OT: Current Affairs and Politics

[Poupou Escobar]

Values are not fixed or mutually exclusive. There is no 10 Commandments of Values. The natives of North Sentinel Island will have different values than a Wall St Banker. The concept that the wealthy have fewer values is ridiculous. What you are trying to say, I think, is that values vary always. Ivan Milat vs Mother Theresa; Bill Gates vs Rupert Murdoch; their values have nothing to do with wealth nor does one have *fewer* values than the other.

Values are determined firstly by your beliefs. Environment (upbringing), spirituality, culture, education etc will impact your values. Rather than saying that values are things that you won’t accept, values are generally considered to be things that are important to you. Hence why values cannot be mutually exclusive.

Comparing my values to another’s is a worthy study, however my/your values are not wrong. They are merely different. What you can reflect upon is if my values align with the ethics of my tribe or perhaps my village.



Maslow created his little pyramid as a one size fits all aspirational guide to well being. His concept was that you get yourself sorted with the most primal of needs, as they are the bricks and mortar footings of your life wall. He said that you will need to satisfy these needs before you can move on to the next. So if you are hungry or thirsty or lack shelter, you wont be bothered with the other levels of the hierarchy.

You have applied his concept of safety to *wealth* within a village. However when you drill down on Maslow, he really just means security for yourself and tribe, protection from the elements (and elephants) , law and order, stability and freedom from fear.

So once you have the most basic of needs fulfilled, then you can focus on belonging, love, intimacy and community.

Once you have that you can then seek improvement of self esteem and reputation. Ultimately self-actualisation so you become the best version of self.

There are no failures with Maslow because the aspiration is ongoing. You may not get there until you are 60 or indeed you may never achieve contentment of self. As one merkin wisely said, it’s not about the goal, but the journey.

That's right, we all know how Maslow's heirarchy works. We have Google.

Therefore we know security is near the bottom. Merkins without money are aware of their lack of individual security. This is why they cling to tribalism, and the proscriptive shared values of their tribe. These values are often at odds with the more modern value of tolerance.

 

[Gronk]

That's right, we all know how Maslow's heirarchy works. We have Google.

Therefore we know security is near the bottom. Merkins without money are aware of their lack of individual security. This is why they cling to tribalism, and the proscriptive shared values of their tribe. These values are often at odds with the more modern value of tolerance.

Rubbish. Middle America’s unemployment rate is like 3.5%. They have plenty of *security*, yet they are intolerant as f**k. Please go on.

 

[Poupou Escobar]

Having a low paying job doesn't make anyone feel secure. Maybe they need to get off the opioids?

 

[Bandwagon]

Yeah, I'd have to agree there, having a full time job that pays so well you need a second job to make ends meet aint exactly ideal.

 

[Gronk]

Having a low paying job doesn't make anyone feel secure.

Nope

It’s time to bust the myth: Most Trump voters were not working class.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...yth-most-trump-voters-were-not-working-class/

Trump Voters Driven by Fear of Losing Status, Not Economic Anxiety

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/24/us/politics/trump-economic-anxiety.html

 

[hindy111]

Security would be owning your own home and having money up your sleeve.
Or paying a home and a high paying job with a good education.

 

[Poupou Escobar]

Nope

It’s time to bust the myth: Most Trump voters were not working class.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...yth-most-trump-voters-were-not-working-class/

Trump Voters Driven by Fear of Losing Status, Not Economic Anxiety

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/24/us/politics/trump-economic-anxiety.html

What's the difference? Losing what you've got hurts no matter who you are.

Anyway, everyone in America thinks they're middle class. 'Working class' is shorthand for welfare class over there, and few people want to admit to being in that boat.

 

[Poupou Escobar]

Security would be owning your own home and having money up your sleeve.
Or paying a home and a high paying job with a good education.

Nah, working in a steel mill or some shit means you're middle class, at least until the steel mill relocates to Bangladesh.

 

[Gronk]

What's the difference? Losing what you've got hurts no matter who you are.

Anyway, everyone in America thinks they're middle class. 'Working class' is shorthand for welfare class over there, and few people want to admit to being in that boat.

 

[Poupou Escobar]

You're the one who claims middle America is doing as well as the coastal elites, citing articles in the NYT and WaPo. I disagree but even if your argument were true I showed how it doesn't matter.

 

[Gronk]

You're the one who claims middle America is doing as well as the coastal elites, citing articles in the NYT and WaPo. I disagree but even if your argument were true I showed how it doesn't matter.

Ok let’s rewind a bit. Your hypothesis was that people who live on struggle street have good reason to have flexible values and tolerance. The two articles rebutted that premise and shows that the support for Trump runs deeper than your superficial driver being wealth.

i say their intolerance is ingrained, reinforced and condoned by the republican party and their media arm, Murdoch. Trump indeed has motivated the long held undercurrent of bias hate and racism to move from the margins to the mainstream.

The same premise can be applied here with the far right in politics, legitimising and normalising intolerances with gaslighting the masses, convincing them that their status is under threat.

 

[Gary Gutful]

i say their intolerance is ingrained, reinforced and condoned by the republican party and their media arm, Murdoch. Trump indeed has motivated the long held undercurrent of bias hate and racism to move from the margins to the mainstream.

The same premise can be applied here with the far right in politics, legitimising and normalising intolerances with gaslighting the masses, convincing them that their status is under threat.

Definitely some truth in that.

 

[Bazal]

Definitely some truth in that.

Yeah there is, but Gronk's assumption is that the intolerance comes purely from being intolerant, not from legitimate social factors.

Which is hilariously incorrect

 

[Gronk]

Yeah there is, but Gronk's assumption is that the intolerance comes purely from being intolerant, not from legitimate social factors.

Which is hilariously incorrect

Well instead of taking pot shots from the grassy knoll, perhaps you might expand ?

 

[Poupou Escobar]

Ok let’s rewind a bit. Your hypothesis was that people who live on struggle street have good reason to have flexible values and tolerance.

No I said the well-to-do display these traits.

The two articles rebutted that premise and shows that the support for Trump runs deeper than your superficial driver being wealth.

i say their intolerance is ingrained, reinforced and condoned by the republican party and their media arm, Murdoch. Trump indeed has motivated the long held undercurrent of bias hate and racism to move from the margins to the mainstream.

The same premise can be applied here with the far right in politics, legitimising and normalising intolerances with gaslighting the masses, convincing them that their status is under threat.

Except you've overlooked that this applies all over the world, and not just in the USA. Poorer people in every culture on the planet are tribal and conservative. The Republican party and Fox News have nothing to do with it.

This stuff is all grass roots, with media organisations and political parties filling demand. It's childish to blame Rupert Murdoch or Donald Trump. This has been going on since long before either of them.

 

[Bazal]

Well instead of taking pot shots from the grassy knoll, perhaps you might expand ?

I already have, pages ago.

 

[Gronk]

No I said the well-to-do display these traits.

No surprise that we are going around in circles here. Ok so now the well-to-do have loose values. Who are the well-to-do by your reckoning from a socioeconomic standpoint and what evidence to you have that they have no conscience ?

Except you've overlooked that this applies all over the world, and not just in the USA. Poorer people in every culture on the planet are tribal and conservative. The Republican party and Fox News have nothing to do with it.

This stuff is all grass roots, with media organisations and political parties filling demand. It's childish to blame Rupert Murdoch or Donald Trump. This has been going on since long before either of them.

Trump was the context of this whole conversation. Don't @ me for bringing up him and the media that protect and fuel it.

 

[Poupou Escobar]

No surprise that we are going around in circles here. Ok so now the well-to-do have loose values. Who are the well-to-do by your reckoning from a socioeconomic standpoint and what evidence to you have that they have no conscience ?

It's a bit dishonest of you to imply I claimed they have no conscience. They just have more fluid values. The evidence is that progressive values are driven by the elites - members of the establishment have very different values today than they did 50, 100 or 200 years ago. Meanwhile poor people are very slow to change in this area.

Trump was the context of this whole conversation. Don't @ me for bringing up him and the media that protect and fuel it.

My point is that Trump is not the cause but another symptom. The bloke himself isn't even conservative. His values are as fluid as anybody's. However he wasn't elected for who he is but for what he promised.

 

[Gronk]

It's a bit dishonest of you to imply I claimed they have no conscience. They just have more fluid values. The evidence is that progressive values are driven by the elites - members of the establishment have very different values today than they did 50, 100 or 200 years ago. Meanwhile poor people are very slow to change in this area.

Just because you say it, does not make it fact. What core values do the well-to-do abandon, compared to the less well off ? And how does this link to the original concept of tolerance, with tolerance actually being a core value of many and promoted by the tribe ?

My point is that Trump is not the cause but another symptom. The bloke himself isn't even conservative. His values are as fluid as anybody's. However he wasn't elected for who he is but for what he promised.

Well we agree on that.

 

[Poupou Escobar]

Just because you say it, does not make it fact. What core values do the well-to-do abandon, compared to the less well off ?

Off the top of my head there's attitudes toward abortion and nationalism.

And how does this link to the original concept of tolerance, with tolerance actually being a core value of many and promoted by the tribe ?

Tolerance is absolutely not a tribal value. Judging and controlling the behaviour of its members is how the tribe maintains the distinction between the in group and out groups. This is even true of modern ideological 'tribes'. An example is 'hate speech'. Speaking hate against people based on characteristics like race and gender is unacceptable in some cases yet encouraged in others. There is little tolerance within the tribe for anyone questioning this inconsistency.