A corner turned? Is it onwards and upwards from here?

[SBD82]

Nice scenario with only 1 fact.
The other may all well be true but nothing has been said by the coach so I therefore ignore it and make decisions based on what can be proven.
I complimented Mc Fookknuckle for his stance on Dugan missing the bus so what more can I do?
I just do not abide by people making statements about players that cannot be proven and then others claiming them as facts and subsequently condemning them.
FMD there are plenty in here I can have a real blue with but if someone then picks on them without proper cause then I get in their and defend them which is just my nature (I do love a good scrap though)
I learnt along time ago if you deal with facts you will get into far less trouble and won't get left out on a limb when the other information goes pear shape or turns out to be not quite as it seems.
PS: Make sure you realise that I agree with Dugan having been dropped for missing the bus in such an important game but as for punishing him for other unproven or unsubstantiated stuff sorry no can do.

I am gauging it on the balance of probabilities. As I said, without knowing Mary and the other key players the truth is all guess work. Even a statement from the club or a news article could be half truths.

What doesn't make sense to me is that Mary decided to drop a key player for a crucial game after he missed the bus once.

The scenario that I outlined above makes far more sense imo.

 

[Old Timer]

I am gauging it on the balance of probabilities. As I said, without knowing Mary and the other key players the truth is all guess work. Even a statement from the club or a news article could be half truths.

What doesn't make sense to me is that Mary decided to drop a key player for a crucial game after he missed the bus once.

The scenario that I outlined above makes far more sense imo.

FMD you have to be going bad if your own opinion doesn't make more sense than someone else's.
I could never contemplate such a horrible outcome (TIC)
Give yourself an uppercut and have drink.
I finished off the Scotch and now starting on Mrs OT's gin I should be in a good mind space come Sunday.

 

[SBD82]

FMD you have to be going bad if your own opinion doesn't make more sense than someone else's.
I could never contemplate such a horrible outcome (TIC)
Give yourself an uppercut and have drink.
I finished off the Scotch and now starting on Mrs OT's gin I should be in a good mind space come Sunday.

Diversion OT? You're slipping mate.

 

[Old Timer]

Diversion OT? You're slipping mate.

Don't take up law as a profession your evidence will be considered circumstantial and ruled out of order.

 

[dragonssamy61]

OT you are irrepressible.

Try this for a scenario:

Dugan shows up late for training once. No big deal, shit happens.

Dugan misses the flight home. The leadership group and Mary voice their displeasure about this and outline the expectations that the team has of all its players.

Dugan misses the bus to panthers game. Player group and Mary decide that he shouldn't play as he's had fair warning.

Players and Mary want to keep discipline in house, so Mary downplays it at press conference.

Dugan Mary and senior player group sort it out together. Dugan contrite. Named for this weekend.

Without knowing duges, Mary, nighty and widdop personally, I think that's as close to the real story as you are ever likely to get.

And in this scenario, duges f**ked up (but didn't murder anyone), and the coach dealt with it swiftly, then got the team back on track.

I'll be the first to condemn Mary for his poor tactical coaching, but I think he has an old school way about his relationship with his players, and he's shown it here.

SBD
You are very close.
After the brisbane incident the senior playing group wich is widdop, nighty, frizz JDB and tommo.and Mary got the whole team together and layed down what was acceptable and what wasn't.
There has been a few thing that have happened a different time and this way every player new what was expected.
Then Duges was late again and that was that.
I agree Mary did the right thing.
Imagine what people would be saying if we had lost the game.
Mary would be crucified.
Its about time he grow a couple.

 

[SBD82]

Don't take up law as a profession your evidence will be considered circumstantial and ruled out of order.

And yours would be thrown out for relevancy.

 

[Dennis Papaioannou]

You are kidding surely ? Crush has not swept 3 years under the carpet but just highlighting this one issue and giving a objective opinion on it. This borders on Possm's obsession with Millward. Mate we all want him & his two mates gone but you damage your arguments when you don't give any credit and find the other side to any of McGregors decision making.

Wish I were kidding Den.
Happy to give credit where credit is due but the Dugan scenario goes to the heart of our problems.
Instead of being Crush's advocate can you honestly stand there and refute any of my misgivings regarding McGregor?
Everything from the way he was appointed through to an abysmal 2016 and his premature extension in 2017.
Not to mention his win loss ratio since round 8.
So even if we all agree and praise McGregor for standing down Dugan, it is a very small consolation in the scheme of things.
I just happen to have a very different view about things than you and Crush.
You and Crush obviously believe in McGregor whereas I don't.
That is what this little discussion is really about.
So if you are fair dinkum, answer this question objectively.
Do you think we can win a premiership under McGregor?

Because at the end of the day, that's all that matters.

 

[Dennis Papaioannou]

Dennis
I have posted many thing re Dugan and the issue of the bus etc
The situation from a "fact" point of view is, there is only 1 proven incident according to the coach.
That incident was bad enough for him to stand Dugan down and take a tough stance and TBPH I agree with what he did.
I applaud him for doing it and if that is praise then so be it, however if there is shit that has happened and he covered it up / tolerated it then I will remove my support and be critical of Mc Fookknuckle.
One can only be guided by the proven facts and at this time there is only 1 incident and the rest is merely innuendo and should be ignored until proven correct.
I don't think Mc Fookknuckle is either a good coach or a good man manager but I am realistic enough to understand when he has made a good call.
He made another good one today and has Mann at half, now whether that is because Mc Crone is injured and won't be even on the bench we will never know but he gets a tick from me for making the call on Mann.

I suppose I tend to be cynical and that is why I would like to know if there has been a cover up.
It goes to the heart of our inconsistency and results.
Natural justice suggests that we should deal in proven facts but questions remain unanswered.
Standing down Dugan was absolutely the right thing to do and I believe it resulted in a backs to the wall effort against Penrith.
However taking a tough stance in round 25 is too little to late in my view.
Unfortunately, I also tend to have a pretty good memory which I can't easily erase.

 

[Crush]

Wish I were kidding Den.
Happy to give credit where credit is due but the Dugan scenario goes to the heart of our problems.
Instead of being Crush's advocate can you honestly stand there and refute any of my misgivings regarding McGregor?
Everything from the way he was appointed through to an abysmal 2016 and his premature extension in 2017.
Not to mention his win loss ratio since round 8.
So even if we all agree and praise McGregor for standing down Dugan, it is a very small consolation in the scheme of things.
I just happen to have a very different view about things than you and Crush.
You and Crush obviously believe in McGregor whereas I don't.
That is what this little discussion is really about.
So if you are fair dinkum, answer this question objectively.
Do you think we can win a premiership under McGregor?

Because at the end of the day, that's all that matters.

To answer the question that you have underlined yes I think St George Illawarra can win a premiership under McGregor. Just as Souths won a competition under Madge and Cowboys won a comp under Paul Green. Manly won one under Des and Sharks won one under Flanno.
Are Madge, Green, Des, Flanno the best coaches in the comp? I don't think so. As I have said before I think Bellamy and Bennett are streets ahead of the rest of them. Are Madge, Green, Des better than Mary? In my opinion not necessarily. Not on current form at least. They have shown this year that they are struggling. Yet they have all won comps recently.
Winning a comp is not all about the coach. Yes we have a coach with less experience than most other clubs. A rookie coach. And yes he has made mistakes. But I disagree that he cannot be at the helm if we are to win a premiership.

 

[Dennis Papaioannou]

To answer the question that you have underlined yes I think St George Illawarra can win a premiership under McGregor. Just as Souths won a competition under Madge and Cowboys won a comp under Paul Green. Manly won one under Des and Sharks won one under Flanno.
Are Madge, Green, Des, Flanno the best coaches in the comp? I don't think so. As I have said before I think Bellamy and Bennett are streets ahead of the rest of them. Are Madge, Green, Des better than Mary? In my opinion not necessarily. Not on current form at least. They have shown this year that they are struggling. Yet they have all won comps recently.
Winning a comp is not all about the coach. Yes we have a coach with less experience than most other clubs. A rookie coach. And yes he has made mistakes. But I disagree that he cannot be at the helm if we are to win a premiership.

And that is why these forums exist.
We have polar opposite views and there is nothing wrong with that.
But comparing McGregor to the coaches you mention has no logical basis.
Each and every one of them are streets ahead of McGregor.
McGregor can hardly be classed as a rookie coach any more after 3 years at the helm.
I also agree that he has made mistakes but they have cost us numerous games that we could have won.
The main difference between you and me is that I am just not as forgiving.

 

[Crush]

And that is why these forums exist.
We have polar opposite views and there is nothing wrong with that.
But comparing McGregor to the coaches you mention has no logical basis.
Each and every one of them are streets ahead of McGregor.
McGregor can hardly be classed as a rookie coach any more after 3 years at the helm.
I also agree that he has made mistakes but they have cost us numerous games that we could have won.
The main difference between you and me is that I am just not as forgiving.

Purely on personnel, 1-17, coaches aside, where would you rate our team out of the 16 teams in the comp?
Take away injuries etc just our best 17 vs the rest? And you can pick your favorite 17 so you don't have to pick Marys (McCrone etc)
I would think about 7th-9th best roster.

 

[Old Timer]

Purely on personnel, 1-17, coaches aside, where would you rate our team out of the 16 teams in the comp?
Take away injuries etc just our best 17 vs the rest? And you can pick your favorite 17 so you don't have to pick Marys (McCrone etc)
I would think about 7th-9th best roster.

Our best team even now is top 6 if not top 4 but not under this coach.
We have oodles of talent that should have been developed and blooded but no we keep KFFL, Nighty, Lead pants Mc Donald not to mention Mc Crone Matthews, Marketo.
Coaches would kill to have our pack and we flogged them to death and crucified them by continually selecting shit back lines in the 2nd half of the season.
Within 2 years with proper development we are a top 4 to top 2 side.
Imagine if Mann had of been half for the season and what did the great Mc Fookknuckle say at the beginning of the pre season "3 players will be given a chance to nail down the spot" and he gave him 20 minutes.
This coach is wasteful, pig headed and will not change his ways and we will languish as a result of it.

 

[Dennis Papaioannou]

Purely on personnel, 1-17, coaches aside, where would you rate our team out of the 16 teams in the comp?
Take away injuries etc just our best 17 vs the rest? And you can pick your favorite 17 so you don't have to pick Marys (McCrone etc)
I would think about 7th-9th best roster.

I think OT has answered your question and filled in the gaps eloquently!

 

[Crush]

Our best team even now is top 6 if not top 4 but not under this coach.
We have oodles of talent that should have been developed and blooded but no we keep KFFL, Nighty, Lead pants Mc Donald not to mention Mc Crone Matthews, Marketo.
Coaches would kill to have our pack and we flogged them to death and crucified them by continually selecting shit back lines in the 2nd half of the season.
Within 2 years with proper development we are a top 4 to top 2 side.
Imagine if Mann had of been half for the season and what did the great Mc Fookknuckle say at the beginning of the pre season "3 players will be given a chance to nail down the spot" and he gave him 20 minutes.
This coach is wasteful, pig headed and will not change his ways and we will languish as a result of it.

I think Mann is still an unknown at 7. Hes played there a few games now. Had one cracker, had one shocker, had a couple OK. Its hard to guess how he would be if he'd played the whole season but lets just say hed be a good 7 if developed by a good coach this year. But would he be better than
Thurston
Cronk
Pearce
Cleary
Johnson
DCE
Reynolds
Seizer
Townsend
Probably not. Maybe better than the last couple, maybe not.
Our roster is 7th-9th best across the park. Our forwards are top 3 our halves and backs are bottom 6.
Next year will be a different story. Our halves will be top notch finally and that should push us up into the top 4-6. If it doesn't then McGregor, or McFooknuckle as you call him will be under immense pressure.

 

[Objective View]

So if you are fair dinkum, answer this question objectively.
Do you think we can win a premiership under McGregor?

No.

And that's why they call me objective view.

OV

 

[Qdf]

To answer the question that you have underlined yes I think St George Illawarra can win a premiership under McGregor. Just as Souths won a competition under Madge and Cowboys won a comp under Paul Green. Manly won one under Des and Sharks won one under Flanno.
Are Madge, Green, Des, Flanno the best coaches in the comp? I don't think so. As I have said before I think Bellamy and Bennett are streets ahead of the rest of them. Are Madge, Green, Des better than Mary? In my opinion not necessarily. Not on current form at least. They have shown this year that they are struggling. Yet they have all won comps recently.
Winning a comp is not all about the coach. Yes we have a coach with less experience than most other clubs. A rookie coach. And yes he has made mistakes. But I disagree that he cannot be at the helm if we are to win a premiership.

McGregor will never win a Grand Final at the Dragons. Not while we have this shitpot board & CEO.They pull the strings,unfortunately,& just don't have enough knowledge,or well ,put it this way they're corrupt. They have their own self interests at heart.Until this boys club is broken up,& we have knowledgeable people in charge,not much is coming our way eccept misery.

 

[grouch]

Are Madge, Green, Des better than Mary? In my opinion not necessarily.

You have officially jumped the shark.

ffs. I mean I know fans can be fickle... but this indicates a goldfish-like level of perspective and comprehension.

Maguire won a Superleague premiership with Wigan in 2010 - it was their first in 12 years. He took over a Souths team that had not even made the finals since 2007, and they won a comp 2 years later.
Hasler has reached 5 grand finals, with 2 premierships. This season is the first since 2004 that he has missed the finals.
Paul Green was an assistant to Robinson when the Roosters won the comp in 2013, and took the under-achieving Cowboys to their first premiership within 2 years of taking over.

McGregor has won some Illawarra park footy comps... and scraped the Dragons into the finals once.

 

[Old Timer]

I think Mann is still an unknown at 7. Hes played there a few games now. Had one cracker, had one shocker, had a couple OK. Its hard to guess how he would be if he'd played the whole season but lets just say hed be a good 7 if developed by a good coach this year. But would he be better than
Thurston
Cronk
Pearce
Cleary
Johnson
DCE
Reynolds
Seizer
Townsend
Probably not. Maybe better than the last couple, maybe not.
Our roster is 7th-9th best across the park. Our forwards are top 3 our halves and backs are bottom 6.
Next year will be a different story. Our halves will be top notch finally and that should push us up into the top 4-6. If it doesn't then McGregor, or McFooknuckle as you call him will be under immense pressure.

You argue this way because you think just like our coach
You are not willing to give Mann (or good juniors for that matter) a chance to develop, you just continually say he is not as good as others
The issue is, he is far better than Mc Crone and therefore would have given us much more chance in the games we lost.
This is not to mention the sharp improvements he could have made with bench usage and player selection.
How many more wins did we need to be top 4?
How many games do you think we pissed up against the wall?
So where do you think we should have finished?
You say 7th - 9th so as to justify your thinking just like Mc Fookknuckle
You just want to think we had a good year instead of casting a critical eye over what should have been a very very good year considering all the facts.

 

[SBD82]

SBD
You are very close.
After the brisbane incident the senior playing group wich is widdop, nighty, frizz JDB and tommo.and Mary got the whole team together and layed down what was acceptable and what wasn't.
There has been a few thing that have happened a different time and this way every player new what was expected.
Then Duges was late again and that was that.
I agree Mary did the right thing.
Imagine what people would be saying if we had lost the game.
Mary would be crucified.
Its about time he grow a couple.

Thanks Samy. Appreciate your input on this one. I think it gives a good perspective.

 

[denis preston]

Wish I were kidding Den.
Happy to give credit where credit is due but the Dugan scenario goes to the heart of our problems.
Instead of being Crush's advocate can you honestly stand there and refute any of my misgivings regarding McGregor?
Everything from the way he was appointed through to an abysmal 2016 and his premature extension in 2017.
Not to mention his win loss ratio since round 8.
So even if we all agree and praise McGregor for standing down Dugan, it is a very small consolation in the scheme of things.
I just happen to have a very different view about things than you and Crush.
You and Crush obviously believe in McGregor whereas I don't.
That is what this little discussion is really about.
So if you are fair dinkum, answer this question objectively.
Do you think we can win a premiership under McGregor?

Because at the end of the day, that's all that matters.

No but this is not the point . We are talking about one decision and one decision only Right or wrong. I think right. My personal view on the three amigos is they need to go elsewhere to earn their job instead of being inherited it.