A corner turned? Is it onwards and upwards from here?

[Crush]

You have officially jumped the shark.

ffs. I mean I know fans can be fickle... but this indicates a goldfish-like level of perspective and comprehension.

Maguire won a Superleague premiership with Wigan in 2010 - it was their first in 12 years. He took over a Souths team that had not even made the finals since 2007, and they won a comp 2 years later.
Hasler has reached 5 grand finals, with 2 premierships. This season is the first since 2004 that he has missed the finals.
Paul Green was an assistant to Robinson when the Roosters won the comp in 2013, and took the under-achieving Cowboys to their first premiership within 2 years of taking over.

McGregor has won some Illawarra park footy comps... and scraped the Dragons into the finals once.

So why do they suck so hard now?
Why are Des and Madge the most likely coaches to get fired this year?
Its 90% roster.
Look at Green. When Thurston is playing he is a great coach but take him out and wooooohoooo, losing streak here we come!
Answer me this. Why are Des and Madge fighting for their jobs?

 

[Crush]

You argue this way because you think just like our coach
You are not willing to give Mann (or good juniors for that matter) a chance to develop, you just continually say he is not as good as others
The issue is, he is far better than Mc Crone and therefore would have given us much more chance in the games we lost.
This is not to mention the sharp improvements he could have made with bench usage and player selection.
How many more wins did we need to be top 4?
How many games do you think we pissed up against the wall?
So where do you think we should have finished?
You say 7th - 9th so as to justify your thinking just like Mc Fookknuckle
You just want to think we had a good year instead of casting a critical eye over what should have been a very very good year considering all the facts.

Ahhh OT. We just go around and around in circles don't we? Its the same old shit from both of us. I defend Mary. You criticise Mary in a derogatory way and have a dig at my opinion like a school teacher would a pupil.
"You argue this way because......"
Listen to yourself OT Sensei

 

[Old Timer]

Ahhh OT. We just go around and around in circles don't we? Its the same old shit from both of us. I defend Mary. You criticise Mary in a derogatory way and have a dig at my opinion like a school teacher would a pupil.
"You argue this way because......"
Listen to yourself OT Sensei

I gave you some sensible questions to consider and you choose to not answer them so difficult to thrash the matter out.
When I see your posts sometimes to me it is just like listening to the coach defending the overall position without addressing the reality of the 2nd half of the season which is nothing short of horrendous as have others seasons been.
For me you can't just take the overall position and say how wonderful it all is in comparison to something else when the reality is we did something good for 10 rounds and then it all went south and the season was in jeopardy and nothing much was done to arrest it.
Good coaches with reasonable squads unless smashed by injuries or losing the dressing room don't have the long losing cycles that we incur nor should we have to listen to the piss poor explanations of it.

 

[Crush]

I gave you some sensible questions to consider and you choose to not answer them so difficult to thrash the matter out.
When I see your posts sometimes to me it is just like listening to the coach defending the overall position without addressing the reality of the 2nd half of the season which is nothing short of horrendous as have others seasons been.
For me you can't just take the overall position and say how wonderful it all is in comparison to something else when the reality is we did something good for 10 rounds and then it all went south and the season was in jeopardy and nothing much was done to arrest it.
Good coaches with reasonable squads unless smashed by injuries or losing the dressing room don't have the long losing cycles that we incur nor should we have to listen to the piss poor explanations of it.

Do you reckon the dragons can beat the dogs this weekend? Its going to be tough coming up against a coach that has made 5 grand finals and won 2 comps vs our shit coach that hasn't done shit. If the dragons do win though it'll be the superior roster right?

 

[Saints Forever]

One more win and anything is possible

Every finals opponent will take us lightly

 

[Old Timer]

Ahhh OT. We just go around and around in circles don't we? Its the same old shit from both of us. I defend Mary. You criticise Mary in a derogatory way and have a dig at my opinion like a school teacher would a pupil.
"You argue this way because......"
Listen to yourself OT Sensei

I gave you some sensible questions to consider and you choose to not answer them so difficult to thrash the matter out.
When I see your posts sometimes to me it is just like listening to the coach defending the overall position without addressing the reality of the 2nd half of the season which is nothing short of horrendous as have others seasons been.
For me you can't just take the overall position and say how wonderful it all is in comparison to something else when the reality is we did something good for 10 rounds and then it all went south and the season was in jeopardy and nothing much was done to arrest it.
Good coaches with reasonable squads unless smashed by injuries or losing the dressing room don't have the long losing cycles that we incur nor should we have to listen to the piss poor explanations of it.

Do you reckon the dragons can beat the dogs this weekend? Its going to be tough coming up against a coach that has made 5 grand finals and won 2 comps vs our shit coach that hasn't done shit. If the dragons do win though it'll be the superior roster right?

I do believe we have a chance to beat the Dogs but will reserve comment as to when the final side is announced and actually takes the field.
If Mc Fookknuckle gets cold feet he could make what I consider very bad changes.
I do believe our roster is superior to theirs and if our players take the bit between their teeth they should win.
Mary's use of the bench will have a major influence as to our chances and normally IMO his usage of the bench is detrimental to the team and that will be especially so if he has Mc Crone in the side or on the bench.
This is 1 game where 4 piggies are required and I don't think he will go that way and that severely lessens our chances IMO.
Mc Fookknuckles coaching is not great IMO but his decision making especially in crunch situations is far worse and one of the main reasons I don't consider him a good coach.
It's not always all about the skills of the players which has stats of every description to analyse, it's also very much about out manoeuvring the other coach and unfortunately we have been out manoeuvred many times and there is only 1 stat that you can evaluate that on and that is the win / loss ratio of the team.
You can poor over player stats till the cows come home but there is only 1 stat in the end that matters "where did you finish on the table".
IMO the players can win this next game but I believe Mc Fookknuckle can lose it for them it will depend on him if that happens or not.

 

[Crush]

I gave you some sensible questions to consider and you choose to not answer them so difficult to thrash the matter out.
When I see your posts sometimes to me it is just like listening to the coach defending the overall position without addressing the reality of the 2nd half of the season which is nothing short of horrendous as have others seasons been.
For me you can't just take the overall position and say how wonderful it all is in comparison to something else when the reality is we did something good for 10 rounds and then it all went south and the season was in jeopardy and nothing much was done to arrest it.
Good coaches with reasonable squads unless smashed by injuries or losing the dressing room don't have the long losing cycles that we incur nor should we have to listen to the piss poor explanations of it.

I do believe we have a chance to beat the Dogs but will reserve comment as to when the final side is announced and actually takes the field.
If Mc Fookknuckle gets cold feet he could make what I consider very bad changes.
I do believe our roster is superior to theirs and if our players take the bit between their teeth they should win.
Mary's use of the bench will have a major influence as to our chances and normally IMO his usage of the bench is detrimental to the team and that will be especially so if he has Mc Crone in the side or on the bench.
This is 1 game where 4 piggies are required and I don't think he will go that way and that severely lessens our chances IMO.
Mc Fookknuckles coaching is not great IMO but his decision making especially in crunch situations is far worse and one of the main reasons I don't consider him a good coach.
It's not always all about the skills of the players which has stats of every description to analyse, it's also very much about out manoeuvring the other coach and unfortunately we have been out manoeuvred many times and there is only 1 stat that you can evaluate that on and that is the win / loss ratio of the team.
You can poor over player stats till the cows come home but there is only 1 stat in the end that matters "where did you finish on the table".
IMO the players can win this next game but I believe Mc Fookknuckle can lose it for them it will depend on him if that happens or not.

Interesting comments.
So why has Des, a far superior coach with the ability to outwit other coaches and manage his bench effectively done so poorly this year?
If it isn't about player stats and skills of players so much, why is Des Hasler, a proven coaching legend apparently doing so poorly with such a negative win/loss ratio? I would have thought he would do better. I mean his squad aint great but it aint bad either?

 

[Old Timer]

Interesting comments.
So why has Des, a far superior coach with the ability to outwit other coaches and manage his bench effectively done so poorly this year?
If it isn't about player stats and skills of players so much, why is Des Hasler, a proven coaching legend apparently doing so poorly with such a negative win/loss ratio? I would have thought he would do better. I mean his squad aint great but it aint bad either?

Fair points you raise.
IMO I think the Dogs are a very unhappy and disjointed club and the morale is at a very ebb if not all time low.
I think similar problems are also evident at Souths and no matter how good a coach is, if there are internal troubles and player disharmony you will never be able to successfully coach around those issues.
One thing that is evident at our club is that the team harmony is a lot better under Mc Fookknuckle than Chinless and that in itself IMO is one of the main reasons we have had a better year in respect of the type of football we have played.
Harmony can get you to better places and Newcastle are starting to get on that bus as well but ultimately it will not win you the comp.

 

[Crush]

Fair points you raise.
IMO I think the Dogs are a very unhappy and disjointed club and the morale is at a very ebb if not all time low.
I think similar problems are also evident at Souths and no matter how good a coach is, if there are internal troubles and player disharmony you will never be able to successfully coach around those issues.
One thing that is evident at our club is that the team harmony is a lot better under Mc Fookknuckle than Chinless and that in itself IMO is one of the main reasons we have had a better year in respect of the type of football we have played.
Harmony can get you to better places and Newcastle are starting to get on that bus as well but ultimately it will not win you the comp.

So Des and Madge excuse is internal politics within their clubs. OK.
Whats Rickys excuse? Great squad.
Harmony. Its all rosey at Canberra. Hes won comps. Hes coached origin. He won Daley M coach of the year last year. Why can't he outwit his opponents and get his team to at least the top eight. Is Mary a better coach than Ricky?

 

[Dennis Papaioannou]

No but this is not the point . We are talking about one decision and one decision only Right or wrong. I think right. My personal view on the three amigos is they need to go elsewhere to earn their job instead of being inherited it.

We are on the same page and yes, I think McGregor did the best thing for the team by dropping Dugan on his arse.
Credit where credit is due.

 

[Old Timer]

So Des and Madge excuse is internal politics within their clubs. OK.
Whats Rickys excuse? Great squad.
Harmony. Its all rosey at Canberra. Hes won comps. Hes coached origin. He won Daley M coach of the year last year. Why can't he outwit his opponents and get his team to at least the top eight. Is Mary a better coach than Ricky?

Persistent blighter you are.
Personally I think Stuart is a dud coach with a squad that has some issues.
Stuart is a polarising character that can get some good results but can get some very ordinary one's as well.
Contract cut short at Easts despite being gifted a premiership and then failed to finish his contracts at Cronulla and Parramatta.
Take the Easts stats out and his results are pretty ordinary.
I picked Raiders to finish 2nd this year on the basis of last year and their squad but am not all that surprised they hit a wall.

 

[Old Timer]

Crush
PS: Forgot to say ricky ain't that smart either as we have Vaughan don't we?

 

[SBD82]

Persistent blighter you are.
Personally I think Stuart is a dud coach with a squad that has some issues.
Stuart is a polarising character that can get some good results but can get some very ordinary one's as well.
Contract cut short at Easts despite being gifted a premiership and then failed to finish his contracts at Cronulla and Parramatta.
Take the Easts stats out and his results are pretty ordinary.
I picked Raiders to finish 2nd this year on the basis of last year and their squad but am not all that surprised they hit a wall.

OT when you get down off your pedestal and address the issue you make some very good points.

Rickys pattern at clubs is to come in strong for the first 1 to 2 seasons, and then meltdown. Think roosters, sharks. He left them absolute messes after starting with other people's players. Only exception is parra, who were already a mess.

He is a halfs killer. Remember that he is the bloke that let Preston Campbell go, fell out with noddy, didn't want soward, and oversaw the downfall of sandow.

Seems the raiders are following the same trend. Building initial season. Big season followed. Now the slide has begun. And their halfs, who were last year being touted as SOO possibilities, wouldn't replace McCrone on form.

 

[grouch]

So why do they suck so hard now?
Why are Des and Madge the most likely coaches to get fired this year?
Its 90% roster.
Look at Green. When Thurston is playing he is a great coach but take him out and wooooohoooo, losing streak here we come!
Answer me this. Why are Des and Madge fighting for their jobs?

When you have no faith in your argument, just ask more questions. Good way to keep shifting the goalposts. Anyway, maybe they're fighting for their jobs because their respective clubs - get this - have higher standards. Shocking, I know.

As for Paul Green, not only have they lost Thurston, but they've been missing their captain and best prop all season too. Now take a look at the ladder.

 

[possm]

Based on the way the Dugan omission occurred, it was the leadership group that made the call - not McGregor.
That translated into a backs to the wall performance against a form team on their home turf.
If that is the catalyst for a change in our fortunes then it would be fantastic.
Unfortunately McGregor has made a cynic out of me.
E.g. We flogged Manly 52-22 in round 20 which many heralded as "turning the corner", "onwards and upwards" etc.
Then the following week we get rolled by Newcastle and the week after that got overrun by a Souths team out of contention and nothing to play for.
In my opinion, we lost both those games because we were poorly prepared and coached on game day.
Win those games and we are comfortably into the 8.
I hope we smash the Dogs and charge into the finals BUT I have no confidence in McGregor to deliver results in crunch games.

Mary has never paid enough attention to having the players up for the game, week in week out. He was not good with recruitment so Millward was given the job and so it's time that his performance needs to again be scrutinised with a view to employing a motivator as part of his staff.

While they are at it maybe it would be good to employ two specialist coaches; one for attack and one for defence. In that way the coaching staff could do what they do best -NOTHING!

 

[possm]

Wow Dennis you have become a one track record. Every comment comes back to your disapproval of the coach.
You obviously feel very strongly about it and I respect your opinion but I think you look for any reason to bag McGregor of late.
McGregor made the call to drop Dugan.
Did he get input from widdop and nightingale? Yes. But it was still he who made the decision.
Most of my friends who support other clubs are praising the decision to drop dugan given the circumstances but you still find reason to bag mcgregor.
It was one of the best decisions he has made all year.
Bag McGregor on his bench rotation, player selections and game tactics if you like but to say mcgregor had nothing to do with making the correct call to drop Dugan is just making you look foolish. Mary made the call. The correct call. He made a statement about the culture at dragons. And they responded.
Mary has made many mistakes but for this one surely he can be praised?
Anyway, sunday was a good win. Here's hoping we are still in the hunt next this time next week!

Nothing special about the decision to drop Dugan, it was really the only decision a coach could make. If he remained in the side, the standards would be lowered even further than what they currently are. Many on here talk about pride in the big red V, compared to Clubs like the Storm and Dragons teams of the past, this team has a long way to go when it comes to pride. Standards are set at the top and insisted on all the way down the chain. Mediocre and Dragons should never be mentioned together. Rather Mighty and Dragons were the standards that I used to know.

 

[SaintElroy]

 

[possm]

Wish I were kidding Den.
Happy to give credit where credit is due but the Dugan scenario goes to the heart of our problems.
Instead of being Crush's advocate can you honestly stand there and refute any of my misgivings regarding McGregor?
Everything from the way he was appointed through to an abysmal 2016 and his premature extension in 2017.
Not to mention his win loss ratio since round 8.
So even if we all agree and praise McGregor for standing down Dugan, it is a very small consolation in the scheme of things.
I just happen to have a very different view about things than you and Crush.
You and Crush obviously believe in McGregor whereas I don't.
That is what this little discussion is really about.
So if you are fair dinkum, answer this question objectively.
Do you think we can win a premiership under McGregor?

Because at the end of the day, that's all that matters.

If the decision was not up to 'old boys' but up to a Board of intelegent professionals, does anyone on here believe Mary's contract would have been extended as early as it was.

I'm sure the decision makers were aware that the forwards were burnt out as predicted and wanted to make a decision prior to the predicted run of losses. There is no doubt in my mind that Mary should not be coach in 2018 and the best the Board can do for Mary is to sack him and pay out is 500k a year odd contract.

 

[Overseas dragon]

Mary has never paid enough attention to having the players up for the game, week in week out. He was not good with recruitment so Millward was given the job and so it's time that his performance needs to again be scrutinised with a view to employing a motivator as part of his staff.

While they are at it maybe it would be good to employ two specialist coaches; one for attack and one for defence. In that way the coaching staff could do what they do best -NOTHING!

Don't understand why Jamie soward hasn't been given a crack at the halves .sure he would be a big help to Mann and probably Dufty also.

 

[possm]

So why do they suck so hard now?
Why are Des and Madge the most likely coaches to get fired this year?
Its 90% roster.
Look at Green. When Thurston is playing he is a great coach but take him out and wooooohoooo, losing streak here we come!
Answer me this. Why are Des and Madge fighting for their jobs?

In the Dragon's case it is not the roster, we have an excellent roster which will only improve when Hunt arrives next year. It is our Board which is the problem and only a buy out with the right conditions negotiated will sort that problem out.

It's time the Football Club Board was accountable to the Football Club Members. When that happens, these poor decisions will no longer be so prevalent.