2016/17 Summer of Cricket

[hineyrulz]

Yeh, but you know that GOAT is a term used by his team mates to give him a ribbing though, don't you? He's not competing against a great pool of Australian right-arm finger spinners.

I know a heap of people who call him the GOAT and think he's our greatest ever. His teammates might think it's funny but just because he has played plenty of games doesn't make him a great of anything.

Off the top of my head

Trumble
mallet
Johnson
Yardley

Even someone like May if he had of played more test matches is a far superior bowler to him. He's been the best bowler we have picked since Warne but that says more about our struggles than anything.

 

[Happy MEel]

Prior to the current test I wrote (post #918 in this thread) the following after the pitch reports came through:



You'll also note that I've never said that SOK would be less economical.

Yeah I know...it was just a friendly dig following your Guns'n'Roses moment after Lyon's 8fer'

 

[Barry O'Speedwagon]

I know a heap of people who call him the GOAT and think he's our greatest ever. His teammates might think it's funny but just because he has played plenty of games doesn't make him a great of anything.

Off the top of my head

Trumble
mallet
Johnson
Yardley

.

Trumble bowled on uncovered wickets (enough said).
Mallett and Yardley were good, and have superior averages to Lyon, but Lyon's strike is much better (a wicket / 63 balls as opposed a wicket / 73 balls, or 70 balls). Lyon has also played in an era of bigger bats, shorter boundaries and generally higher scores.
I don't know which Johnson you are talking about.

 

[hineyrulz]

Trumble bowled on uncovered wickets (enough said).
Mallett and Yardley were good, and have superior averages to Lyon, but Lyon's strike is much better (a wicket / 63 balls as opposed a wicket / 73 balls, or 70 balls). Lyon has also played in an era of bigger bats, shorter boundaries and generally higher scores.
I don't know which Johnson you are talking about.

Ian, former captain of Australia. Also a handy bat.

 

[hineyrulz]

Didn't know you were chairman of the GOAT fan club Barry

 

[Barry O'Speedwagon]

Didn't know you were chairman of the GOAT fan club Barry

I'm not. Simply adding some perspective to this discussion. There is no obvious stand out from the relatively small set of post-war offspinners who've played a serious number of tests for Aus. Supporters of each of them can make a defensible claim that their guy was the best.....but what I do know is that on Australian wickets the playing conditions (pitches, rope boundaries and bat sizes) have made it progressively harder for an off spinner since the 90s. If we exclude the chuckers, there aren't too many who have done better in tests in Aust. Does that mean that Lyon is the GOAT. Of course not. What it means is that unless someone emerges who does a 'Bradman-equivalent', the question is unanswerable.

 

[Twizzle]

dont be leaving out Funky

personally I think the Goat is the worst spinner ever to get 200 wickets

he learnt his trade playing for Australia instead of playing grade cricket, why we persevered with him for this long is beyond me, apart from his 8 fer in the second test he has never taken a 5 fer for about 4 years even on turning pitches

he has only just learned the value of variation in the last 15 months, till then it was 6 identical offies per over and he was way to predictable for mine

 

[Barry O'Speedwagon]

Funky's off spin career was a bit short. Would've been good to see what would've happened if the idea occurred to him earlier. Keith Miller also dabbled in off spin with some success (I think). And he was a dude.

As you know, I think some of you guys are off your tree with your criticism of Lyon overall (not so much wrt to form in a particular series). Guys who work with a lot of overspin aren't as easy to assess on TV (it's not easy to see the extent to which the ball drops from above your eyeline to below it, and how late that happens). I'm not saying he is the GOAT. But for a bloke who has been picked pretty much regardless of whether the pitch offers any help for spin, he has done pretty well.

 

[Twizzle]

he gets picked regardless of whether he takes wickets or not, he goes through some terrible patches of 1 or no wickets for test after test and he still gets picked

 

[Barry O'Speedwagon]

and yet the guy has a better strike rate than pretty much every post-war Australian finger spinner (who has played 10 or more games)?

Lyon 63
Mallett 73
Yardley 70
Ian Johnson 80
May 87

Miller beats him at 59, derived from a mix of fast medium and off breaks.

 

[Barry O'Speedwagon]

Looks like Dharamsala will be quicker. If Cummins is ok, he'll cause some trouble.

 

[Twizzle]

Lyon's strength is leading the team song.

 

[Happy MEel]

and yet the guy has a better strike rate than pretty much every post-war Australian finger spinner (who has played 10 or more games)?

Lyon 63
Mallett 73
Yardley 70
Ian Johnson 80
May 87

Miller beats him at 59, derived from a mix of fast medium and off breaks.

SOK doesn't qualify under your criteria but after seven matches his strike rate is 55 which is pretty impressive. I think what we're saying is it's surprising he hasn't Been afforded the same opportunities as Lyon, particularly seeing as though he has made the most of it when they have been presented.

 

[Happy MEel]

Looks like Dharamsala will be quicker. If Cummins is ok, he'll cause some trouble.

I'm surprised that's the case as they need a win to get back the trophy. I was expecting a rank turner.

 

[Bazal]

SOK doesn't qualify under your criteria but after seven matches his strike rate is 55 which is pretty impressive. I think what we're saying is it's surprising he hasn't Been afforded the same opportunities as Lyon, particularly seeing as though he has made the most of it when they have been presented.

Essentially this. SOK has the best FC spin record in the country but has been continually overlooked...they wanted a left arm spinner to combat KP years ago, SOK got him in a tour match and was killing it at Shield level...they picked Xavier fking Doherty. Lyon has gone through absolutely awful patches, but they've kept him going and going averaging 60 and more at times while SOK averaged 22 and 23 in Shield cricket

As an outsider it looks like they pick Lyon on personality, rather than ability. He's not a bad spinner at his best, but he's a very one dimensional one who has been given more chances than Mark Taylor, often in similar form....

 

[Barry O'Speedwagon]

SOK doesn't qualify under your criteria but after seven matches his strike rate is 55 which is pretty impressive. I think what we're saying is it's surprising he hasn't Been afforded the same opportunities as Lyon, particularly seeing as though he has made the most of it when they have been presented.

Sure. But the games in which you select a second spinner are not randomly determined. People often noted that at times in his career Macgill had a comparable record to Warne. But he played in games where the pitch suggested that two spinners were 'a go'. Warne played regardless. That distorts records.

I'll stick my neck out again. If this 4th test pitch is bouncier (and I believe that is the case), Lyon will be the greater wicket-taking threat of the two spinners. Both will do their job.

 

[Barry O'Speedwagon]

I'm surprised that's the case as they need a win to get back the trophy. I was expecting a rank turner.

The city is at altitude, you only have so much control over the elements. Still, we'll see what happens.

 

[Bazal]

Sure. But the games in which you select a second spinner are not randomly determined. People often noted that at times in his career Macgill had a comparable record to Warne. But he played in games where the pitch suggested that two spinners were 'a go'. Warne played regardless. That distorts records.

I'll stick my neck out again. If this 4th test pitch is bouncier (and I believe that is the case), Lyon will be the greater wicket-taking threat of the two spinners. Both will do their job.

Dharamsala was deader than KPs career for England during the T20 world cup....

 

[Barry O'Speedwagon]

Dharamsala was deader than KPs career for England during the T20 world cup....

Sure. But preparing a wicket to last half a day is different to doing so for a test.

I am prepared to be surprised though. It's not going to be Perth circa 1982.

 

[Bazal]

Sure. But preparing a wicket to last half a day is different to doing so for a test.

I am prepared to be surprised though. It's not going to be Perth circa 1982.

Yeah but they used one or two pitches for the whole tournament...well, whatever games they hosted anyway. That's really the only time I've seen Dharamsala though so who knows?

Reckon I'd love to watch a game there though...although the backdrop might distract me from the game....