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Australia won't win 2022 WC

The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
5,867
Why? Nationalism is a relatively new concept. Societies aren’t going to fall apart because they’re not culturally homogenous.
The age of nationalism as a concept doesn't change the fact that international sport was not only a product of it, but is intrinsically linked to it, and that a move away from it to ethnic teams is creating problems that will be toxic not only for the sport, but for society more broadly. Need I remind you of the problems our society has had with ethnic clubs in the past? Imagine those, but on a larger scale and with people openly questioning whether or not members of certain ethnicities are even qualified to count as Australians at all.

Take this article for example-https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-11...tween-two-worlds-in-world-cup-final/101676894. Australia's goal should be for all of those people of Samoan heritage to become Australians, not to be creating Samoan enclaves within Australia where any member that attempts to integrate with Australian society is denounced as something akin to a race traitor.

It's hard to express just how damaging attitudes like those expressed towards Fa'asuamaleaui in the above article can be on a society, and if we continue down this path they'll only get worse and will inevitably lead to some form of backlash from the majority which is best avoided. In other words, there's blood in the water and the sharks are circling, so maybe we should stop chumming the water before there's an attack.

BTW, nationalism is a requirement to have a functional liberal democracy, so I wouldn't be surprised if you do start to see some western liberal societies start to disintegrate, or at least start to suffer significant cultural issues and conflict that they didn't previously suffer. In fact I think that it could pretty easily be argued that many nations (particularly in Europe) are already starting to show signs of that happening.
It’s really no different?
No, not at all really.

In both cases it's people co-opting the identity of people from other countries using an often very tenuous link within their heritage. It's like they want all of the benefits of being a member of one nation or society, without having to be directly associated with said nation or society. There's often an air of exoticism to it as well, a kind of "look at me, I'm unique and interesting, not like you other boring people" sort of thing, which is fake and cringy, and is often expressed exclusively in the form of stereotypes.

More often than not they're co-opting it for some sort of social benefit as well, such as in this case where a bunch of relatively rich men from first world nations are taking once in a lifetime opportunities from relatively poor men from third world nations.
 
Messages
12,166
Whatever you say lol.
Whatever I say huh? Well what I say is this. We were straight up robbed.

1. Our teams flight home was booked the day after the game.
2. We dominated the first half.
3. Klein was obviously reminded at halftime that NZ are supposed to exit at this stage, so at the start of the second half it was penalty, penalty, penalty, six again, six again, penalty, penalty with the Kangaroos being piggy-backed up the field cos their pack couldn't do it alone.
4. Rapana was onside.
5. The penalty Grant got which lead to Murray's try was bullshit.
 

RedVee_8

Juniors
Messages
341
The age of nationalism as a concept doesn't change the fact that international sport was not only a product of it, but is intrinsically linked to it, and that a move away from it to ethnic teams is creating problems that will be toxic not only for the sport, but for society more broadly. Need I remind you of the problems our society has had with ethnic clubs in the past? Imagine those, but on a larger scale and with people openly questioning whether or not members of certain ethnicities are even qualified to count as Australians at all.

Take this article for example-https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-11...tween-two-worlds-in-world-cup-final/101676894. Australia's goal should be for all of those people of Samoan heritage to become Australians, not to be creating Samoan enclaves within Australia where any member that attempts to integrate with Australian society is denounced as something akin to a race traitor.

It's hard to express just how damaging attitudes like those expressed towards Fa'asuamaleaui in the above article can be on a society, and if we continue down this path they'll only get worse and will inevitably lead to some form of backlash from the majority which is best avoided. In other words, there's blood in the water and the sharks are circling, so maybe we should stop chumming the water before there's an attack.

BTW, nationalism is a requirement to have a functional liberal democracy, so I wouldn't be surprised if you do start to see some western liberal societies start to disintegrate, or at least start to suffer significant cultural issues and conflict that they didn't previously suffer. In fact I think that it could pretty easily be argued that many nations (particularly in Europe) are already starting to show signs of that happening.

No, not at all really.

In both cases it's people co-opting the identity of people from other countries using an often very tenuous link within their heritage. It's like they want all of the benefits of being a member of one nation or society, without having to be directly associated with said nation or society. There's often an air of exoticism to it as well, a kind of "look at me, I'm unique and interesting, not like you other boring people" sort of thing, which is fake and cringy, and is often expressed exclusively in the form of stereotypes.

More often than not they're co-opting it for some sort of social benefit as well, such as in this case where a bunch of relatively rich men from first world nations are taking once in a lifetime opportunities from relatively poor men from third world nations.
I watched the 5:30 am full game replay. Some time after I flicked over to 9 and they went out to the Samoan celebration at Whalan. The gathering sang Advance Australia Fair and followed it with Aussie Aussie Aussie Oi Oi Oi.
After grimacing a little at the Oi Oi Oi, it did make me smile a little. I had been a bit concerned about the rush away from Australia to the PI nations, wondering when if ever they would start to feel Australian. Maybe some do, at least for this game where they ‘couldn’t lose’. Later I watched the pregame show (I’d recorded it) and Big Tino was singing the anthem.

I’m happy for them. The players really did something for their communities. Who would have expected RL to get such coverage?

The people abusing Tino is not something I would get behind. He has every right to choose which heritage he wanted to play for. He did, so Good on him.
 

Mr Angry

Not a Referee
Messages
49,099
Not sure on the kiwi conspiracy, but for the final the true final was the semi.

Unsuprisng we won, blame the ref, you were not clear winners nor were we.

The fact remains it is stupid hard to score against Australia always has been.

It is how you Tests, Origins and Grand Finals are won.

You know this to be true.

Stacey beat us once, ask Darren Lockyer, only tri-nations but.


Lol Fitz is our coach now.

Then Shaun did it, much points that day.


Kiwis only challenge, for at least one generation, England and France once beat us, they are soccer, NZ kickby.

We can be beat, not this time.
 

taste2taste

Juniors
Messages
947
I watched the 5:30 am full game replay. Some time after I flicked over to 9 and they went out to the Samoan celebration at Whalan. The gathering sang Advance Australia Fair and followed it with Aussie Aussie Aussie Oi Oi Oi.
After grimacing a little at the Oi Oi Oi, it did make me smile a little. I had been a bit concerned about the rush away from Australia to the PI nations, wondering when if ever they would start to feel Australian. Maybe some do, at least for this game where they ‘couldn’t lose’. Later I watched the pregame show (I’d recorded it) and Big Tino was singing the anthem.

I’m happy for them. The players really did something for their communities. Who would have expected RL to get such coverage?

The people abusing Tino is not something I would get behind. He has every right to choose which heritage he wanted to play for. He did, so Good on him.
Players who qualify for 2 countries are put in an incredibly difficult position.
They can't win, play for Australia you cop it, play for the islands you cop it.

As Joey Johns says, play for the country you'd cry for singing the anthem.

I support Nanai playing for Australia just as much as I support To'o playing for samoa.
 

Smug Panther

First Grade
Messages
6,855
Whatever I say huh? Well what I say is this. We were straight up robbed.

1. Our teams flight home was booked the day after the game.
2. We dominated the first half.
3. Klein was obviously reminded at halftime that NZ are supposed to exit at this stage, so at the start of the second half it was penalty, penalty, penalty, six again, six again, penalty, penalty with the Kangaroos being piggy-backed up the field cos their pack couldn't do it alone.
4. Rapana was onside.
5. The penalty Grant got which lead to Murray's try was bullshit.
He wasn't close to onside
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
52,911
Maybe they're not as bog average as you'd like to believe...

I reckon the Kangaroos would figure out the kinks pretty quickly if they played together more regularly.


Whatever you say lol.
Having watched Kangaroo sides since 1980 they look pretty avg to me in comparison.
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
52,911
Whatever I say huh? Well what I say is this. We were straight up robbed.

1. Our teams flight home was booked the day after the game.
2. We dominated the first half.
3. Klein was obviously reminded at halftime that NZ are supposed to exit at this stage, so at the start of the second half it was penalty, penalty, penalty, six again, six again, penalty, penalty with the Kangaroos being piggy-backed up the field cos their pack couldn't do it alone.
4. Rapana was onside.
5. The penalty Grant got which lead to Murray's try was bullshit.
Must admit there was a period when NZ were in front were ref piggy backed them out of their half with an offside penalty (seriously giving an offside penalty in any game these days is a joke) then a six again and penalty and then they scored to take the lead and werent behind again. At the time I said it looked very suss. Having said that the NZ time were good enough that it shouldn't have even been close. They choked massively imo.
 

Gobsmacked

Juniors
Messages
375
Must admit there was a period when NZ were in front were ref piggy backed them out of their half with an offside penalty (seriously giving an offside penalty in any game these days is a joke) then a six again and penalty and then they scored to take the lead and werent behind again. At the time I said it looked very suss. Having said that the NZ time were good enough that it shouldn't have even been close. They choked massively imo.
Definitely gased the kiwis the 6 agains and penalties. But it's a fine line whether or not they were warranted. Sometimes it's the first one that leads to more ( chasing their tale). They should have been able to reset and compose themselves so early into the second half.
I still believe the coach lost that one. He f**ked up the forwards rotation. The Cheese should have come off a the 30 minute mark and been brought back on at the 50. Foran shouldn't have been picked really, offered nothing at 9. LEOTA and FISHER-HARRIS should have started a full clip for the first 20... then it would have been the very effective back row of Australia that was gased
 
Messages
4,210
Going by your logic 99% of international teams in all sports would be seen as a piss-take.

I was born in Australia to Australian Anglo parents. I grew up in France, Germany, Australia, and the UK. I lived most of my late teens and adult life in the UK. I currently live in Australia. I am a British Citizen. Am I not British by your standards?

Don't twist the conversation away from your original statement, which was incorrect as I have pointed out below.
Appears to me mostly actual dinkum Japanese, with a few qualifying by residence.

Kotaro Matsushima - South African
Dylan Riley - Australian
Siosaia Fifita - Tongan
Tevita Tatafu - Tongan
Michael Leitch - New Zealander
Jack Cornelsen - Australian
Warner Dearns - New Zealander
Jiwon Gu - Korean
Craig Millar - New Zealander
Faulua Makisi - Tongan
Seungsin Lee - Korean
Gerhard van den Heever - South African
 
Messages
4,210
Which is irrelevant to how eligibility works. You're having a shot at the Japanese team yet you're supporting teams that have players who have never been to the country they're playing for before representing them. Under the eligibility rules I don't have a problem with that, nor do I have a problem with Leitch representing Japan, a country he's lived in for 20 years and a culture he's been part of for 20 years.

On Luai I think he's only a grandparent selection for Samoa. His kid wont be eligible for Samoa under current eligibility rules.
I am not actually having a shot at the Japanese Union team, good on them. I am responding to a posters ridiculous statement that the team is mostly full of actual Japanese which it's not.
 

The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
5,867
Whatever I say huh? Well what I say is this. We were straight up robbed.

1. Our teams flight home was booked the day after the game.
2. We dominated the first half.
3. Klein was obviously reminded at halftime that NZ are supposed to exit at this stage, so at the start of the second half it was penalty, penalty, penalty, six again, six again, penalty, penalty with the Kangaroos being piggy-backed up the field cos their pack couldn't do it alone.
4. Rapana was onside.
5. The penalty Grant got which lead to Murray's try was bullshit.
Definitely whatever you say lol.
 

Tigers1986

Juniors
Messages
1,282

Let's hope somebody (IRL) gets this going and we make a fist of it.

Reduce the NRL and SL seasons (27 rounds is too long). Keep Origin. International window at the end of the season. Maybe like Rugby with the Autumn tour, we run a Spring tour? Australia, Samoa, Tonga, NZ, Fiji play each other for rankings points on a bi-annual cycle. One year is world cup and the other year is a Kangaroos tour
 

Smug Panther

First Grade
Messages
6,855

Let's hope somebody (IRL) gets this going and we make a fist of it.

Reduce the NRL and SL seasons (27 rounds is too long). Keep Origin. International window at the end of the season. Maybe like Rugby with the Autumn tour, we run a Spring tour? Australia, Samoa, Tonga, NZ, Fiji play each other for rankings points on a bi-annual cycle. One year is world cup and the other year is a Kangaroos tour
Long LONG term playing each side once in the NRL would be perfect. Probably need another 3 sides
 

SBD82

Coach
Messages
16,073
The age of nationalism as a concept doesn't change the fact that international sport was not only a product of it, but is intrinsically linked to it, and that a move away from it to ethnic teams is creating problems that will be toxic not only for the sport, but for society more broadly. Need I remind you of the problems our society has had with ethnic clubs in the past? Imagine those, but on a larger scale and with people openly questioning whether or not members of certain ethnicities are even qualified to count as Australians at all.

Take this article for example-https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-11...tween-two-worlds-in-world-cup-final/101676894. Australia's goal should be for all of those people of Samoan heritage to become Australians, not to be creating Samoan enclaves within Australia where any member that attempts to integrate with Australian society is denounced as something akin to a race traitor.

It's hard to express just how damaging attitudes like those expressed towards Fa'asuamaleaui in the above article can be on a society, and if we continue down this path they'll only get worse and will inevitably lead to some form of backlash from the majority which is best avoided. In other words, there's blood in the water and the sharks are circling, so maybe we should stop chumming the water before there's an attack.

BTW, nationalism is a requirement to have a functional liberal democracy, so I wouldn't be surprised if you do start to see some western liberal societies start to disintegrate, or at least start to suffer significant cultural issues and conflict that they didn't previously suffer. In fact I think that it could pretty easily be argued that many nations (particularly in Europe) are already starting to show signs of that happening.

No, not at all really.

In both cases it's people co-opting the identity of people from other countries using an often very tenuous link within their heritage. It's like they want all of the benefits of being a member of one nation or society, without having to be directly associated with said nation or society. There's often an air of exoticism to it as well, a kind of "look at me, I'm unique and interesting, not like you other boring people" sort of thing, which is fake and cringy, and is often expressed exclusively in the form of stereotypes.

More often than not they're co-opting it for some sort of social benefit as well, such as in this case where a bunch of relatively rich men from first world nations are taking once in a lifetime opportunities from relatively poor men from third world nations.
I was in the midst of writing a thorough reply to your post (I even multi quoted- you’re welcome), but I realised that we disagree on a fundamental premise - that a nation needs to aspire to be culturally homogenous in order to prosper.

I simply don’t agree.

As Tino said in the article that you posted: “I'm just as proud of both countries and both nationalities”
 

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