming out and playing a horrible first 40 minutes cost us big time.

Now, it could be argued that that is a Parramatta Eels issue, period - that we have a tendency to play poorly for the first 20 to 40 minutes of any game, not just deciders, and then try to come home with a wet sail. And there is something to that.

But to me, there is one, key difference - in regular club games when we play poorly in the first half, we have a tendency to start well for the first 5 minutes or so and then drift off. I've seen it dozens of times - I watch the first 5 minutes or so and think to myself, "Yep, we've come to play." Then we let in one soft try and next thing you know we're down 18-nil after 20 minutes.

But in Finals games where we've played poorly in the last decade or so, it's been my observation that we have started the game looking poorly.

So what is the difference? If you start looking OK and deteriorate, it's a lack of concentration IMO (and other factors such as errors and penalties and completion rates in general, of course). If you start the game poorly from the get go, it's poor preparation.

Let's focus on preparation for a second. How can you prepare poorly for the biggest match in your life, in this - the day of modern professional rugby league where big bucks are up for grabs? Nerves certainly play a part. But many a star athlete has said before that nerves aren't necessarily a bad thing - I recall Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods and Andre Agassi all at one point in their lives or another agreeing that nerves are important, because they make you take risks in an "anything to win" attitude.

In the first half of the 2001 GF, we looked meek. We looked scared. Now, it was a young side. It would be foolish not to expect a degree of nerves and timidness to expose itself. But the degree to which it was shown...Newcastle, full credit to them, played a near-perfect 40 minutes. And maybe they had the psychological advantage in the sense that they were the underdogs and few people expected them to win anyway. It must have taken a load of pressure off of them, to the point where they felt they could go out there with a "care-free" attitude - which worked wonders for them.

But at the end of the day, Newcastle did two things that eventually proved successful: (1) they targeted their back-row [and what a back-row it was] at our halves; and (2) they came out with a "we have nothing to lose" attitude. In essence, they were properly prepared mentally for the game.

Consider our boys - missing simple tackles, getting belted, dropping easy catches...Next thing you know we're down 24-nil. And all of a sudden that's the catalyst we need - WE are now the underdogs; nobody now expects US to win this game; the pressure valve has been released from the EELS. And we go out in that second half and almost pull a victory from the jaws of defeat. It wasn't to be, of course.

But I ask you - how can it be that a side can cope so poorly with pressure and expectation? We are not alone, of course. But we are regular exponents of the law of favourites losing regularly. The last time I genuinely remember the Eels being favourites in the regular season and performing to that standard was in 2005. You could argue a few times in 2009, but either way - it's far too few and far between to show any consistency. So it brings me back to the question that puzzles me - how can this team cope so badly with expectation and pressure?

I'm not sure what the answer is - I am sure that the loyal fan base being so hungry for success doesn't help. But what about other sides? What about Cronulla? The Titans? Hell, even the Bulldogs? The Dogs have a loyal fan base. They won a title recently but have not done so since, and before their triumph in 2004 they were waiting, too. But they don't seem to crumble under pressure the same way we do; the infamous "Dogs of war" statement springs to mind, whereby the Dogs having their backs against the wall was the best thing that could happen to them (I recall the Final game a few years ago where they were behind and then blew their opponents off the park in the second half).

I have heard that Brian Smith has a lot to answer for; that he is a master tactician, but a poor motivator. Conversely, Michael Hagan is a poor tactician but a good motivator. Personally, I don't buy into the Hagan explanation - surely when you have blokes like Andrew Johns, Danny Buderus, Ben Kennedy, Steve Simpson and Robbie O'Davis, to name but a few, in your squad, motivation comes naturally anyway? So, then - how about Jason Taylor? Or Daniel Anderson?

Taylor was accused of being too much of a "buddy" with the players, whilst Anderson was seen as an extension of Brian Smith. And much like Brian, Anderson had some success but was unable to extract that special quality needed to win a title. Why, then, do we go back to preparation?

To me, personally, the proof that there is something very strange with my beloved Eels is in the pudding - the two Nathans are two of the most inspirational people you will ever meet on and off the field. Yet somehow that quality has not been enough to spur the side on to greater heights. Watching Hindy make 50 tackles and 20 hit-ups every week should, I would think, inspire every other bloke on that team to give 110%. I know when I played watching our little hooker captain busting a gut was bloody inspirational, and it made the other props and myself want to work even harder just so we could say we did our absolute best. But whereas Joey and BK and Buderus were able to inspire their 14 teammates to work cohesively in 2001 to win the title, the two Nathans have been unable to have the same effect on their club. Why? Obviously the Knights were too good in 2001 in the first half and the Storm too good in 2009. But IMO they weren't dominant the whole match - the first halves of each game was where the tones were set and the games were lost IMO.

Ultimately, all I have managed to do here is write a fairly long essay asking why our squad seemingly has this inability to step up in big games; why they can't nurture their nerves in a positive way to harness that energy to inspire victory. I don't know the answer, but to me the way everything has unfolded points to something not being right. Our lads are just as good as anyone else in the league in terms of skill and love for the club IMO. But do they have the same mental toughness? I can honestly say I am not sure. But to me, this is THE most important ingredient that needs to be put into place before this club can go anywhere. Obviously strong halves and whatnot are key, too. But without the mental toughness, you won't go far.

I dearly hope they prove me wrong. But the impression I have gotten from watching them for the last ten years (and what a magnificent ride it has been) is that they have some demons that need to be exorcised. Maybe it starts with us fans. I don't know. I'm trying to do my part, becoming a member and going to every game I can.
 

mrpwnd

Bench
Messages
2,640
To be fair, especially for a big event, players often have the mindset that really stuffs you over in the opening minutes, i.e. 'Should I go all out? Nah that'd take too much petrol from the tank' They start to over compensate for all of that and it really takes a notable toll on both the mental and physical state on the players, as we saw in all our respective opening minutes for our 01 and 09 grand finals and this is really where the coach really starts to factor in, the coach needs to be able to set the performance benchmark during that opening exchange and let the players shift into a stronger and more confident mindset, that IMO is the key behind momentum.

One thing I've always been critical over Parra about is our heavy reliance on momentum, you're right, we could absolutely smash teams during small segments of games and out of nowhere let in some of the softest tries/metres/linebreaks and suddenly we're on the backfoot, I think the bulldogs game this year(bandage bear cup) was a prime example of this where we were completely on top during the first half and looked to score 40+ points on them, come second half we came in with some of the most lazy defense and Ennis single-handedly ripped us apart.

I really hope that with Kearney's track record for successfully coaching players to perform better in crucial moments (World cup & four nations finals) he can instill the right mentality and hopefully we don't choke.
Now that the Dragons have got their premiership I hope we're not left behind as one of the teams with the longest premiership droughts and one of the biggest chokers of the modern era, it really frustrates me when we look so damn dominant at times and at the same time appear to be one of the most weakest teams.
 
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yy_cheng

Coach
Messages
18,734
Eelem. Of The 2001 players who have left, a number have won gf. I reckon in all those games we choked on we lacked leadership. I really reckon if pricey was the captain we wood at least some 1 of them
 

IFR33K

Coach
Messages
17,043
But I ask you - how can it be that a side can cope so poorly with pressure and expectation? We are not alone, of course. But we are regular exponents of the law of favourites losing regularly. The last time I genuinely remember the Eels being favourites in the regular season and performing to that standard was in 2005. You could argue a few times in 2009, but either way - it's far too few and far between to show any consistency. So it brings me back to the question that puzzles me - how can this team cope so badly with expectation and pressure?
.


There is only 1 answer for this. It aint Calyess, Hindmarsh or Burt, but 1 Brian Smith.

He is great for rebuilding, great for round 1 -26 footy, but absolutely sh*t house for September footy.

I recall him in an interview back in 2005, where he stated that the eels hadnt been in the finals for a couple of years, and that he was feeling very nervous. What a f**ked up thing to say. What would of all the younger players thought having heard him??????

Put simply, he'd be the first coach I'd pick for the regular season, but the last coach I'd pick for the finals.

Has there ever been a professional coach with a worse record then BS, of 4 GF looses and 0 wins???????
 

jono

Juniors
Messages
2,194
There is only 1 answer for this. It aint Calyess, Hindmarsh or Burt, but 1 Brian Smith.

He is great for rebuilding, great for round 1 -26 footy, but absolutely sh*t house for September footy.

Put simply, he'd be the first coach I'd pick for the regular season, but the last coach I'd pick for the finals.

Has there ever been a professional coach with a worse record then BS, of 4 GF looses and 0 wins???????

I was always a fan of Brian Smith ,a thorough professional who tried to leave nothing to chance. But I have to agree with your assessment of him being possibly the best regular season coach and rebuilder of a club in shambles but the worst coach in the post-season.
He was quoted after the chooks won the GF qualifier that this was his best chance of winning the comp. WTF ??? surely 2001 was the absolute bolter ,and he still f**ked that up by sending the boys out so highly strung out that they were virtually "gone in 60 seconds". Even in the GF qualifier vs the Broncs that year , it was still nail-biting stuff up until JT nailed those last two penalties.
He performed a miracle with the roosters this year , and I really had hoped they could win the GF for him , but I certainly had my hard-earned on St.Merge.
 
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God-King Dean

Immortal
Messages
46,614
The way Smith carried on during the Grand Final week this year was embarrassing.

Everyone said he looked relaxed; I thought he was losing it.

He was all jumpy, hugging players, making funny faces at the camera during the GF breakfast.

I've never seen a coach carry on the way he did.
 

Schiltzenberger

Juniors
Messages
416
I'm sick of people comparing 2001 and 2005, they were completely different.

2001 was a choke of epic proportions, just like '98 was.

2005 Hindy was out, there were several years there where we were like Newcastle when Johns was out. Back then if Hindy missed a game we usually lost.
Like the Storm in the GF when Smith was out, Manly still may have won but it wouldn't have been 40-0, and there'd be a good chance that the Storm would've won if Smith was there.
When we knew Hindy was out I actually assumed we would lose, I hoped the team would lift but they didn't.
I remember when he got injured in the game against Brisbane, half the crowd had their head in their hands and were almost giving up on the season right there.

Also, I'm in the Cayless was a weak captain camp.
He may have had the respect of the other players but that doesn't make him a good captain. So many times over the years when the team just wasn't making any effort he needed to be revving them up, but he rarely blew up at them. Sometimes he was standing in the in goal not even talking.
There are inspirational captains, motivational captains and tactical captains. Cayless was none of those, even if he was respected.
 
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boxhead

First Grade
Messages
5,958
Haven't seen this posted here, deserves a mention.

http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-league/league-news/tahu-and-eels-are-about-to-split-20101204-18kna.html

AUDITOR TO BLOCK INGLIS DEAL

NRL salary cap auditor Ian Schubert was at a Roosters gathering in Bondi on Friday and was telling his mates the Greg Inglis deal won't go through. He was saying Russell Crowe has made his job easy, whatever that means.

Well, the speculation from Ossie is that we are after Inglis but Ossie thinks the deal with Souths will go through. Apparently it won't now??
 

Eelementary

Post Whore
Messages
58,109
I think there may be something to the whole "mentality" aspect that I was raving about. Hell, even the Parramatta community is distancing itself from the Eels - I was proudly walking the streets of Parramatta last night looking for a feed wearing my Eels jersey and out of all the people that commented, only one said "Go Parra!" Everyone else made some snarky comment on how much they suck, or how can I go out in public wearing that, etc.

WTF? :crazy:
 

Captain BF

Juniors
Messages
1,974
I think there may be something to the whole "mentality" aspect that I was raving about. Hell, even the Parramatta community is distancing itself from the Eels - I was proudly walking the streets of Parramatta last night looking for a feed wearing my Eels jersey and out of all the people that commented, only one said "Go Parra!" Everyone else made some snarky comment on how much they suck, or how can I go out in public wearing that, etc.

WTF? :crazy:
It's interesting isn't it... I've always found that wearing the gear when we are losing or it's the off season and you get the narky "Why would you wear that?" comments and then when i wear the gear when we win it's always "Yep another typical band-wagon Parra supporter". It's given me the shiv's for many years now.

I, like many here, am a very proud Parra supporter every day of every year.
 

Eelementary

Post Whore
Messages
58,109
It's interesting isn't it... I've always found that wearing the gear when we are losing or it's the off season and you get the narky "Why would you wear that?" comments and then when i wear the gear when we win it's always "Yep another typical band-wagon Parra supporter". It's given me the shiv's for many years now.

I, like many here, am a very proud Parra supporter every day of every year.

Exactly!

I don't even live in Parramatta, but I would have thought that the residents would be psyched to have a club based in their suburb. And Parramatta is a historically important town, too.

And there aren't that many clubs that have a suburb in their name - Cronulla and Manly are two. But then you have things like the Gold Coast, Brisbane, New Zealand, etc. - they're representing an entire city or country! The Eels represent Parramatta. And yet so many of the residents there seem to dislike the club. It's really odd.
 

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