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2014 new boys thread!

IFR33K

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Prince is injured. They did have the option to put him at 6 and hoffman to fullback. I reckon they didnt because they want him playing the left and the right

You are probably right, but it still doesnt make sense. I was thinking he's at fullback, because he's a poor defender in the line, but he can't be worse than prince. There goes that theory.
 

Poupou Escobar

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Josh Hoffman is their best back (after Hodges), and their attack is set up to get him plenty of ball, but they obviously see Wallace and Prince as both part of their best 17 (and are probably paid accordingly).

Therefore 6 and 7 are taken up by those two because that's the only positions they can play. That pushes Norman to fullback (because that's the only remaining position that he can play) and therefore Hoffman to wing.
 

Poupou Escobar

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"Pick your best 13 and worry about the number on their back later."

Wasn't Kearney who said that, but it was another Supercoach.

If Gibson was alive today he would say "pick your best 17..." but the principle is the same.
 

Gary Gutful

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Given the specialisation required for different positions I think it is too hard to determine who your best 13 'footballers' are without giving some consideration to what the players role may be.

If NQ had 13 Thurstons available to them I doubt they would use all 13. If they did they would have a pretty sh!tty forward pack.

Gibson didn't do his sums when he came up with that statement.
 

Poupou Escobar

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Given the specialisation required for different positions I think it is too hard to determine who your best 13 'footballers' are without giving some consideration to what the players role may be.

If NQ had 13 Thurstons available to them I doubt they would use all 13. If they did they would have a pretty sh!tty forward pack.

Gibson didn't do his sums when he came up with that statement.

If Gibson went out and signed 17 halfbacks then he would have to use all 17.

Your stupid example presupposes a lack of planning during the recruitment/retention process.

Of course you would ideally have the most suitable player at each position (and backups too) within the confines of the salary cap. But over the course of players' contracts the younger ones (generally) improve and the older ones (generally) get worse, and kids that were backups can explode into first graders overnight to the point where your carefully planned top 17 is thrown into disarray. That's when (for example) you find you have three centres in your top 17 players but only one edge forward. The logical thing is to shift your biggest centre to the forwards.

The alternative is to leave one of your top 17 players (one of the centres) in reserve grade whilst playing a second rower that isn't as good, just to avoid playing a bloke 'out of position'. Instead you're playing the other guy in a grade he doesn't deserve.
 

Gary Gutful

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I was exaggerating to make a point. My basic argument is that the whole process of determining which 17 players to include in your NRL team is naturally one that would involve considering what a players role would be and what position they may play. Do you not agree with this?

In the example that you gave of a centre moving to second row. The fact that the player is likely to be versatile enough to move to the second row is something that would have been considered before the switch would have been made.

Also, how can you be certain that the 17 players in your NRL team are the 17 best 'football players' at your club? What metrics do you use to rate someone as a 'football player'? What about the gun halfback in U20s or Wenty who has scored 400 points for the season? Surely he has an argument to suggest that he is a better 'football player' than some meathead prop that is specifically needed to fulfill a role in the NRL team? Why isn't he in the top 17? Wait, could it be because the only players better than him are the incumbent NRL halves and unfortunately he is not suited to any other position in the team?

"Choose your best 17, worry about the numbers on their back later".

I don't believe that adequately describes how any coach in the NRL is picking their team each week.
 

lingard

Coach
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11,423
I can't understand why they're playing him at 1 instead of 6


It's very puzzling. Especially since Hoffman had been doing such a good job at fullback. I suppose they figure that Hoffman will play fullback next year (when Norman leaves). They're going to face a halves crisis soon, though, because Wallace and Prince aren't getting any younger - or better.
 
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Poupou Escobar

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I was exaggerating to make a point. My basic argument is that the whole process of determining which 17 players to include in your NRL team is naturally one that would involve considering what a players role would be and what position they may play. Do you not agree with this?

I sure do. But that consideration is done at the recruitment/retention stage of team selection, so that there is no hypothetical situation of what to do with your 13 international halfbacks.

In the example that you gave of a centre moving to second row. The fact that the player is likely to be versatile enough to move to the second row is something that would have been considered before the switch would have been made.

I'd say the vast majority of footballers are versatile enough to play more than one position. Dual premiership winner Chris Anderson made reference to this over a decade ago (and you touch on it in your next paragraph) when he said he picks "two props, a halfback, and ten athletes".

You'd think if a coach conducted effective recruitment/retention that the props and the halfback would be included in the top 17. If not why did he sign them (or fail to sign better replacements)?

Also, how can you be certain that the 17 players in your NRL team are the 17 best 'football players' at your club? What metrics do you use to rate someone as a 'football player'?

Outside of the handful of specialist positions, I would go for athleticism and determination. That seems to be what NRL coaches look for.

What about the gun halfback in U20s or Wenty who has scored 400 points for the season? Surely he has an argument to suggest that he is a better 'football player' than some meathead prop that is specifically needed to fulfill a role in the NRL team? Why isn't he in the top 17? Wait, could it be because the only players better than him are the incumbent NRL halves and unfortunately he is not suited to any other position in the team?

If a specialist player (i.e. halves and props) isn't good enough for the top 17 then he's not good enough for the top 17. It's a circular argument because it's a circular argument.

It's worth noting that halves and props are the two positions most likely to be liabilities in defence (for different reasons). That means teams carry them only because they're essential in attack, which is why we have seen, throughout the years, teams attempt to make do with as few of these as possible - whether it's an Origin team with one prop and two locks on the field, or like so many club teams have stuck an extra back rower or centre in the 6 jersey.

"Choose your best 17, worry about the numbers on their back later".

I don't believe that adequately describes how any coach in the NRL is picking their team each week.

Well it worked for big Jack, and if anything the game is even less specialised now (Anderson's "ten athletes"). When the Origin teams are picked have a look at how many blokes are picked 'out of position'. That should show you how few specialists there are in the game.
 
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It's very puzzling. Especially since Hoffman had been doing such a good job at fullback. I suppose they figure that Hoffman will play fullback next year (when Norman leaves). They're going to face a halves crisis soon, though, because Wallace and Prince aren't getting any younger - or better.

Funnily enough, If you speak to Bronco fans, alot of them think Hoffman is a terrible fullback, and Norman has doing such a good job, so I can understand why you'd leave him there.

That said, it will be interesting what the halves set up next year is at the Broncs given that of their top three, Norman is going, rumours have Wallace leaving, and Prince is old, injury prone, and has been out if form for 2 years. Their next back up (Ben Hunt) is rubbish, so they'll have to be in the market
 

Noise

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18,182
Out of position? I can think of maybe 2, gallen and ferguson. Isn't everyone else picked in their club position?
 

Gary Gutful

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Correct Noise.

Assuming the NSW squad in today's paper is the one that is picked then I can only really see Ferguson and Gallen picked in positions that they don't currently play at club level.
 

Poupou Escobar

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Out of position? I can think of maybe 2, gallen and ferguson. Isn't everyone else picked in their club position?

Don't forget Boyd, Inglis and probably Brent Tate. Then there's Thaiday who is currently playing prop for his club but will probably play at right edge forward. Plus Ash Harrison plays in the middle for the Titans but in recent years has been the left edge forward for his state.

My point isn't that these guys are playing out of position, but that they are all versatile, like the vast majority of players in the NRL.

They run and they tackle. At most positions that's all they do. Only a couple of guys need the specialist skills of playmaking (halves) or bending a set defensive line and getting a quick play-the-ball (props). In fact, if you have enough non-props that can do the latter as a bonus skill it means you don't need to carry some giant whose lack of lateral movement will be exploited in defence.
 

Gary Gutful

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Lets explore that a bit further.

If we run with your suggestions, I make that potentially 5 QLDers and 2 NSWelshmen out of position. There will be far more players chosen in their recognised positions than players chosen out of position.

The players may be 'versatile' as you suggest. However, it seems likely the NSW and QLD coaches will more often than not ignore that 'versatility' (as evidenced by the fact that nearly 3/4 of the starting Origin teams are likely to play a role that is very familiar to them).

If 3/4 of the teams are going to play in their club positions do you really think that Big Mal and Daley will choose the team first and then worry about the numbers on their back later?
 

emjaycee

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13,829
Lets explore that a bit further.

If we run with your suggestions, I make that potentially 5 QLDers and 2 NSWelshmen out of position. There will be far more players chosen in their recognised positions than players chosen out of position.

The players may be 'versatile' as you suggest. However, it seems likely the NSW and QLD coaches will more often than not ignore that 'versatility' (as evidenced by the fact that nearly 3/4 of the starting Origin teams are likely to play a role that is very familiar to them).

If 3/4 of the teams are going to play in their club positions do you really think that Big Mal and Daley will choose the team first and then worry about the numbers on their back later?

This may be true but it doesn't negate Pou's comments. Rep coaches don't have an off-season to train players in unfamiliar positions so would be more likely to go for players who play the specific position each week and dont need to relearn lines to run etc.

The best rep teams seem to have been the ones with consistent players in the familiar positions be it at cub or rep level.

And barring injury to Snake, hayne would be playing on the wing and out of position.
 
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