2005 Arias

[Alex28]

Your Radiohead theory interests me - they were flogged by Commercial Radio at the start of their careers and then were not played the more albums they released - so you are suggesting they are sellouts or anti-sellouts?

Kiwi - I need time to reply but I am at work and don't have it now. Just on the Ben Harper thing - I dont like DOTI, but the point is that he went from writing about Human Rights and stuff in his earlier albums, to awful lyrics about love that would appeal to young girls and commercial radio - it was as blatant as it comes.

Hevy Devy's final sentance in the post above sums it up perfectly.

 

[Panthers_God]

mate...i have an opinion on Ben Lee and get frustrated that people go on about how good artists are once they dumb down their music for the masses. if i am condescending and patronising if i express it - then fine.

there are people out there that like music because the radio station they listen to play it ad-nauseum - Ben Lee seems to be this years Jack Johnson. if thats what they like - so be it. i suspect they don't appreciate what happens behind the scenes to get that level of airplay - in that record companies pay (or payola) to get their artist to be this years fad and people get sucked into it.

I agree there. He has changed alot, his music is alot more positive than what it used to be. But I guess that how he has developed and how his views on the world have changed.

 

[Manurewa_Marlins]

In the words of Canibus:

Since it became a lucrative profession there's a misconception
that a movement in any direction is progression
Even though of the potency of it lessens
big money industries writing checks to suppress the question

The fact is all artists, regardless of their genre, signed to major labels are nothing more than commodities being sold over in the market as bi-products of a particular fad/or stereotype of how this music SHOULD be, or how that music SHOULD sound like. This explains why artists such as Jack Johnson, The Foo Fighters hell even Snoop Doggy Dogg, have changed so much from being original, to being generic. The producers and labels pretty much tell them whatthey expect on the album, and the songs are made without questioning the motives of these executives, simply because they can be dumped at anytime, and a new artist/band can fill the void, mqake the music, and make the money. This is why everything on the radio more or less, sounds the same.

 

[Haynzy]

It's not all that easy to write music that will be played on commercial radio.
Ben Harper's DOTI may have been an album written to gain more mainstream attention but does that make him a sell out? There is still some great, non mainstream, music on that album. 'with my own two hands, brown eyed blues, bring the funk, picture of jesus'
He was one of the few 'higher profile' artists to be involved in the 'standing in the shadows of motown' project. That was never going to be much of a comercial success, it was more to do with historical significance.

His more recent projects with the blind boys of alabama have gained him plenty of success but I wouldn't call the music on them particularly 'comercial'

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. this is as true in music as it in art.

I think you may find that record companies are the sell outs, not the songwriters.
The way they market someone or influence how, when or where their music is heard is tragic.
It is just not possible to make a living solely off music if you don't make comercial descisions. Those descisions may be to do with image, sound or even musical style. They don't lessen the art.

 

[Alex28]

In my opinion Haynzy - you've listed the worst songs on that album. My Own Two hands was a great accoustic song until he butchered it with the faux reggae beat, Bring the Funk is awful, Brown Eyed Blues is awful, and I'm not much into gospel so Picture of Jesus didn't do it for me. You need to listen to Welcome to the Cruel World and Fight For Your Mind to really get my point - I don't recognise him as the same artist these days.

I know how influential a record label is to an artist - however when the make a conscious effort to compromise their art for the sake of money - that is the definition of a "sellout" to me.

I think it is possible to make a living out of music without compromising your work - John Butler (no matter what you think of him) is a perfect example.

 

[Panthers_God]

In the words of Canibus:

Since it became a lucrative profession there's a misconception
that a movement in any direction is progression
Even though of the potency of it lessens
big money industries writing checks to suppress the question

The fact is all artists, regardless of their genre, signed to major labels are nothing more than commodities being sold over in the market as bi-products of a particular fad/or stereotype of how this music SHOULD be, or how that music SHOULD sound like. This explains why artists such as Jack Johnson, The Foo Fighters hell even Snoop Doggy Dogg, have changed so much from being original, to being generic. The producers and labels pretty much tell them whatthey expect on the album, and the songs are made without questioning the motives of these executives, simply because they can be dumped at anytime, and a new artist/band can fill the void, mqake the music, and make the money. This is why everything on the radio more or less, sounds the same.

So in your opinion Ben Lee isnt a sellout?? ;-)

 

[carcharias]

In my opinion Haynzy - you've listed the worst songs on that album. My Own Two hands was a great accoustic song until he butchered it with the faux reggae beat, Bring the Funk is awful, Brown Eyed Blues is awful, and I'm not much into gospel so Picture of Jesus didn't do it for me. You need to listen to Welcome to the Cruel World and Fight For Your Mind to really get my point - I don't recognise him as the same artist these days.

I know how influential a record label is to an artist - however when the make a conscious effort to compromise their art for the sake of money - that is the definition of a "sellout" to me.

I think it is possible to make a living out of music without compromising your work - John Butler (no matter what you think of him) is a perfect example.

I dont have a problem with any of Ben Harpers stuff , I don't consider him a sell out what so ever.

So what if he sings a few more up tempo light hearted songs.

I get the impression he's not the kind of person who gives a toss about what record labels tell him to do.

I think he does what he wants and if you dont like ..dont listen to it.

He's just a dude making music.

Maybe his music these days is more a reflection of the way his life is now.

I have Fight for your mind ,live on mars , will to live and diamonds on the inside and I love them all .

Accusing a very famously soulful and spiritual black man of using a faux reggae beat to make money is big call .


Do you have any proof to back up that comment you made? ( in red ) and is it directed toward Ben Harper?

To be brutally honest he would have made enough money from touring and the albums prior to Diamonds , so why would he do that?


I've seen the man in concert and he is amazing , the songs two hands bring the funk were just another dimention to an awesome show.

He played quiet heart breaking acoustic stuff, he played his funky stuff with his slide guitar , there was reggae there were great cover versions and he totally rocked out in the enchores.

and if that is selling out then I'm a bad judge .

 

[fosie]

I'm a fan of missy and know that many people don't like her music and so be it if you don't like it. At least she didn't go on tv to get her career started and has to work to break into the music industry and she doesn't fit into societies image of a pop queen.

Hats off to Thirsty Merc, one of the few Aussie acts that can actually perform well live.

And can anyone tell me why The Veronicas are signed to some billion dollar deal in the US? They're not that special.

 

[Haynzy]

In my opinion Haynzy - you've listed the worst songs on that album. My Own Two hands was a great accoustic song until he butchered it with the faux reggae beat, Bring the Funk is awful, Brown Eyed Blues is awful, and I'm not much into gospel so Picture of Jesus didn't do it for me. You need to listen to Welcome to the Cruel World and Fight For Your Mind to really get my point - I don't recognise him as the same artist these days.

Fair enough, you don't particularly like that style. I didn't necessarily list them as the best songs but just as songs that weren't particularly mainstream in style. I do think they are very good songs and I have all of his albums, both of our views of his music will come down to taste.

I know how influential a record label is to an artist - however when the make a conscious effort to compromise their art for the sake of money - that is the definition of a "sellout" to me.

How on earth could we know if he has 'compromised his art' in writing more mainstream albums? That may have been the challenge that he set himself in writing that album, like I said earlier, writing a comercialy acceptable song isn't as easy a task as many think.

I think it is possible to make a living out of music without compromising your work - John Butler (no matter what you think of him) is a perfect example.

That's fair enough but I think JB has made similar kinds of comercial descisions in his career as BH has.

 

[HevyDevy]

The Wiggles have sold out. It used to be all about the music.

 

[Haynzy]

The Wiggles have sold out. It used to be all about the music.

:lol: :lol:

 

[Alex28]

Do you have any proof to back up that comment you made? ( in red ) and is it directed toward Ben Harper?

To be brutally honest he would have made enough money from touring and the albums prior to Diamonds , so why would he do that?

First point - never aimed that point at any artist in particular.

As for Ben and money - you would be surprised how small his profile was in the States prior to DOTI. If you do some research you will find that he was very close to being dropped from Virgin prior to DOTI and has stated in interviews that he had to re-appraise his style to be more marketable in the States. Whilst he is massive here, he is small fry in the States and virtually non-existant in the main Europe markets (besides France and some smaller countries), and we are a very small musical market in the scheme of things (thus why he hasn't been out to tour in 2 years since he got more US action...).

So...you don't agree with me that DOTI is aimed at a different market to Cruel World and Fight For Your Mind?

 

[carcharias]

First point - never aimed that point at any artist in particular.

As for Ben and money - you would be surprised how small his profile was in the States prior to DOTI. If you do some research you will find that he was very close to being dropped from Virgin prior to DOTI and has stated in interviews that he had to re-appraise his style to be more marketable in the States. Whilst he is massive here, he is small fry in the States and virtually non-existant in the main Europe markets (besides France and some smaller countries), and we are a very small musical market in the scheme of things (thus why he hasn't been out to tour in 2 years since he got more US action...).

So...you don't agree with me that DOTI is aimed at a different market to Cruel World and Fight For Your Mind?

so does that mean his is a sh*t person now?
Is there a problem with wanting to be more successful?

He's not like he's doing coke a cola commercials or getting movie stars in his video's.

Like I said maybe his music changed as his life has changed.

Every band evolve it just a natural thing.

I don't think that his music has changed all that much anyway.
His band is sh*t hot why not utilise them like in bring the funk...that bass player is a genius.

A lot of his early stuff was very sparse and almost depressing.

Look at how much U2 have changed over the years.

Do you think they have "sold out" because they changed or they are very rich and famous.

I have no idea why anyone would really point the finger at BH and say he's a sellout when there is a shed load more obvious "sell outs" ....Lenny Kravitz comes to mind.
american woman...spewworthy.

 

[Frances the Mute]

I'm a fan of missy and know that many people don't like her music and so be it if you don't like it. At least she didn't go on tv to get her career started and has to work to break into the music industry and she doesn't fit into societies image of a pop queen.

Hats off to Thirsty Merc, one of the few Aussie acts that can actually perform well live.

And can anyone tell me why The Veronicas are signed to some billion dollar deal in the US? They're not that special.

Because they are hot 20 year old twins, who sing about wanting to have sex with YOU tonight. You are right though, the half dozen songs I've heard from their album are pretty standard. But let's not gloss over the fact that a million teenage boys are beating off to them as I type this.

I don't mind Missy either, and in fact the only reason I have gone off her of late is that everyone in my office, and my roommate, have her album on repeat pretty half the time. The other half is dedicated to Ben Lee's Awake is the New Sleep, so the same goes for him.

The ARIAs can't be taken too seriously though, they generally seem to pick fairly safe albums/songs/artists to give their awards to. They also hold grudges, don't they Nick Cave? That poor bastard released what was widely regarded by the world music press as one of the top 5 (double) albums of last year, Including Mojo's no.1, and he didn't so much as receive a nomination. Pfft.

 

[Kiwi]

First point - never aimed that point at any artist in particular.

As for Ben and money - you would be surprised how small his profile was in the States prior to DOTI. If you do some research you will find that he was very close to being dropped from Virgin prior to DOTI and has stated in interviews that he had to re-appraise his style to be more marketable in the States. Whilst he is massive here, he is small fry in the States and virtually non-existant in the main Europe markets (besides France and some smaller countries), and we are a very small musical market in the scheme of things (thus why he hasn't been out to tour in 2 years since he got more US action...).

So...you don't agree with me that DOTI is aimed at a different market to Cruel World and Fight For Your Mind?

Tell me is the mesage in Ben Harper's music any different? Or is it just the style?

If it's just the style, then did it cross your mind that he could have made the choice to try and reach more people with his music? He could have signed for a smaller music label if he wanted if he got dropped, it probably wouldn't have been hard to find one that would have picked him up. Maybe he made the choice to change the style to reach a broader audience.

 

[Alex28]

so does that mean his is a sh*t person now?

This is as far as I read and realised you aren't worth debating with. Dumb comment from a dumbarse.

 

[Alex28]

Tell me is the mesage in Ben Harper's music any different? Or is it just the style?

If it's just the style, then did it cross your mind that he could have made the choice to try and reach more people with his music? He could have signed for a smaller music label if he wanted if he got dropped, it probably wouldn't have been hard to find one that would have picked him up. Maybe he made the choice to change the style to reach a broader audience.

Read his lyrics in earlier albums - he sung about Black Rights (Like A King), Discrimination, Homosexuality (Mama's Got A Girlfriend). Then check out the DOTI lyrics. There is a vast change...

The whole point is that he has been after that audience all along and realised he can't be doing it by singing about topical issues like racism and people's rights. He had to dumb his music down to reach the masses - which he did on DOTI (to be honest 'Steal My Kisses' off the album 'Burn To Shine' was the beginning of the end - DOTI just confirmed it).

If thats what he wants - more power to him. I won't be hanging along for the ride and buying his CD's and seeing him in concert.

 

[Haynzy]

Read his lyrics in earlier albums - he sung about Black Rights (Like A King), Discrimination, Homosexuality (Mama's Got A Girlfriend). Then check out the DOTI lyrics. There is a vast change...

Picture of Jesus from DOTI lauds Martin Luther King as well.
You can only sing about the same things so many times before it gets old.

The whole point is that he has been after that audience all along and realised he can't be doing it by singing about topical issues like racism and people's rights. He had to dumb his music down to reach the masses - which he did on DOTI (to be honest 'Steal My Kisses' off the album 'Burn To Shine' was the beginning of the end - DOTI just confirmed it).

He has altered his music to make it more accsessable to the mainstream, I take that point BUT,
That doesn't make him a sellout. The message is still there, maybe not as constantly, but it is now getting exposure in the mainstream.
Smart comercial move? sure.
Smart move to get your message to the masses? Definately.

If thats what he wants - more power to him. I won't be hanging along for the ride and buying his CD's and seeing him in concert.

Again, I think you are making that descision because you don't like the particular style of song he is writing now.
I have no problem with that.
I just don't think it is fair to say that he has sold out.

In the end you want as many people as possible to hear your music, doesn't matter who you are. You will make comercial descisions to see your message exposed to as many people as possible.
In the end this discussion will revert to the tried and true 'art for art's sake' dilema that faces any artist.

 

[carcharias]

This is as far as I read and realised you aren't worth debating with. Dumb comment from a dumbarse.

atta'way to lose a debate.

Maybe if you bothered to read it you wouldn't not look like such tosser right now.

 

[Alex28]

Who looks like a tosser? I'm not the one who managed to bend "I dont like the way his career has gone" into "he is a sh*t person". Obviously you haven't read what i said properly and went straight to extreme comments to justify your point.

I don't have time to debate with people who aren't smart enough to properly debate the topic. I didn't lose - you are just out of your depth mate.