4th Test: Australia v India at Gabba Jan 15-19, 2021

[simmo1]

You guys listen to the Grade Cricketer at all? Under all the satire they actually do often talk some pretty handy stuff about cricket and they've historically SLAMMED Chappell for exactly this.

They had him in the show not long ago. I've fallen behind in my podcast listening lately but I'm keen to dig that one up.

Definitely worth a listen.

He doesn't shy away from his beliefs, but also suggests that a lot of others at CA who shared his philosophy at the time have made him the scapegoat. He makes some good counter points in that his belief was always trying to challenge the younger talent, rather than let them stagnate, citing his and Ian's upbringing vs Trevor's.

Certainly made me think of him in a different light.

 

[undertaker]

Hayden is a supposed all time GOAT but it took a lot of those blokes you mentioned to retire for him to pile on the runs, Hayden was 10 X the player a Wade will ever be.

I agree with you.

If you divide Haydo's time in the national team into two stages: 1993-97 and 2000-09, he definitely flourished during the 2000-09 stage due to obvious reasons.

Nevertheless, even though he had a much easier time during 2000-09, Haydos and Langer completely tore new-ball bowling attacks apart. They didn't just stand there like a statue, score 8 runs off 51 balls and allow themselves to take body blows like Wade did when he opened the batting in Adelaide last month. Hayden/Langer had SIX double century (200+ runs) opening partnerships!

This is something we haven't had for along time: a strong, consistent opening partnership that dictates terms (sorry to use a Wally Lewis expression) and lays the foundation for the middle order batsmen to perform their role. In the 2000s, we had Hayden/Langer. In the previous decade, it was Taylor/Slater.

Because of the inconsistent opening partnerships and the constant chopping and changing to the opening batsmen, we've been relying very heavily over the past few years on Steve Smith (and to a lesser extent, Labuschagne) to continually bail us out when we're 2 wickets down for a small amount of runs.

 

[simmo1]

Lehmann and Elliott would be piling on thousands of runs if they were playing on the flat tracks against average bowling in Shield these days, not to mention they faced Ambrose/Walsh/Waqar/Wasim/Akhtar/Donald/Pollock/Gough/Bond during their careers. Those are some of the best bowlers in the history of cricket.

Test/Shield pitches in Australia up to the early 2000's offered much more for bowlers compared to the flat tracks dished out today. SCG was a rank turner, Gabba/WACA was a fast bowler's paradise, MCG was up and down, and Adelaide was good for batting on the first 3 days, and then deteriorated and offered something for bowlers on the final day.

I know North Sydney Oval is a small ground, but to score a one-day century against a bowling attack of McGrath/Lee/Bracken/MacGill is definitely no small achievement, and something Wade could only dream of doing if he had his lifetime 10 times over:

Yep, came up against some quality bowlers. But there is also plenty of quality running around these days too. In fact, the last 100 tests have been statistically as good as any for fast bowlers (https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/why-this-is-the-greatest-age-for-fast-bowling-in-60-years-1224236)

 

[undertaker]

My recollection Re Elliott and his absence from the national team injury or not was that he spoke out of school and lost the trust of his adulterous teammates....

Never heard of that before.

If something did happen, it may've been on the 1999 West Indies tour, as Elliott only played one more test after that tour, 5 years later vs Sri Lanka.

 

[hineyrulz]

I didhear Elliot was the ,most complicated cricketer from the country ever.

He was an excellent takent with a great technique but there was more than a dodgy knee thar held him back.

 

[Bazal]

Yep, came up against some quality bowlers. But there is also plenty of quality running around these days too. In fact, the last 100 tests have been statistically as good as any for fast bowlers (https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/why-this-is-the-greatest-age-for-fast-bowling-in-60-years-1224236)

I think, globally, it's just about the best crop of fast bowlers in modern history anyway. The batting has fallen over a bit, but the bowling hasn't

There might not be a Waqar or a Wasim or a Holding or whoever, but every country bar one or two have excellent fast bowlers.

And before the old boys have a whinge, I'm not saying the individual bowlers are better than the greats. But imagine telling the Indians in the 80s that they'd have a world class fast bowling attack an potentially the best fast bowler in the world? Pakistan have about 12 blokes to pick from who can tear sides to bits. England and NZ have very good attacks, South Africa too, and our stocks are as strong as ever. Cummins is possible GOAT quality in terms of Aussie quicks.

Across the board there are excellent fast bowlers in almost every Test side. That was certainly not the case in the 80s.

 

[Eelogical]

Elite utter utter mediocrity.

Leave our sledging out of this.

 

[Hutty1986]

Lehmann was a class batsman, scored some great hundreds in the subcontinent iirc.

Funnily enough, for a bloke raised on a fairly spicy waca deck, Damien Martyn was nothing short of brilliant in those famous 03/04 subcontinent tours where we were behind (sometimes 100+) on every first dig and won 3-0 in Sri Lanka, then finally broke a long drought in India (player of the series no less). I can't say Marto's dismissals didnt give me the shits at times back then, but we could always recover back in those golden years if a couple big guns didn't fire. As far as i know, he wasn't pushed to retire, but him bowing out after the 3rd test in that 06/07 whitewash still doesn't feel quite right.

 

[simmo1]

I think, globally, it's just about the best crop of fast bowlers in modern history anyway. The batting has fallen over a bit, but the bowling hasn't

There might not be a Waqar or a Wasim or a Holding or whoever, but every country bar one or two have excellent fast bowlers.

And before the old boys have a whinge, I'm not saying the individual bowlers are better than the greats. But imagine telling the Indians in the 80s that they'd have a world class fast bowling attack an potentially the best fast bowler in the world? Pakistan have about 12 blokes to pick from who can tear sides to bits. England and NZ have very good attacks, South Africa too, and our stocks are as strong as ever. Cummins is possible GOAT quality in terms of Aussie quicks.

Across the board there are excellent fast bowlers in almost every Test side. That was certainly not the case in the 80s.

Agree, certainly very consistent quality at the moment. The most interesting thing from the article is that Aus and England quicks were ranked 5th and 7th over the past 3 years yet some would argue they are up there with their best ever attacks.

 

[hineyrulz]

I think, globally, it's just about the best crop of fast bowlers in modern history anyway. The batting has fallen over a bit, but the bowling hasn't

There might not be a Waqar or a Wasim or a Holding or whoever, but every country bar one or two have excellent fast bowlers.

And before the old boys have a whinge, I'm not saying the individual bowlers are better than the greats. But imagine telling the Indians in the 80s that they'd have a world class fast bowling attack an potentially the best fast bowler in the world? Pakistan have about 12 blokes to pick from who can tear sides to bits. England and NZ have very good attacks, South Africa too, and our stocks are as strong as ever. Cummins is possible GOAT quality in terms of Aussie quicks.

Across the board there are excellent fast bowlers in almost every Test side. That was certainly not the case in the 80s.

Ummm really??

In the 80's you had the Windies = about 10 world class bowlers

Pakis you had Imran,Wasim and a young Waqar

NZ had Hadlee

India has Kapil

England had Botham,Willis and Dilley was world class when he was fit.


No free lunches off Sri Lanka,Zimbos or anyone else.

 

[Bazal]

Lehmann was a class batsman, scored some great hundreds in the subcontinent iirc.

Funnily enough, for abloke raised on a fairly spicy waca deck, Damien Martyn was nothing short of brilliant in those famous 03/04 tours where we were behind (sometimes 100+) on every first dig and won 3-0 in Sri Lanka, then finally broke a long drought in India (player of the series no less). I can't say Marto's dismissals didnt give me the shits at times back then, but we could always recover back in those golden years if a couple big guns didn't fire. As far as i know, he wasn't pushed to retire, but him bowing out after the 3rd test in that 06/07 whitewash still doesn't feel quite right.

Marto was great to watch but he had the fortitude to match some of our current wet leeks, sadly.

Junior cops shit for being elegant but apathetic, Martyn was the definition of it. Didn't he retire cos they said they were going to drop him and he cracked the squirts?

 

[Bazal]

Ummm really??

In the 80's you had the Windies = about 10 world class bowlers

Pakis you had Imran,Wasim and a young Waqar

NZ had Hadlee

India has Kapil

England had Botham,Willis and Dilley was world class when he was fit.


No free lunches off Sri Lanka,Zimbos or anyone else.

Yeah really.

How many of those attacks apart from Windies and Pakistan (who I said were always very good) had three quality 145+ bowlers?

Granted there were some very good and very smart SWING bowlers, but I think it's tough to argue the quality of fast bowlers was the same across the board.

Take India. They had Dev and...? Roger Binny? New Zealand, Hadlee and? Ewen Chatfield?

There were plenty of excellent individual bowlers, that's not the point. What odds if Hadlee went down that NZ could have replaced with someone the quality of say, Kyle Jamieson or Lachie Ferguson?

If Lillee went down, did we have a James Pattinson sitting on the bench?

Like I said, it's not that the individuals are better. But I guarantee a second string attack today looks 500 times better than a second string attack back then for anyone except the Windies.

 

[undertaker]

Lehmann was a class batsman, scored some great hundreds in the subcontinent iirc.

Funnily enough, for a bloke raised on a fairly spicy waca deck, Damien Martyn was nothing short of brilliant in those famous 03/04 subcontinent tours where we were behind (sometimes 100+) on every first dig and won 3-0 in Sri Lanka, then finally broke a long drought in India (player of the series no less). I can't say Marto's dismissals didnt give me the shits at times back then, but we could always recover back in those golden years if a couple big guns didn't fire. As far as i know, he wasn't pushed to retire, but him bowing out after the 3rd test in that 06/07 whitewash still doesn't feel quite right.

Martyn was extremely unlucky not to win the 2005 Allan Border Medal. He was absolutely outstanding in those previous 12 months. Clarke only got it due to the "media/journalist" component of the vote count.

Watched an interesting 2-part interview Martyn did with some Pakistani doctor/tv host (Dr Nauman) who interviews ex-cricketers a while back. He shared some interesting insights on his upbringing, and early career. Although he said he was burnt out and wanted to retire before the start of the 2006/07 Ashes (before Ponting dissuaded him), his only regret was not playing Shield cricket for another couple of years after leaving the national side.

Unfortunately, the interview has been taken down from YouTube.

 

[The Mad Hatter]

https://www.cricketcountry.com/arti...acts-about-the-former-australia-opener-508741

 

[hineyrulz]

Yeah really.

How many of those attacks apart from Windies and Pakistan (who I said were always very good) had three quality 145+ bowlers?

Granted there were some very good and very smart SWING bowlers, but I think it's tough to argue the quality of fast bowlers was the same across the board.

Take India. They had Dev and...? Roger Binny? New Zealand, Hadlee and? Ewen Chatfield?

There were plenty of excellent individual bowlers, that's not the point. What odds if Hadlee went down that NZ could have replaced with someone the quality of say, Kyle Jamieson or Lachie Ferguson?

If Lillee went down, did we have a James Pattinson sitting on the bench?

Like I said, it's not that the individuals are better. But I guarantee a second string attack today looks 500 times better than a second string attack back then for anyone except the Windies.

We had Lillee,Thommo,Alderman,Lawson,Hogg.,Mcdermott,Reid,Merv etc etc. Mocka Rackemann would of gotten 200 plus wickets now a days.

You also have to remember todays players are professional, you'd hope their is far more depth because the top line players got paid SFA let alone the back up. Just think a homless bum like Matty Wade has earnt a shotload more than the great AB, if that doesn't make your heart hurt nothing will.

 

[AlwaysGreen]

Helluva horse blanket reunion you blokes are having

 

[undertaker]

Remember when Hazelett got thrown into the ODI side because Chaps liked the look of his cover drive???


He did a young player no favours and now he struggles to make the QLD side, Chappell is a weirdo and i have heard a few stories from some good sources that make me like him even less.

Ian Chaps is the better bro seriously, horse blanket and all.

Sam Heazlett hadn't even played one 50 over game for his own state when he played that ODI in NZ! I mean, seriously, the selectors must've had a lot to drink the night before to make a decision like that.

Or the numerous times players have got into the test team off the back of white ball cricket form, only to get exposed when bowling with the red ball (e.g. Xavier Doherty).

Michael Beer and Bryce McGain can both thank Shane Warne for their Baggy Green caps, as the selectors at the time (led by Andrew Hilditch, where 10 spinners were trialed in the 4 1/2 year period between Warne's retirement and Nathan Lyon's debut in a obsessive attempt to find the next Shane Warne) chose both of them purely off the back of Warne's strong recommendation of them in the media.

Man oh man, there's been a lot of curveballs the Aussie selectors have thrown up over the years.

 

[hineyrulz]

I'd argue the bowling attacks in the mid 90's were the best.......... IMO.

 

[Bazal]

We had Lillee,Thommo,Alderman,Lawson,Hogg.,Mcdermott,Reid,Merv etc etc. Mocka Rackemann would of gotten 200 plus wickets now a days.

You also have to remember todays players are professional, you'd hope their is far more depth because the top line players got paid SFA let alone the back up. Just think a homless bum like Matty Wade has earnt a shotload more than the great AB, if that doesn't make your heart hurt nothing will.

Sure but I would only rate Lillee and maybe Thommo in the same tier as James Pattinson who will be a career fill in. The rest, very good bowlers, but Patto is pretty much as good as our best bowler now. You wouldn't lose much if Cummins went down and Pattinson came in. Can't say that for Carl Rackemann or Henry Lawson and Dennis Lillee, although Rackemann was a very good cricketer and so was Henry.

I think we agree on the basic point anyway. The total stock of fast bowling globally is excellent at the moment, and it's not just fourteen West Indians and Dennis Lillee. Every country except one or two has a very good pace attack.

 

[hineyrulz]

Helluva horse blanket reunion you blokes are having