20 teams and 20 rounds

[Dingo_dan]

If you have ever been to Darwin you'd realise how stupid the idea of an NRL club would be. It really surprises people just how small Darwin really is. Townsville is the smallest market in the nrl with 180k people. But you Cairns and Mackay are are few hours drive away north and south, with heaps of Good sized towns in between. With Darwin you have Katherine a 3 hour drive away, but Katherine has just 10k people, And it's a further 8 hours drive past that before you find another town with over a tthousand people.

 

[MugaB]

I think your kidding yourself if you think a cairns, or any other new team, wouldn’t go out and sign 30 established nrl and SL players fofor seasonrseason 1! Gold Coast has a strong grass roots, how many of their 2007 squad were signed from there?

Of course it will take time for wa j rs to become first graders but unless they have a better patheway and an nrl team to aspire to they never will. So far since our elite jnr program started 5 years ago we have produced around 25 Q’land/nsw Cup players and 3 nrl/SL first graders. Next year we will start a Under 20’s side in nsw Comp. It’s all building for a 2023 admission hopefully.

I used cairns as an example, but if they could get 30+ nrl or sl players good on them, of course thats the goal, but unlikely, so qld cup local players would help there.
gold coast titans had that junior base i was talking about, and they got themselves a few marquee players, so we agree there, but perth might not get upto 10 first grade players, but then what, where are they going to pull the last 20 from, are those 24 clubs in WA competitive enough to have 20 players ready in season one?

In regards to darwin, I'd like to think we could try an NRL team, but most likely like perth or Adelaide, would need to get help in a relocated team, again a strong junior base in these areas dictate their support, success and viability.
Cowboys in townsville is 25 years strong now, and they've been in a rugby league stronghold area, first year they came in 1995 =wooden spoon, but averaged 21k in attendances.
Thats great, regardless of the form they had, they got people showing up, back then tho paytv wasnt as big as it is now, but great anyway, 3rd season (super league) spoon again, attendances dropped to about 17k, still good, better than most other teams, but super league might have been a factor.
Cowboys hadn't made the finals till 2004, 10 years later, and a grand final till 2005, and not won till 2015 another 10 years after that, it takes time for teams to have success, luck and a johnothan thurston helps too.
Now compare all that to Melbourne Storms success especially in an AFL centric city,
Do we want to wait for 20 years for perth to get any success? Finals, Premiership.
Im happy for the cowboys and storm and any new franchise to prosper, but in the conditions that perth has with West Coast, Fremantle, perth glory, and maybe whats left of the western Force, perth Pirates needs to start strong, not wooden spoon it, id rather a relocation to start that, then fighting other codes for 20+years, super league ruined perth reds, had they still survived, im sure theyd be contenders now, just like the cowboys have been the past decade

 

[Perth Red]

I used cairns as an example, but if they could get 30+ nrl or sl players good on them, of course thats the goal, but unlikely, so qld cup local players would help there.
gold coast titans had that junior base i was talking about, and they got themselves a few marquee players, so we agree there, but perth might not get upto 10 first grade players, but then what, where are they going to pull the last 20 from, are those 24 clubs in WA competitive enough to have 20 players ready in season one?

In regards to darwin, I'd like to think we could try an NRL team, but most likely like perth or Adelaide, would need to get help in a relocated team, again a strong junior base in these areas dictate their support, success and viability.
Cowboys in townsville is 25 years strong now, and they've been in a rugby league stronghold area, first year they came in 1995 =wooden spoon, but averaged 21k in attendances.
Thats great, regardless of the form they had, they got people showing up, back then tho paytv wasnt as big as it is now, but great anyway, 3rd season (super league) spoon again, attendances dropped to about 17k, still good, better than most other teams, but super league might have been a factor.
Cowboys hadn't made the finals till 2004, 10 years later, and a grand final till 2005, and not won till 2015 another 10 years after that, it takes time for teams to have success, luck and a johnothan thurston helps too.
Now compare all that to Melbourne Storms success especially in an AFL centric city,
Do we want to wait for 20 years for perth to get any success? Finals, Premiership.
Im happy for the cowboys and storm and any new franchise to prosper, but in the conditions that perth has with West Coast, Fremantle, perth glory, and maybe whats left of the western Force, perth Pirates needs to start strong, not wooden spoon it, id rather a relocation to start that, then fighting other codes for 20+years, super league ruined perth reds, had they still survived, im sure theyd be contenders now, just like the cowboys have been the past decade

Weird you seem to have contradicted your argument by using cowboys who took years for success despite a strong jnr base and Storm who were instant successes despite no jnr base? Bodes well for Perth if that’s your argument lol.

 

[beave]

Weird you seem to have contradicted your argument by using cowboys who took years for success despite a strong jnr base and Storm who were instant successes despite no jnr base? Bodes well for Perth if that’s your argument lol.

Melb were successful straight off the bat due to being gifted a gun squad from day one from all the left over players from the defunct SL clubs (mariners,reds) and coming into the comp when the utter bullshit period was on the way out. Melb needed to be successful from the start, I get that but it was to the detriment of my team as we were from a league heartland and had great support.

It’s actually a miracle NQ still has a team looking back at it though, if it weren’t for our amazing crowds and news limited, we were gone. We signed some GC reserve graders for 1995 due to Grant Bell coming from there, some unknown local talentand a few cast off randoms. The only marquee players were Martin Bella and Johnathan Davies. Both well and truly past their prime. 1996 saw an improvement with a few signings and overall squad familiarisation but it all blew up in 1997 when SL and Sheens brought all his raider rejects with him and the other over paid has been, the focus on nuturing local talent was thrown in the bin which took years for the club to mend bridges with the local leagues in Mackay, Cairns and Rocky.

 

[beave]

re Darwin: as someone who has lived there for sporadic periods, there is no chance an NRL could survive there.

Trying to use NQ as a proof of concept model is ridiculous because it’s comparing apples and undies. The reason Townsville/NQ works is the fact Tvl is central for about 400k other people (ontop of its own 180k)within a 4 hours drive. Darwin does not have this luxury. Townsville is also 60-70k bigger.

 

[Perth Red]

Interestingly its corporate support that tends to be the make or break of clubs financial year. Revenue from fans tends to be fairly consistent in memberships/gate takings and merchandise sales. Corporate sponsorship makes up a fairly hefty chunk of club revenue (around 25% plus in a lot of cases) and it only takes the loss of one or two key sponsors to create a big black hole in the budget.

Point is as important as fans are sponsorship is equally, and financially more, important

 

[MugaB]

Weird you seem to have contradicted your argument by using cowboys who took years for success despite a strong jnr base and Storm who were instant successes despite no jnr base? Bodes well for Perth if that’s your argument lol.

No arguement, just pointing out, those clubs, and how they have gone about things, and what i think would suit a perth franchise, Cowboys were built a in a rugby league area/state, Storm built in an AFL state, Perth and Adelaide are moreso AFL states, building a team in those two cities, would need to have the storms upbringing to be successful

 

[Perth Red]

No arguement, just pointing out, those clubs, and how they have gone about things, and what i think would suit a perth franchise, Cowboys were built a in a rugby league area/state, Storm built in an AFL state, Perth and Adelaide are moreso AFL states, building a team in those two cities, would need to have the storms upbringing to be successful

Except WA does have a half decent jnr base which the Storm didn’t. We probably sit in the middle of your examples.

 

[MugaB]

You're probably right, but i still dont see a competitive 20-30 man squad unless another team relocates there, or 3 clubs fold to create a vacuum for perth to swallow, like what happened with Melbourne storm, when they entered, i hope im wrong tho, coz if perth franchise is successful without the relocation or other help in its first few seasons (finals or closer), it will mean rugby league can expand anywhere with the right conditions, regardless of having AFL/RU/A-L teams in the same area. It would be great to see a 20+ team comp.
And for those who say there's not enough talent to fill more teams, thats crap, coz more clubs will beget more players and will raise participants, to filter into more talent, or clubs will just buy from the penrith farm like roosters and sharks do

 

[Dakink]

I live in Darwin, am a massive league fan and can guarantee that an NRL team based in Darwin will absolutely fail.

There is neither the corporate support or population here. Yes league has a large amount of support but is second to AFL.

If you are happy with a team that is constantly bottom table, struggling financially and with a sub 10k crowd average go right ahead.

The Govt here are flat broke so you can rule any support out there.

 

[flippikat]

I live in Darwin, am a massive league fan and can guarantee that an NRL team based in Darwin will absolutely fail.

There is neither the corporate support or population here. Yes league has a large amount of support but is second to AFL.

If you are happy with a team that is constantly bottom table, struggling financially and with a sub 10k crowd average go right ahead.

The Govt here are flat broke so you can rule any support out there.

Yeah. As I suspected. I think the natural place for NT is a game or two a year (kinda like Parra's deal), and maybe aspiring for a team in NSW Cup or Qld Cup.. or whatever 2nd-tier competition takes shape.

IMO the same applies for PNG, and Pacific Island teams - maybe they could do with a game a year of NRL (or a trial), but not prorities to have their own NRL team. The economics just don't stack up.

The NRL has bigger fish to fry: Brisbane 2, Perth, Adelaide, NZ 2 at the very top of the list. Then Brisbane 3, and either a 2nd Melbourne team (population size makes it appealing) or 2nd Perth team (late TV slot every week makes THAT appealing).

Of course, that takes us to 22 or 23 teams if we keep every club we have right now!

 

[Timmah]

I don't think it's as cut and dried as "it simply won't work". There are models under which it could work, but ultimately it would take a lot of hard work and doing things to near perfection over a sustained period to make it a success.

Ultimately, you'll want Darwin to be somewhere that clubs take a handful of games - whether that's one club taking multiple games, or more clubs following Parra's lead in taking one game there.

 

[Dakink]

I don't think it's as cut and dried as "it simply won't work". There are models under which it could work, but ultimately it would take a lot of hard work and doing things to near perfection over a sustained period to make it a success.

Ultimately, you'll want Darwin to be somewhere that clubs take a handful of games - whether that's one club taking multiple games, or more clubs following Parra's lead in taking one game there.

Living in darwin, there is support for a number of games each year but definately not a top level team.

 

[toomuchsoup]

Pointless post, but this is what my ideal comp would look like in an alternate universe where the NRL is the most popular sport in Australia and there’s the resources, support and the talent pool to warrent 24 teams, 23 rounds playing every team once. Top 10 make the finals

1 Adelaide Rams (Red + Blue + Gold)
2 Auckland Warriors
3 Brisbane Broncos
4 Brisbane Bulls (Black + Beige)
5 Canberra Raiders
6 Canterbury Bankstown Bulldogs
7 Central Coast Bears
8 Cronulla Sharks
9 Gold Coast Titans
10 Manly Warringah Sea Eagles
11 Melbourne Falcons (Yellow + Black)
12 Melbourne Storm
13 Newcastle Knights
14 North Brisbane Dolphins(Red + White)
15 North Queensland Cowboys
16 Parramatta Eels
17 Penrith Panthers
18 South Brisbane Jets (Green + White)
19 South Sydney Rabbitohs
20 St George Illawarra Dragons
21 Sydney Roosters
22 Wellington Orcas (Black + Grey)
23 West Coast Pirates
24 Western Sydney Tigers

 

[MugaB]

Pointless post, but this is what my ideal comp would look like in an alternate universe where the NRL is the most popular sport in Australia and there’s the resources, support and the talent pool to warrent 24 teams, 23 rounds playing every team once. Top 10 make the finals

1 Adelaide Rams (Red + Blue + Gold)
2 Auckland Warriors
3 Brisbane Broncos
4 Brisbane Bulls (Black + Beige)
5 Canberra Raiders
6 Canterbury Bankstown Bulldogs
7 Central Coast Bears
8 Cronulla Sharks
9 Gold Coast Titans
10 Manly Warringah Sea Eagles
11 Melbourne Falcons (Yellow + Black)
12 Melbourne Storm
13 Newcastle Knights
14 North Brisbane Dolphins(Red + White)
15 North Queensland Cowboys
16 Parramatta Eels
17 Penrith Panthers
18 South Brisbane Jets (Green + White)
19 South Sydney Rabbitohs
20 St George Illawarra Dragons
21 Sydney Roosters
22 Wellington Orcas (Black + Grey)
23 West Coast Pirates
24 Western Sydney Tigers

I like this list especially all the extra brisbane teams, quick question with Brisbane Bulls are they sharing suncorp or is it a team for the western corridor or elsewhere?
And Melbourne Falcons, where abouts will that be? or is that a rival team using the same melbourne home ground

 

[toomuchsoup]

I like this list especially all the extra brisbane teams, quick question with Brisbane Bulls are they sharing suncorp or is it a team for the western corridor or elsewhere?
And Melbourne Falcons, where abouts will that be? or is that a rival team using the same melbourne home ground

Yeah, Bulls would share Suncorp and be direct rivals of the Broncos. I’m not very familiar with the geographic spread of Brisbane, but I figured the Jets is a great team name, their colours aren’t prominent in the NRL, so they could cover the south/outer south of Brisbane. Whether they would be callled south Brisbane, south Queensland, western Brisbane or just Ipswich, I’m not sure. Their direct rivals would be the dolphins. Once again, could be called Moreton Bay, North Brisbane, Redcliffe or Sunshine Coast, I’m not sure.

Falcons could go either way. Maybe a Geelong based club that plays half games out west and half at AAMI. But yeah, obviously to create a hometown rivalry with the storm.

Adelaide Rams. I’m probably just being nostalgic, but I love the mascot. To me, Rams is a very ‘rugby league’ style club name.

Wellington Orcas. Also not very familiar with the layout of NZ and wether the second NZ team should represent just Wellington or the whole South Island or the whole of NZ while the warriors go back to just Auckland. I’m not sold on the Orcas name either, but it is unique and I haven’t heard any other good suggestions.

Once again, this is all just a fantasy and I can’t ever imagine seeing the comp with this many teams. We can only dream

 

[TheFrog]

24 Western Sydney Tigers

Didn't the Panthers register the name Western Sydney a decade or so ago?

 

[MugaB]

Didn't the Panthers register the name Western Sydney a decade or so ago?

Since they're my team, ill let you in on a little secret, they've dropped the name penrith off the logo for quite sometime now, yet we all still refered to them as penrith all the time, still carry websites for penrithpanther.com, etc still brand things with Penrith on it, but the logo branding is simply "Panthers" as in either penrith or bathurst or.... whatever area that may be in the future.
I'm pretty sure they are keen on representing a much bigger area west of Sydney, which currently stretches from st.marys to bathurst and possibly upto dubbo, if one day they decide to use that name they can, i would use GWS, Greater Western Sydney it would be more fitting

 

[TheFrog]

Since they're my team, ill let you in on a little secret, they've dropped the name penrith off the logo for quite sometime now, yet we all still refered to them as penrith all the time, still carry websites for penrithpanther.com, etc still brand things with Penrith on it, but the logo branding is simply "Panthers" as in either penrith or bathurst or.... whatever area that may be in the future.
I'm pretty sure they are keen on representing a much bigger area west of Sydney, which currently stretches from st.marys to bathurst and possibly upto dubbo, if one day they decide to use that name they can, i would use GWS, Greater Western Sydney it would be more fitting

Pretty poorly kept secret of course. But what surprises me is that they don't take games to Orange or Dubbo in alternative years. They've made an agreement for 10 years with Bathurst (which has recently had lighting installed which would have been paid for by the local council) of course, and Orange is just up the road, maybe this is down the track. Drove through the area at the weekend, is it Mudgee that has St George Illawarra banners all over town? Maybe we have competition in the area.

By the way I think GWS is an AFLism. I would stick with Western Sydney if thats the way it goes.

 

[MugaB]

Pretty poorly kept secret of course. But what surprises me is that they don't take games to Orange or Dubbo in alternative years. They've made an agreement for 10 years with Bathurst (which has recently had lighting installed which would have been paid for by the local council) of course, and Orange is just up the road, maybe this is down the track. Drove through the area at the weekend, is it Mudgee that has St George Illawarra banners all over town? Maybe we have competition in the area.

By the way I think GWS is an AFLism. I would stick with Western Sydney if thats the way it goes.

Yes St.George take games to mudgee every year, the grounds are slowly getting upgraded at bathurst, but seeing tho only one game gets played there a year, i don't think theres a rush, i'd like to see more games taken further west atleast 1 in each of those towns per year eventually, maybe 2 in bathurst, and 8-10 at penrith (with trials included)
GWS Great Western Sydney then
Screw AwFL