20 teams and 20 rounds

[MugaB]

Yeah im cool with seeing a darwin team, they have had games there in the past, but whether 25 rounds is sustainable is another question, but if townsville in 1995 can have team compete why not darwin, or any other city in qld, as the state is about to hit a population of 5 million
Its important to create more teams in that area that would support it, so cairns, CQ, north and west brisbane should be prioritized over a perth team, that really doesn't have a junior base to build off of, unless a sydney based team relocated to perth

 

[Perth Red]

Yeah im cool with seeing a darwin team, they have had games there in the past, but whether 25 rounds is sustainable is another question, but if townsville in 1995 can have team compete why not darwin, or any other city in qld, as the state is about to hit a population of 5 million
Its important to create more teams in that area that would support it, so cairns, CQ, north and west brisbane should be prioritized over a perth team, that really doesn't have a junior base to build off of, unless a sydney based team relocated to perth

How will a Sydney team moving to perth increase the WA jnr base?

Our jnr base is growing nicely at a time many heartland areas are seeing a decrease in registered players. Do you even know we now have 24 jnr RL clubs in WA? A massive increase over the last 6 years. Considering the Sydney Roosters have 4 jnr clubs in their region I think WA is going ok for an afl state don’t you?

https://thewest.com.au/news/regional/rugby-league-body-eyes-regional-expansion-ng-b881037210z

https://thewest.com.au/news/albany-...-junior-game-in-great-southern-ng-b881050789z

 

[MugaB]

How will a Sydney team moving to perth increase the WA jnr base?

Our jnr base is growing nicely at a time many heartland areas are seeing a decrease in registered players. Do you even know we now have 24 jnr RL clubs in WA? A massive increase over the last 6 years. Considering the Sydney Roosters have 4 jnr clubs in their region I think WA is going ok for an afl state don’t you?

https://thewest.com.au/news/regional/rugby-league-body-eyes-regional-expansion-ng-b881037210z

https://thewest.com.au/news/albany-...-junior-game-in-great-southern-ng-b881050789z

What i meant by junior base was an Nrl team would need players to draw from to create their 30 man squad, i dont see that happening in perth straight away, it would be great tho, but if a franchise started in cairns for example, theyd be pulling from the northern pride or Png hunters aswell as other qld cup teams, perth would have that 24 teams you mentioned, but wouldn't have the calibre players to rival other nrl squads would have, having that experience is what theyd lack in the first 2-3 years, it takes time to build from scratch, i want to see perth do well, but not get the spoon first year because they lacked depth by not having that strong junior base behind it,
If a sydney team did move there the first few years would have the squad as well as 24 teams to draw from, and be competitive, eventually in that 2-3 years perth would be better for it, Melbourne are a good example of how a squad came together quickly, whilst drawing from the bears and qld cup sides when they formed (it helped that the squad formed from the 3 teams that got dropped tho) but they were Melbourne. not a relocated team, unless 2-3 teams get cut to form perth i don't see it being successful, not straight away.
The roosters are an 108 years old, having 4 junior teams is plenty, plus the north sydney bears are now feeding them also, aswell as politis's marquee players, you'd want a better example than them

 

[Perth Red]

I think your kidding yourself if you think a cairns, or any other new team, wouldn’t go out and sign 30 established nrl and SL players fofor seasonrseason 1! Gold Coast has a strong grass roots, how many of their 2007 squad were signed from there?

Of course it will take time for wa j rs to become first graders but unless they have a better patheway and an nrl team to aspire to they never will. So far since our elite jnr program started 5 years ago we have produced around 25 Q’land/nsw Cup players and 3 nrl/SL first graders. Next year we will start a Under 20’s side in nsw Comp. It’s all building for a 2023 admission hopefully.

 

[Timmah]

I think your kidding yourself if you think a cairns, or any other new team, wouldn’t go out and sign 30 established nrl and SL players fofor seasonrseason 1! Gold Coast has a strong grass roots, how many of their 2007 squad were signed from there?

Of course it will take time for wa j rs to become first graders but unless they have a better patheway and an nrl team to aspire to they never will. So far since our elite jnr program started 5 years ago we have produced around 25 Q’land/nsw Cup players and 3 nrl/SL first graders. Next year we will start a Under 20’s side in nsw Comp. It’s all building for a 2023 admission hopefully.

Been attending Stallion's school of spelling & grammar?

But in all seriousness, where are these 30 established players gonna come from? Is it worth weakening the competition if the talent depth isn't there to support it?

 

[Perth Red]

haha, just aiming for the current standard on here lol

Well that is debatable, some would say a short term hit in strength across the current 16 teams is worth the long term gain of having 2 new expansion clubs in the NRL. What would the overall impact of losing 2- 4 players from your 30 man squad be across the comp I wonder?

If it really is a concern than you could mitigate the risk if the NRL wanted to by offering concessions to the new clubs for first 5 years for players signed outside of the current NRL registered player pool. This would encourage them to go raiding Union, SL and take some risks on some quality second tier players.

Hypothetically if Perth kicked off next season I've put together this starting squad that would draw little from current NRL clubs. do you think A) they would be competitive and B) it would have a significant negative impact on the quality of the rest of the competition?
I've given it a NZ flavour to appeal the hordes of Kiwis in perth.

1. Ben Barba (SL)
2. Ryan Hall (SL)
3. Waqa Blake (Penrith)
4. Curtis Rhona (RU)
5. Semi Radrada (RU)
6. Blake Austin (SL)
7. Shaun Johnson (Cronulla)
8. George Burgess (Souths)
9. Issac Luke (Warriors)
10. James Graham (Dragons) (C)
11. Kane Linnett (SL)
12. Trent Merrin (SL)
13. Adam Milner (SL)
14. Konrad Hurrel (SL)
15. Aiden Tolman (Bulldogs)
16. Timothy Lomai (PNG)
17. Jesse Bromwich (Melbourne)

 

[Timmah]

A) yes, obviously
B) yes, hence the issue

 

[Perth Red]

Why do you think B? Warriors have lost Johnson and Sharks went ok last year without him. Centres aren't hard to replace for penrith. Melbourne seem to be able to produce forwards at will. Warriors have a very good back up hooker waiting for a chance. Admittedly losing Burgess and Graham would be impactors but wont be the end of the world for Souths or Dragons. 9 NRL clubs wouldn't be affected at all. How much of a negative impact do you think this hypothetical movement of 7 NRL players would really have across the competition on a scale of 1-10 with 1 being no impact and 10 being devastating?

 

[madunit]

Darwin has a Population of 120k no major corporate base and no stadium. What makes you think it is a good spot for an nrl team?

If those factors were a recipe for success why have we got clubs struggling financially despite having corporate bases all around them and bigger populations in much bigger cities?

Stadiums are getting knocked down and rebuilt in Sydney like it's a piece of piss. Perth built a stadium. No reason why Darwin can't build one too.

It'll be a good base because it will see in an influx of Aboriginal players aligning with Rugby League, and not AFL. It also offers a difference in time zone, It's a genuine new market, it could also help accommodate Queensland players looking for another club.

I see no value in a second Brisbane side. You don't 'expand' into an existing and current market. That's not expansion.

 

[Perth Red]

If those factors were a recipe for success why have we got clubs struggling financially despite having corporate bases all around them and bigger populations in much bigger cities?

Stadiums are getting knocked down and rebuilt in Sydney like it's a piece of piss. Perth built a stadium. No reason why Darwin can't build one too.

It'll be a good base because it will see in an influx of Aboriginal players aligning with Rugby League, and not AFL. It also offers a difference in time zone, It's a genuine new market, it could also help accommodate Queensland players looking for another club.

I see no value in a second Brisbane side. You don't 'expand' into an existing and current market. That's not expansion.

If current clubs cant make ends meet With population and corporates how do you think Darwin will without them? The odds of Darwin getting a $200mill stadium are slim to none. The Territory Govt has little revenue and certainly not that sort of spare change. Best hope would be a PNG/Darwin hybrid but even that would be a pipe dream for a vast array of reasons. Simply isnt the people or the money for a $25million a year professional sports club.

 

[madunit]

If current clubs cant make ends meet With population and corporates how do you think Darwin will without them? The odds of Darwin getting a $200mill stadium are slim to none. The Territory Govt has little revenue and certainly not that sort of spare change. Best hope would be a PNG/Darwin hybrid but even that would be a pipe dream for a vast array of reasons. Simply isnt the people or the money for a $25million a year professional sports club.

A well run club will survive anywhere.

Too many NRL clubs are run like shit.

If done properly, a team in Darwin could well work.

They don't even need a huge stadium, Add a second grandstand to TIO and you'll have a 20k capacity, won't cost as much as building an entire stadium.

 

[The Great Dane]

If those factors were a recipe for success why have we got clubs struggling financially despite having corporate bases all around them and bigger populations in much bigger cities?

Competition...

To many clubs in to small an area all fighting over the same resources.

Darwin on the other hand doesn't have enough resources to support even one of those clubs without outside influences backing the club (i.e. a rich owner/s willing to prop it up).

I see no value in a second Brisbane side. You don't 'expand' into an existing and current market. That's not expansion.

Except that is expansion cause you are expanding to fully utilise an under utilised market, i.e. you're expanding you're ability to serve customers in the market that you fail to serve with only one franchise cause the supply outweighs the demand.

 

[madunit]

Darwin is a bit smaller than Townsville.

I don't think resources is an issue. Having an entire state supporting the side because they don't have a national team in any competition makes their market bigger.

I don't buy a word of your theory on a second Brisbane team. South Queensland went there and went broke in short time. The Titans are the umpteenth incarnation of a side just down the road and they have been hampered by financial misery for nearly all of their joint existences.

Titans showed us that revisiting past failures in QLD are a big chance of repeating past failures.

 

[The Great Dane]

A well run club will survive anywhere.

Too many NRL clubs are run like shit.

So the New England Patriots could survive in Dubbo and still be competitive on and off the field!?

Absolutely not!

If done properly, a team in Darwin could well work.

Even if you saw an absolutely huge supporters base (like an average attendance of 20k+ which for the size of the market would basically be unheard of in Australia) they'd still be on a shoe string budget compared to the other clubs, cause there simply isn't the advertising or corporate interest in the NT to make up the difference.

They'd basically face all the problems that the Raiders face in attracting sponsors and corporate support but compounded by an order of magnitude. In the best case scenario it'd be an extremely risky club that'd always be teetering on the edge of bankruptcy.

Because the operating costs are lower I can potentially see a second tier club (especially if there was both government and NRL support), but an NRL club is a pipe dream.

 

[madunit]

So the New England Patriots could survive in Dubbo and still be competitive on and off the field!?

Absolutely not!

What?

I'm not proposing taking a team OUT of a country where it has strong roots and dumping it in the MIDDLE of another country where it's barely followed.

If I were debating the merits of relocating the Brisbane Broncos to the Grand Canyon, then you would have a point.

I'm talking about Rugby League teams in the NRL. I thought you were too. My mistake.

Even if you saw an absolutely huge supporters base (like an average attendance of 20k+ which for the size of the market would basically be unheard of in Australia) they'd still be on a shoe string budget compared to the other clubs, cause there simply isn't the advertising or corporate interest in the NT to make up the difference.

They'd basically face all the problems that the Raiders face in attracting sponsors and corporate support but compounded by an order of magnitude. In the best case scenario it'd be an extremely risky club that'd always be teetering on the edge of bankruptcy.

Because the operating costs are lower I can potentially see a second tier club (especially if there was both government and NRL support), but an NRL club is a pipe dream.

You've made up your mind, so I'm not going to waste your or my time any further. My point has been made and it is very clear.

We could sit here and counter each other til the cows come home, won't change either of our opinions.

 

[Perth Red]

Darwin is a bit smaller than Townsville.

I don't think resources is an issue. Having an entire state supporting the side because they don't have a national team in any competition makes their market bigger.

I don't buy a word of your theory on a second Brisbane team. South Queensland went there and went broke in short time. The Titans are the umpteenth incarnation of a side just down the road and they have been hampered by financial misery for nearly all of their joint existences.

Titans showed us that revisiting past failures in QLD are a big chance of repeating past failures.

Actually Titans were financially very successful in their first 3 years, posting profits when pretty much every other NRL club were posting losses. Some bad management decisions and investments is what scuppered them, they tried to run before they could walk.

 

[The Great Dane]

Darwin is a bit smaller than Townsville.

The NQ Cowboys don't draw only from Townsville...

They have multiple population centres relatively close that they draw from (particularly Carins and Mackay), especially for corporate and sponsorship, Darwin doesn't have that advantage.

So yeah the Cowboys catchment is much bigger than even all of the NT, and it is much more closely populated than the NT is.

I don't think resources is an issue. Having an entire state supporting the side because they don't have a national team in any competition makes their market bigger.

Doesn't matter when only half the territory can directly interact with the club cause the rest of it is spread out across the rest of it in tiny and often remote pockets and to far away to do much more than watch their games on TV, and what makes you so sure that the people from Alice Springs will support a club based in Darwin or vice versa?!

More importantly where is the clubs core base of corporate support and sponsors going to come from?

BTW, this may seem pedantic but it's not a state.

I don't buy a word of your theory on a second Brisbane team. South Queensland went there and went broke in short time. The Titans are the umpteenth incarnation of a side just down the road and they have been hampered by financial misery for nearly all of their joint existences.

The Crushers went broke because of influences independent of average market pressures (SL and frankly sabotage from the Broncos), under normal circumstances there's no reason why they couldn't have been successful. The Brisbane market is also a significantly different market then it was 20 years ago.

Also the GC market isn't the Brisbane market.

Titans showed us that revisiting past failures in QLD are a big chance of repeating past failures.

The Titans showed us only that you shouldn't force expansion when you aren't ready for it cause a dodgy judge forced you to take a club back into the comp that you didn't want in the comp and you need to make up the numbers, and also not to try to start a new club that's main source of income was to be property just when the GFC hits...

 

[The Great Dane]

Actually Titans were financially very successful in their first 3 years, posting profits when pretty much every other NRL club were posting losses. Some bad management decisions and investments is what scuppered them, they tried to run before they could walk.

The GFC didn't help either.

 

[The Great Dane]

What?

I'm not proposing taking a team OUT of a country where it has strong roots and dumping it in the MIDDLE of another country where it's barely followed.

If I were debating the merits of relocating the Brisbane Broncos to the Grand Canyon, then you would have a point.

I'm talking about Rugby League teams in the NRL. I thought you were too. My mistake.

You've misunderstood the point.

We agree that The New England Patriots are a well run club... Yes?

So we agree that they are a very well run and successful club, but now lets take the people that run them out of the densely populated Massachusetts where there is a huge corporate base in Boston and easy access to lots of money, and put them in charge of a new NFL team in say Wyoming which has a relatively tiny population that is much more spread out and basically no corporate base what's so ever, how do you think they'd go then?

The answer is the new team would probably go broke cause there isn't enough money and resources in Wyoming to support an NFL team, so despite them being one of the best run clubs in the world with the best operators in the business running the show, with probably the most devoted but smallest supporters base in the NFL, they'd still be screwed cause even the best chef can't make a cake without eggs and there aren't enough eggs in Wyoming to make an NFL cake.

Now analogise that to Australia and the NT.

You've made up your mind, so I'm not going to waste your or my time any further. My point has been made and it is very clear.

We could sit here and counter each other til the cows come home, won't change either of our opinions.

No, my mind could easily be changed, but you'd have to explain how the club in Darwin would support it's self and why and/or how it'd be a more valuable market than other markets that are on the table.

For example if it turned out that there is a multi-billionaire willing to sink stupid amounts of money into owning his own club, but only if it's based in Darwin, and the NRL could get agreements on pay out deals to support the club should he ever decide to pull out of the club, etc, etc, then I'd say go for it, cause it'd be a free all expenses paid expansion into a new market (no matter how small that market may be) with little to no risk to the NRL.

However as things stand I can't see how a Darwin based club could support it's self let along that its hypothetical bid is a better option than others that are on the table.

 

[Perth Red]

lol he thinks NT Govt can afford to turn Darwin stadium with its 6k capacity and 1100 seats into an NRL 20k stadium!