AFL 2005 - Round 18

[CyberKev]

If they finish third I don't know they would win an away Qualifying Final.

That puts them in Perth for a prelim.

Even with a win, the travel home could be a factor on GF day if they had to play a hard team like Adelaide.

Mate,

St Kilda will absolutely destricate the Crows anywhere and everywhere should they, as seems increasingly likely, get to play them first-up in September.

From there its an MCG prelim final, and the sweet, sweet surrounds of beautiful hometown Melbourne for the GF the following week.

Get your money on...

 

[CyberKev]

As opposed to your Hawthorn Love-In?

The day you admit the failings of Hawthorn ...

Hawthorn Love-In?

Starting out in the preseason by claiming them good things for the spoon and bagging them brutally in at least 80% of my postings regarding them throughout the season!!!

There's scarcely a bigger internal critic than I, so I don't know what posts you've been reading all year??!! :?

Griffen was f**king sensational on Saturday night by the way.

Actually, Cooney was sensational and Griffen stood up nicely during the final term. You're way too liberal with the OTT hyperbole, mate.

I never doubted Griffen would be a top footballer, given that he was my projected number 1 pick prior to last season's draft.

With Hodge, Mitchell, Lewis & Bateman in the midfield (and Crawford probably having 2-3 years left) our midfield was never the major concern, and will be close enough to the Hounds anyway by the time we take another elite youngster in the upcoming draft.

At this point, the Hounds can't say that their developing tall stocks look as sound as Hawthorn's though, despite having several years up on us in rebuilding terms.

I was super impressed with the topliners on offer last season, but every year you always get a few topline midfielders. The chance to get two gun KPP youngsters when your stocks are dwindling is as rare an opportunity as you get.

Its also very clear that Franklin & Roughead are better KPP prospects than have been available in drafts subsequent to the Reiwoldt/Kozitschke draft. There was much talk, usually stemming from Tiger fans, about the crop expected from this season being significantly better, but performances at the carnival and in U-18 performances to date have not served to give this view any sound credence. Which isn't to suggest that the likes of Dowler & Clark won't develop into strong players, although you'll still need to be among the top five picks to get them.

@ 21 years of age Tim Walsh has played only a solitary game with the Hounds despite being taken @4. Jay Shulz, also a 21 year old, has averaged 5 possessions a game in his career to date. Luke Molan never played a game with Melbourne despite being taken @ 8 several season's back. To have two 18 year old talls (both of whom were still eligible for the TAC competition) playing senior football each week and averaging possessions in the teens is a sensational effort. Tim Walsh has, to date, been a failure, but he's the exception to the rule that has seen top notch young KPPs go on to be top notch KPP at AFL level.

We got the best two young KPP in the land + the 2nd best inside midfielder. Richmond got the best three young outside midfielders on offer. The Hounds got the best young inside midfielder on offer + a project tall. Griffen is great, but their KPP straits are dire and they had to take a death or glory punt on Williams because the only two strong KPP prospects in the country were already gone.

The always take the BEST player on offer ideology is nice in theory, but it is totally out of kilter with club practices throughout VFL/AFL history and dangerously extraneous to crucial issues of team balance. Not to mention that player rankings are arbitrary affairs anyway, particularly allowing for the fact that young midfielders will look better than young KPP 99% of the time because young talls develop at a slower pace.

At any rate, the flexibility of the take the "BEST" player ideology will be all too apparent this draft when both the Bulldogs and the Tigers take the best tall available when their first pick happens along.

I on the other hand can take the blinkers and slam Richmond for what was a totally shameful day.

Every single f**king result falls our way and we lose to Carlton.

Yes, occasionally even you take some rare time out to criticise your own club. Its not a common occurence, but credit where it is due.

I didn't think the Fremantle result went your way though, hence the 8-point game coming up this weekend.

=Although I must admit, a co-worker (Hawthorn Supporter) said to me this morning "You said last week that it would happen, brought it on yourself) lol

It doesn't pay to write any team off in this competition, unless that team happens to be Hawthorn playing West Coast in Perth or Brisbane at the Gabba!

Finals certainties in 2006.

Finals possibilities in 2006, provided Richo stays healthy, no more, no less.

 

[meltiger]

Finals possibilities in 2006, provided Richo stays healthy, no more, no less.

I actually meant Footscray lol

Richmond will make it. Another full pre-season under the kids belts, including hopefully an uninterupted pre-season for young Tambling and we will get a lot better.

We lost to West Coast by 2 points after being cheated, would have beaten Port @ AAMI (Which is still difficult) if we had of played 4 quarters and have beaten Sydney. We are good enough when firing.

 

[meltiger]

I agree with you on Cooney. He is quickly developing into one of my favoruite players though I must say. I love watching him play. There are better miedfielders around but his game is exciting.

I actually do disagree on Griffen. I thought his game was absoloutely sensational and bobbed up exactly where his team needed him. Not much more you can ask. He is ahead of Deledio, but Deledio is also a year younger (Which is why Deledio is a Tiger and not Griffen)

The Fremantle result didn't go our way but wouldn't have been been such a key game had we won. We would have been a game clear of Melbourne/Brisbane and really only needing two more wins to beat them both home.

We now need 3 more wins to beat them both home.

I'm always critical of them, I have just never beleived that the team is as bad as most of the football world believes they are - This year they have proven that and honestly it is only bad coaching that has led them to look as bad as they have. Yesterday they reverted to the Danny Frawley game plan when the crunch came and got spanked. The week before they played the Wallace game plan when the crunch came and nearly pulled off a win interstate from a long way back. More time under Wallace and the less we will see of disasters like yesterday.

& I'm never going to be overly critical of them ... I had to spend enough time around moronic Richmond supporters bagging Wallace yesterday to buy into the 'Eat our own mentality' - I fail to see how it was Wallace's fault we were getting creamed in the Centre - I mean, really, who was he supposed to put there?

 

[CyberKev]

I actually meant Footscray lol

Quite possibly, but they will be hoping that Darcy & Grant hold-up.

Richmond will make it. Another full pre-season under the kids belts, including hopefully an uninterupted pre-season for young Tambling and we will get a lot better.

Richmond will need to guard against the Carlton back-up possibility. Carlton were also carried largely last season by experienced players like Richo, Brown, Gaspar & Campbell, only too fall away when form from such players couldn't be sustained over the next season. The youngsters at Richmond are the least part of the overall Tiger 2006 equation.

We lost to West Coast by 2 points after being cheated, would have beaten Port @ AAMI (Which is still difficult) if we had of played 4 quarters and have beaten Sydney. We are good enough when firing.

So are most sides. Richmond's record in close games over the past two season's is surely the best in the competition. Richmond have been belted in as many, if not more games than Hawthorn, but are five games clear because they are sitting at +2 on the close games ledger (matches won by 2 goals or less) compared with -3 for Hawthorn. I have no doubt that had we a strong tall and experienced player at CHF during those 3 games, we'd be +3 on that ledger. We would have also won the game against Richmond earlier in the season and the first-up clash with the Kangas, but its all cherries & nuts stuff because we didn't.

I suggest you wait for Richmond to negotiate the next month first, before even thinking about next season.

 

[meltiger]

I have no doubt that had we a strong tall and experienced player at CHF during those 3 games, we'd be +3 on that ledger.

You mean if you had Holland at CHF rather than playing Franklin & played more direct footy??? ...................................

 

[CyberKev]

You mean if you had Holland at CHF rather than playing Franklin & played more direct footy??? ...................................

Lance Franklin's debut sixteen games:

Kicks: 114
H-Balls: 62
Poss: 176
Marks: 65
Tackles: 35
Hit Outs: 0
Goals: 16
Behinds: 10

Nick Holland's last sixteen games:

Kicks: 94
H-Balls: 54
Poss: 148
Marks: 84
Tackles: 14
Hit Outs: 9
Goals: 8
Behinds: 6

Hmmm...

Yep, I think Holland would have given us so much more.

John Barker's last sixteen games:

Kicks: 91
H-Balls: 68
Poss: 159
Marks: 65
Tackles: 12
Hit Outs: 0
Goals: 9
Behinds: 5

And Barker would be a much better option, were he ever fit, clearly.

In a previous post you asked me to compare Deledio's debut figures with Judd's, so given that one J.Brown is arguably the MVP of the competition right now, I thought I'd show his debut season stats to compare with Buddy's:

Johnathan Brown's debut season (13 games):

Kicks: 82
H-Balls: 41
Poss: 123
Marks: 47
Tackles: 11
Hit Outs: 22
Goals: 5
Behinds: 2

Stacks-up pretty nicely, one would think, particularly allowing for Brown's far sturdier body shape as an 18 year old.

I think Tiger fans need to get over their Buddy phobia.

 

[meltiger]

I think Tiger fans need to get over their Buddy phobia.

Theres no "Buddy Phobia"

What we have on the other hand been listening to for the entire season, is ranting by f**kwit Hawthorn supporters about just how great Franklin is.

Maybe one day when he decides he needs a defensive side to his game, then the ferals from the family club can speak so highly about him.

& my apologies I'll correct myself.... Thompson.

 

[CyberKev]

Theres no "Buddy Phobia"

What we have on the other hand been listening to for the entire season, is ranting by f**kwit Hawthorn supporters about just how great Franklin is.

Maybe one day when he decides he needs a defensive side to his game, then the ferals from the family club can speak so highly about him.

& my apologies I'll correct myself.... Thompson.

1) Much of the talk surrounding Franklin actually emenated from the media, and was far more widespread earlier in the season.

2) Any Hawk fan ranting about Franklin absolutely pales in comparison to the collective creaming over Deledio by Tiger tragics. I've never seen anything to match it.

3) Franklin not only has the best defensive game, to this point, of any of the gun draftees from last season, but also of any debutant key forward tall that I've seen in many a long year. He is regularly lauded by commentators for his tackling and commitment to 1%ers.

Digging yourself in deeper, Craig Old Son! :lol:

You do have something to work with when you speak of the Hawk gameplan. This is hardly a fault of Franklin's, but moreover a further restriction on his capacity to contribute. Where he needs to improve is in his contested marking and toning down his tendency to try and do to much with the ball. Its hard to work on the former when you're constantly bypassed for Williams and, at times in recent weeks, Croad. Given another preseason and a few extra kilos under the belt (he's expected to put on another 10 by 2007) I suspect he won't be regularly bypassed by our midfield for long. Extra weight and experience will ensure he is more judicious with the latter element, and more effective at it.

Thompson? You could be referring to me, but I suspect that you may be alluding to Mr Nathan Thompson.

No doubt, we'd be a bit better off this season, and may even have been able to find ourselves hovering around positions 9-10. In real terms, I suspect he awould have largely snaffled goals that Williams has got this season, so its also possible that the improvement may not necessarily have been significant. At any rate, he made it clear he was leaving and we worked a fab deal for him. There's little doubt that both Franklin & Roughead will be better footballers than Thommo inside a few years anyway.

The positive point of Thompson leaving as that it has allowed Williams extra exposure and has provided him with plenty of confidence for when he slots back into a pocket. Given his capacity to mark like a tall, but also crumb at ground level, he'll be able to add an extra dimension to the Hawk forward line from next season onwards.

That is all for now, Thank you.

 

[camsmith]

It was pretty funny the other day, i was talking to someone who said they got with an AFL footballer.... obviously i asked who and sure enough it was Buddy Franklin.

Lucky man

 

[incomparable]

Hey Craig, stop dragging yourself down to Kev's level. We all should know that him being a Hathorn supporter and us being Richmond supporters meeans that he MUST be RIGHT and we MUST be WRONG.

Umm if I remember rightly, Deledio would have been the Number 1 draft pick no matter who had the first pick.

My cousin is a Hawhtorn supporter and he has a realistic view. It doesn't matter if you have 2 or 3 good young KPP, as if you don't have the midfielders to kick the ball down there, they aren't going to do anything.

Hawthorn's problem is their midfield and the lacking of, or having the ability to, being able to kick the ball long down to these great young KPP prospects. Young KPP may be good but unless they turn into the same as the two from St.Kilda, they will remain where they are on the ladder.

I personally like Deledio as a player, but don't go presuming that all tiger supporters think that he is the answer. He is only part of the answer to a midfield which is very slow . We would be at least 2 years away from possibly thinking that could realisticly thinking we could win the grand final. There is no way the hawks could make such a statement at the moment.

 

[CyberKev]

Hey Craig, stop dragging yourself down to Kev's level. We all should know that him being a Hathorn supporter and us being Richmond supporters meeans that he MUST be RIGHT and we MUST be WRONG.

It has nothing to do with me being right or wrong. The vast majority of the footballing world sees Franklin as a massive prospect and his performances this year are either on pace with or ahead of the game's gun forward KPPs at the same stage.

Umm if I remember rightly, Deledio would have been the Number 1 draft pick no matter who had the first pick.

You remember wrongly. Many clubs spoke before the draft of taking Griffen first if they had the option. At any rate, arbitrary player number selections are irrelevant to future player development anyway. Its also common that young talls develop a couple of years behind midfield types (9 times in 10), which means that young midfielders will almost always be ranked ahead of young KPP at 18 years of age. It is similarly true that young KPP taken as elite youngsters rarely fail to come on, whilst young KPP taken with lower speculative picks rarely stand out. Revised drafting procedures with a greater emphasis on physical & psychological elements have only served to reinforce this. The lesson is that if you want a Richo, Neitz or Tredrea then you better pick-up young KPP in the opening handful of picks. Nathan Thompson is probably the best example of a young KPP doing well from outside the elite, but even he has only been able to reach the top of the second tier. He was also recruited years ago when the system was nowhere near as advanced as it is today.

My cousin is a Hawhtorn supporter and he has a realistic view. It doesn't matter if you have 2 or 3 good young KPP, as if you don't have the midfielders to kick the ball down there, they aren't going to do anything.

Your cousin is out of kilter with common and reasoned football thought. You can't kick to tall forwards if you don't have any.

Hawthorn's problem is their midfield and the lacking of, or having the ability to, being able to kick the ball long down to these great young KPP prospects. Young KPP may be good but unless they turn into the same as the two from St.Kilda, they will remain where they are on the ladder.

This midfield containing: Hodge, Mitchell, Crawford, Bateman & Lewis already and with another young gun to come. Yep, lots of problems there. :roll:

Presumably the Saints were being told that if young rookie Reiwoldt doesn't turn out like Carey then they were wasting their time picking him. What a moronic statement.

How many of your current hot young KPP crop are going to turn out like Richo, I wonder? Perhaps you'd best send them all packing and replace them with peripheral smalls and mids because they're safer options.

I personally like Deledio as a player, but don't go presuming that all tiger supporters think that he is the answer. He is only part of the answer to a midfield which is very slow . We would be at least 2 years away from possibly thinking that could realisticly thinking we could win the grand final. There is no way the hawks could make such a statement at the moment.

I'd be very surprised if either side got within a GF in the next two years, but I'm not silly enough to think in those terms anyway. I will say one thing, if you think that Richmond are miles ahead of Hawthorn in future terms, then you're kidding yourself bigtime.

Deledio & Tambling were fine pick-ups, but if you think for a second that Franklin & Roughead are duds that Wallace wouldn't kill to have on his list then you either don't have a clue about football or you're lying to yourself, or both.