OT: Current Affairs and Politics

[Gronk]

Off the top of my head there's attitudes toward abortion and nationalism.

Abortion is faith based value, rather than socioeconomic. Nationalism, as opposed to patriotism, certainly does NOT become more prevalent in the well-to-do sector. Why do you say that ? Trump has been campaigning a policy against globalism and promoting a trajectory towards isolationism.

Tolerance is absolutely not a tribal value. Judging and controlling the behaviour of its members is how the tribe maintains the distinction between the in group and out groups. This is even true of modern ideological 'tribes'. An example is 'hate speech'. Speaking hate against people based on characteristics like race and gender is unacceptable in some cases yet encouraged in others. There is little tolerance within the tribe for anyone questioning this inconsistency.

Tolerance is imperative within the tribe. It’s the glue that keeps it together.

Tolerance and acceptance with other tribes is what makes a community. This is what makes Australia great. Overarching values (laws) which govern the community and acceptance of the nuances of values between tribe to tribe is the tolerance that we proudly do so well.

The encouragement of intolerance based on xenophobia, jealousy and envy is the poison that is leaching into the soil of our community. It is when merkins play the cultural relativism card that things get messy. They see their community through the filtered bias of their own tribe. They attempt to impose their values upon a diverse cultural composition.

Your whole argument that the less well-to-do have good reason to be intolerant. Originally it was an attack on the well-to-do who you purport to have loose values. Fluid values based on egocentric principles.

We tolerate intolerance very well in this country, but draw the line at hate and the unjust. This is where the less well-to-do get led astray. Fueled by zealots who idolize and crave dogma. They infiltrate tribe by misinformation that their way of life and values are under threat. The manipulation of the masses for ideological advantage.

 

[Poupou Escobar]

Abortion is faith based value, rather than socioeconomic. Nationalism, as opposed to patriotism, certainly does NOT become more prevalent in the well-to-do sector. Why do you say that ?

Why do you keep doing this? You keep misrepresenting me or making bad faith assumptions. I didn't say the rich are more nationalist than the poor, I said their attitudes are different. Obviously they are less nationalist.

If you weren't trying your best to twist my words and misrepresent me you wouldn't have made that assumption.

 

[Gronk]

Why do you keep doing this? You keep misrepresenting me or making bad faith assumptions. I didn't say the rich are more nationalist than the poor, I said their attitudes are different. Obviously they are less nationalist.

If you weren't trying your best to twist my words and misrepresent me you wouldn't have made that assumption.

You said that the well-to-do ABANDON core values of abortion. There are plenty of well-to-do who hold a faith based value of pro-life.

 

[Gary Gutful]

I didn't say the rich are more nationalist than the poor, I said their attitudes are different. Obviously they are less nationalist.

So what you are really saying is that we should all crack each other's heads open and feast on the goo inside?

 

[Gronk]

So what you are really saying is that we should all crack each other's heads open and feast on the goo inside?

Not advisable. Pretty sure that's how mad cow disease started.

 

[Poupou Escobar]

You said that the well-to-do ABANDON core values of abortion. There are plenty of well-to-do who hold a faith based value of pro-life.

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The wealthy are absolutely less religious than the poor. Is this even in dispute? Do you need a link to such esteemed journals as the NYT, WaPo or Wikipedia?

But if you're happy to discuss the philosophy of it, deciding an unborn human life is worth less than other human lives also requires faith. I say this as a person who is pro-choice (or anti-life, as the case may be). There is nothing more rational about our position on this.

 

[Gronk]

The wealthy are absolutely less religious than the poor. Is this even in dispute? Do you need a link to such esteemed journals as the NYT, WaPo or Wikipedia?

But if you're happy to discuss the philosophy of it, deciding an unborn human life is worth less than other human lives also requires faith. I say this as a person who is pro-choice (or anti-life, as the case may be). There is nothing more rational about our position on this.

Why so salty ? You said that the well-to-do abandon the core value of abortion. That's not true. It's a faith based value that crosses socioeconomic borders. Move on merkin.

 

[Poupou Escobar]

Abortion isn't a value, the worth of an unborn human life is what is valued by these people. Others (myself included) choose to believe, by faith, that such lives have less or zero value.

That's not salty, that's just me refusing to lie to myself. I understand this means I'm refusing to let others indulge the same lie, which naturally makes pro-choicers defensive.

 

[Gary Gutful]

I used to be pro-choice but I have shifted in recent years.

 

[Poupou Escobar]

Probably because you went broke!

 

[Bandwagon]

I used to be pro-choice but I have shifted in recent years.

Onto the fence?

 

[Gronk]

Abortion isn't a value, the worth of an unborn human life is what is valued by these people. Others (myself included) choose to believe, by faith, that such lives have less or zero value.

That's not salty, that's just me refusing to lie to myself. I understand this means I'm refusing to let others indulge the same lie, which naturally makes pro-choicers defensive.

I said you were salty because you were being a bitch with your NYT etc comment.

Re abortion, if you don't like them, don't have one. They are not compulsory.

 

[Gary Gutful]

Onto the fence?

Maybe. Maybe not.

 

[Gary Gutful]

I have lost count of the amount of people I have inseminated.

 

[Poupou Escobar]

I said you were salty because you were being a bitch with your NYT etc comment.

Re abortion, if you don't like them, don't have one. They are not compulsory.

You think people shouldn't stick their nose in when they see someone harming someone else? That's what you're expecting of the anti-choicers. You're asking them to accept murder.

I agree unborn humans shouldn't have human rights but why should others have to accept it?

 

[Bazal]

I have lost count of the amount of people I have inseminated.

So the black market IVF clinic is going well?

 

[Eelogical]

I have lost count of the amount of people I have inseminated.

A census of Logan should be able to answer that.

 

[Gronk]

You think people shouldn't stick their nose in when they see someone harming someone else? That's what you're expecting of the anti-choicers. You're asking them to accept murder.

I agree unborn humans shouldn't have human rights but why should others have to accept it?

You were talking a the fluidity of values yesterday. I find it ironic that many pro-lifers are pro-war or pro-capital punishment. Even more ironic is the bombing of family planning clinics by the mad merkin fringe.

Abortion as a concept is often contradiction or compromise of values. A fruit salad of values that form a principle, which may vary from time to time.

I understand why some may see abortion as a breach of human rights but as stated in Roe vs Wade (US), a woman also has rights to terminate her pregnancy before viability. This year in NSW we have the Reproductive Health Care Reform Bill which enshrines a similar principle. So it is law here, in the USA and in nearly all of the northern hemisphere.

The way I see it, the abortion debate is not unlike the pill testing debate. Kid are going to take pills. You might as well offer pill testing with face to face (deterrent) health advice with it. Likewise, in the 60’s they estimated that 1 in 5 pregnancies were terminated in *backyard* clinics, where women exposed themselves to medical outcomes uncertainty with pain and the risk of sterility or even death.

BTW I am also curious why pro-lifers are not outraged by the morning after pill. In Australia any female can purchase a single pill without prescription at any chemist. It effectively terminates the pregnancy up to 7 days after unprotected sex. Not a peep from anyone from the anti abortion lobby. How come ?

 

[Poupou Escobar]

You were talking a the fluidity of values yesterday. I find it ironic that many pro-lifers are pro-war or pro-capital punishment. Even more ironic is the bombing of family planning clinics by the mad merkin fringe.

I don't see the contradiction. That clump of cells is an innocent life, whereas 'evildoers' such as the enemy (in war) or abortion-facilitators are deserving of punishment. Again, it's not my position but I can see their internal consistency.

Obviously bombing health facilities (or any non-military target) is terrorism. It's not representative of pro-lifers any more than it is of Islamists or Muslims in general.

BTW I am also curious why pro-lifers are not outraged by the morning after pill. In Australia any female can purchase a single pill without prescription at any chemist. It effectively terminates the pregnancy up to 7 days after unprotected sex. Not a peep from anyone from the anti abortion lobby. How come ?

Probably because it's not taken after a confirmation of pregnancy. I see it more like birth control, even though it functions like an abortion. You can take the morning after pill as a precaution, whereas a termination takes place in no doubt as to whether conception occurred.

 

[Gronk]

I don't see the contradiction. That clump of cells is an innocent life, whereas 'evildoers' such as the enemy (in war) or abortion-facilitators are deserving of punishment. Again, it's not my position but I can see their internal consistency.

Evildoers ? Like a 19 yo who is doing his compulsory national service for his country ? He pays the price ? Kinda like the foetus in an aborted pregnancy I guess. Collateral damage.

Obviously bombing health facilities (or any non-military target) is terrorism. It's not representative of pro-lifers any more than it is of Islamists or Muslims in general.
Probably because it's not taken after a confirmation of pregnancy. I see it more like birth control, even though it functions like an abortion. You can take the morning after pill as a precaution, whereas a termination takes place in no doubt as to whether conception occurred.

outa mind outa sight on that pregnancy. If a woman was pregnant with the zygote in utero, then a consciousness objector to abortion should *never* dable with the MA pill through fear that it might be killing a human.