Aboriginal and Maori WC Saga Continues

[Big Bunny]

Another point: don't you proponents think that, by definition, giving the Maori and Aborigine a go is simply racist, and therefore politically unacceptable?

Any ethnicity can be English or West Indian or Australian, but only Aboriginal tribesmen can be Aboriginal.

Aboriginal yes, but any "Aboriginal" team at the World Cup is not based on race, no matter how much you or anyone else would like to believe that.

I've said it a number of times, but people either dismiss it because it doesn't suit their flimsy beliefs, or they have failed to comprehend what has been said. But regardless of how often it's ignored, the fact remains that there are people with purely European, Asian and other backgrounds that are eligible to play for an "Aboriginal" world cup team.

Exhibit A: Edward Ogilvie. http://www.adb.online.anu.edu.au/biogs/A050411b.htm

Edward Ogilvie like many other Europeans was an initiated member of an Aboriginal nation. He spoke the language and was considered an important elder in his day. His many descendants are also considered members of the Bundjalung nation, where they choose to be, and that includes many members of the Myer shopping dynasty. They have no indigenous Australian ancestors.

They do not qualify as being "black" or "Aboriginal" but they do qualify as members of an Aboriginal nation and that is what is being discussed, not ethnicity.

Everyone on this damn thread is applying their own narrow understanding of what an Aboriginal rep team represents and without even the slightest clue on the matter and without even the slightest effort to correct that.

The Aboriginal team may look like a team based on "race" to the ignorant, but it is far from it. Torres Strait Islanders are not of the same background as mainland Aboriginals either, but they are accepted. Their acceptance in the team has nothing to do with their ethnicity, but the fact that those people are the descendants and still members of the original nations that occupied this continent and which despite the wishful thinking on this forum, never were extinguished.

If there were still a high percentage of people in Scotland that considered themselves Picts first, before Scottish or British that would be a fair comparison. an all Caucasian team however is far from similar and to suggest so is offensive and shows just how blind many of you are for the sake of your arguments.

Anyway, if this is what I am to expect from the people on this forum then I want no part of it. This is my last, I will not be returning.

 

[East Coast Tiger]

C'mon BB don't be like that. Yes most people on here don't know what they're talking about but no one is having a go at Aboriginal people. I think people who are opposed to an Aboriginal team in the WC are of that opinion because they don't believe it is the best thing for rugby league not because they have a problem with Aboriginal people. I'd love to see more Aboriginal players in the Australian team but that doesn't mean I want an Aboriginal side in the WC. Doesn't mean I don't either. Unlike most on here I'm still unsure about the Moari/Abriginal team issue. But the point is it's not a racial issue it's a rugby league issue. Don't take what people say to heart. If people on here are wrong, and they probably are, what good is it if those in the know aren't here to enlighten them.

 

[bartman]

BB, please don't take it like that if you can manage not to. Your input is too valuable here to walk away.

It is such a political issue that a forum is unfortunately never going to come together with the one shared view, just like society in a way. But as I said earlier (post 27) aside from people's personal politics, I'm struggling to understand why the inclusion of Aboriginal and Maori teams is such a big deal?

a) if included they would have to qualify for an 11/12th spot through the repecharge

b) an 11th and 12th spot would not further disadvantage any other teams in their existing known qualification paths

c) in a 12 team group structure it's easy to keep Australia and Aboriginal or New Zealand and Maori separate so they don't play each other - or together to reduce their chance of progressing further

d) people mention ridicule... is there anyone who would use the inclusion of these two teams to ridicule RL that won't just find something else about the WC to use as ridicule anyway?

e) if the decision is made to include, it should come with such clarifty about the future playing status of these teams, eg. they have been included just because it is the centenary to mark their contribution, and they will not participate in future WC tournaments. This can be used to rebutt any ridicule, and in another 4 years time if we do things right we will have developed some other RL nations to be string enough to fill an 11th or 12th spot without this debate/issue.

f) the Australia and New Zealand squads are picked first, Aboriginal and Maori sides would have to pick from the left overs

g) the playing strength is such that neither team would be a chance of making the top 4/semi finals

h) if it has the chance of getting this WC some extra (positive) domestic and international coverage, without any negative effects (see above), then why wouldn't we leap at the chance?

I agree that Beetson and the brothers should have had this discussion and meeting much earlier, as now is not the time for backflips. But, if a compelling case is made to the RLIF in terms of interest in the competition and (more likely more importantly) better financial returns (through increased gate/sponsorships) than currently predicted, then that's all I'd care about.

Instead of getting bogged down in the political sides of nationhood, opinions about how our countries and societies relate to our indigenous people - which the divisions in all our countries show that unfortunately we the population can't come together to a tolerant position - let's discuss this just in relation to the good of the game itself, and achieveing a healthy continuing developing international scene?

That way despite differing opinions we can all be involved and not feel excluded from the discussions, and I'm interested to hear from others - because I might have missed something - why this would be so damaging to the WC or RL if indeed the RLIF decides it is going to happen?

 

[LordLeague]

The best thing for international Rugby League is to have a Wales, a PNG, a France, or an Ireland sneaking into the semis and generating publicity in that country and ours, not an Aboriginal or Maori team knocking out developing nations.

Now is the time to get SMART about this World Cup. The sooner the ARL knock this one on the head the better.

Lord League

 

[International RL]

The best thing for international Rugby League is to have a Wales, a PNG, a France, or an Ireland sneaking into the semis and generating publicity in that country and ours, not an Aboriginal or Maori team knocking out developing nations.

Now is the time to get SMART about this World Cup. The sooner the ARL knock this one on the head the better.

Lord League

Yep. I know people are getting hot under the collar about this because of the racial tensions etc...but as East Coast said, this is a RUGBY LEAGUE decision. For the betterment of the code we need this issue to remain as it is, and not have these teams included. No matter what 'technical' application you wish to give it BB, these 2 teams ARE NOT considered 'nations' by the general public (and theyre the people who will vote on the credibility of the cup with their feet) and therefore we can't include them, despite your protestations. This is about the credibility and future viability of the code. It is going forward and really doesn't need to give up this kind of 'free shot' to its knockers.

 

[Nook]

Anyway, if this is what I am to expect from the people on this forum then I want no part of it. This is my last, I will not be returning.

What a lame flounce.

Fact is that the general gut reaction here is that Aboriginal/Maori teams shouldn't be included. It'd be a blow to the credibility of thethe tournament in my opinion. That isn't a slight on anyone's background or beliefs, just an instinctive reaction that is far from atypical. Fair enough if you disagree but "you are all too stupid to understand why I am right, I'm leaving" is a bit rich.

 

[Nook]

Oh, and just spotted a "you are all stinking racists" line, too.

despite the wishful thinking on this forum, never were extinguished.

Wonderful.

 

[Ari Gold]

Half page article in Daily Telegraph's Maingame section this morning discussing solely on this issue... great article by Mascord, makes me think he was reading this very forum by some of the comments he made.

 

[griff]

What is Mascord's take?

I think it is about what is best for rugby league - if it was best for rugby league for Maori and Aboriginal teams to be in the WC, then I would be for it. But it so clearly isn't. It would only be slightly less damaging than having separate NSW and Qld teams in the WC.

To have a petulant outburst and take your bat and ball and go home because people disagree with you is ridiculous. Calling them racist for disagreeing with you is worse.

 

[Copa]

Aboriginal yes, but any "Aboriginal" team at the World Cup is not based on race, no matter how much you or anyone else would like to believe that.

I've said it a number of times, but people either dismiss it because it doesn't suit their flimsy beliefs, or they have failed to comprehend what has been said. But regardless of how often it's ignored, the fact remains that there are people with purely European, Asian and other backgrounds that are eligible to play for an "Aboriginal" world cup team.

Exhibit A: Edward Ogilvie. http://www.adb.online.anu.edu.au/biogs/A050411b.htm

Edward Ogilvie like many other Europeans was an initiated member of an Aboriginal nation. He spoke the language and was considered an important elder in his day. His many descendants are also considered members of the Bundjalung nation, where they choose to be, and that includes many members of the Myer shopping dynasty. They have no indigenous Australian ancestors.

They do not qualify as being "black" or "Aboriginal" but they do qualify as members of an Aboriginal nation and that is what is being discussed, not ethnicity.

Everyone on this damn thread is applying their own narrow understanding of what an Aboriginal rep team represents and without even the slightest clue on the matter and without even the slightest effort to correct that.

The Aboriginal team may look like a team based on "race" to the ignorant, but it is far from it. Torres Strait Islanders are not of the same background as mainland Aboriginals either, but they are accepted. Their acceptance in the team has nothing to do with their ethnicity, but the fact that those people are the descendants and still members of the original nations that occupied this continent and which despite the wishful thinking on this forum, never were extinguished.

If there were still a high percentage of people in Scotland that considered themselves Picts first, before Scottish or British that would be a fair comparison. an all Caucasian team however is far from similar and to suggest so is offensive and shows just how blind many of you are for the sake of your arguments.

Anyway, if this is what I am to expect from the people on this forum then I want no part of it. This is my last, I will not be returning.

I think some on here just assume Australian indigenous nations are incapable of granting "citizenship" (for want of a better term) to others.

 

[bartman]

I think people are being a bit tough on Big Bunny here? In his final post #61 he quotes a post specifically asking the question whether having the teams is racist. He's given his own answer to the question and addressed the racial issue but then been attacked for doing so with his different persepctive? Since when did this forum turn into TFC?

Since I asked the question (post #63) trying to find out why - other than personal politics - people are so against this scenario if it happens and why they think it's bad for RL/WC, the only reasons given seem to be:
a) it would be better to have a developing nation team sneak into the semis than an Aboriginal or Maori team doing it
b) the public reaction/gut instinct (?) doesn't recognise these as nations so it would effect credibility

Regarding a) I don't think there's any possibility of that happening due to relative playing strength and the way the groups can be minipulated to make that less of a chance. Regarding b) just thinking about what's good for the game means I think about interest, coverage, crowds, and viewers. Whether we like it or not there would be people out their like Mark Geyer who would be more interested in Preston Campbell or getting a run than watching Lebanon or Wales play. One person's loss of credibility is another person's reason to get involved and participate, it's a fien balance and comes back to the financials.

I'd rather the inclusion of the two teams didn't happen because the debate about it should have been done much earlier, and to change now would mean changing the agreed structure and that just makes the WC look disorganised.

But, given the RLIF have granted the brothers a hearing on the 18th, they must be willing to consider if it can be good for the game, and if they decide is it (or it isn't) then can't we get behind the decision (whatever it is) for the sake of the WC and RL?

 

[JasonE]

Not sure if anyone else here heard Tas Baiteri on 2sm yesterday morning but he said that the Aboriginal side and Maori side will definitely not be in the WC 2008.

 

[griff]

bartman there is no doubt that having an Aboriginal and a Maori side would lead to a better quality of rugby league on display at RLWC. But as we have seen, the success of RLWC 08 will have much less to do with the quality of RL and much more to do with whether or not RL is seen as a legitimate international sport. Having Aboriginal and Maori teams would make it be seen as a joke.

 

[International RL]

Not sure if anyone else here heard Tas Baiteri on 2sm yesterday morning but he said that the Aboriginal side and Maori side will definitely not be in the WC 2008.

 

[Nook]

Not sure if anyone else here heard Tas Baiteri on 2sm yesterday morning but he said that the Aboriginal side and Maori side will definitely not be in the WC 2008

Thank the Lord. Now let's get some lead up games involving these two teams organised and move on.