Bangladesh v NZ 3rd ODI, October 11, Dhaka

[JJ]

To be fair, one of two things would happen with Mark Haslam under the leadership of Sgt Shultz Vettori, chief captain, brigadeer and selector of the HMAS Pinnafore-Hopeless. They would either try to convert him into a top 6 bat while leaving the likes of Williamson out for half a series, or Vettori would get jealous of another left arm spin bowler and ensure he was constantly twelfth man.

Mark Greatbatch would be having a great time. Sacked dubiously by Warwickshire, he comes back to be paid a coach's wage to be the bloke who says 'she'll be right, by the way Dan you're hair still looks cute and your glasses make you look gangsta DJish'.

Blokes like Taylor, McCullum, Guptill, Ryder and co who are all grossly over-estimated and grossly inconsistent need the iodine and wire brush treatment from a good coach like John Wright. Then again, in New Zealand, we don't have coaches anymore - we have Vettori and someone who is a mate of his who can give him an 'atta boy' and carry the team kit bag. No doubt we'll hear from Lance Corporal Greatbatch that Bangladesh are a great side and 'we're going through a rebuilding phase and it's going to take 24 months but we believe we'll be a top 7 international side again in due course'. I'm waiting for a food poisoning headline, it's a good excuse to have up your sleeve when you bomb out overseas.

It's true... and I'd imagine Vetorri will be threatened by Williamson, because of the huge wraps on him, and his age... it's got to be a one man show these days...

It really is a shame Wright wasn't given the job, but it was very clear that Vetorri wasn't supportive of it, and he gets what he wants. The great irony is, we have a MUCH better captain and man manager (Fleming, who's doing a decent job of coaching now), who when he was looking like getting the power Vetorri has, was shafted and given Bracewell as his boss...

 

[Deleted member 10972]

Bangladesh have a very good allround team at the moment. I think they only lack a seam-bowling allrounder.

1. Tamim Iqbal - attacking opener
2. Imrul Kayes - anchor opener
3. Junaid Siddique - solid middle order bat
4. Mahmudullah - aggressive middle order bat
5. Shakib-Al-Hasan - spin-bowling allrounder
6. ???????????? - seam-bowling allrounder
7. Mushfiqur Rahim - keeper-batsman
8. Mashrafe Mortaza - line-and-length seamer
9. Rubel Hossain - express pace seamer
10. Abdur Razzak - frontline spinner
11. Syed Rasel - left-arm swing bowler

That leaves pacemen Nazmul Hossain and Shafiul Islam, spinners Naeem Islam and Suhrawadi Shuvo, middle order batsmen Jahurul Islam and Raqibul Hasan, and opening batsman Shahriar Nafees all on the fringes of the squad as depth.

Pretty good in my opinion, they seem to have moved on from Ashraful for good too. It is a shame that at the age of 26 he is already considered past his use-by date.

 

[Iafeta]

Man everyone knows Floyd... He's big here in Wellington :|

The only Floyd bigger than Reifer is Pink Floyd...

 

[KeepingTheFaith]

Right now the crap going on in NZ cricket is ordinary. I support them and want them to win, but I've got no sympathy for them losing. All you have to do is look at the teams they've played against Bangladesh to see half the problem.

Last night's team.

1. McCullum - You're not a f**king opener. 160+ games and you still average less than 30. On top of that you've given up the gloves and forced us to go with mediocre keepers so you can show off your mediocre batting.

2. Watling - Seriously talented, thrown in too early (a common theme)

3. Redmond - Average, Average, Average

4. Taylor - Was in fantastic consistent form 12-18 months ago, but has really struggled recently. Maybe the weight of carrying the whole batting line up took it's toll?

5. Williamson - Very talented, but still very young.

6. Vettori - At least he dropped himself to 6, but seriously he's not a top 6 or even top 7 batsman. Not even that great a spinner. Hasn't been in tests for a long time.

7. Elliott - The only other batsman along with Taylor who averages over 35. Is not a bowler.

8. McCullum - This is the problem with NZ cricket. He has no business being near an international side and yet because he can do a little bit of both he gets a run.

9. Mills - Generally consistent, but not destructive.

10. Tuffey - Way way past it.

11. Bennett - another youngster who appears to have been thrown in out of hope rather than the thought he might actually be ready.

Outside of that squad

Ryder - Talented, but has so many issues both off field and injury related you can't rely on him.

Guptil - Another kid who was thrown in fairly early, started off with a boom, struggled with consistency and then could find himself scrap heaped because of it once the new flavour of the month comes along (think Sinclair, Vincent, Flynn etc)

Southee - Speaking of being thrown in too young, hasn't this kid had his career butchered and mismanaged since day one?

Stewart - FFS

I hate the mentality of the team when picking guys like N McCullum, bowling guys like Elliott and Williamson, putting Vettori as high as 5 in the batting order. It pretty much says "if we can pick 10 guys who can all do a little bit of both then we've got all bases covered". What a load of crap. You pick the best 5 batsmen, the best 5 bowlers, the best wicketkeeper, and if you're lucky you get a couple of players who can do a bit of both.

NZ cricket is filled with guys who were either thrown in too young, are way over rated, or have no business being in the an international team.

The team I'd go for right now provided everyone was fully fit would be.

1. Ryder
2. Watling
3. Guptil
4. Taylor
5. Williamson
6. McCullum
7. Vettori
8. Mills
9. McKay
10 Southee
11. Bennett

12. Styris

Granted I know very little about the bowlers coming through, but I don't see a great deal of depth there.

 

[JJ]

The team I'd go for right now provided everyone was fully fit would be.

1. Ryder
2. Watling
3. Guptil
4. Taylor
5. Williamson
6. McCullum
7. Vettori
8. Mills
9. McKay
10 Southee
11. Bennett

12. Styris

Granted I know very little about the bowlers coming through, but I don't see a great deal of depth there.

Not a bad lineup - not really sure why you say Watling is seriously talented and thrown in too young... he's very average, and was thrown in before he'd actually done anything in first class cricket... the one young player that is seriously talented is Williamson... Watling is 25... no baby, averages 30 in first class cricket (mediocre) has 5 centuries in 47 matches (mediocre, Williamson has 4 in less than half that number at 45)...

If that's an ODI side, the Pig should be about the first one picked...

If McCullum doesn't open, I am not really sure who should - Watling is not going to do as well as McCullum... In Bangladesh we need >1 spinner, I agree that N McCullum's pretty ordinary, unless they go to Brucie from ND I am not sure what other spinner is less ordinary

 

[Fast Eddie]

McCullum should open. He has scored 2152 at about 34 as an opener which is probably better then what we're gonna get elsewhere. And Styris has to be in the side.

 

[JJ]

yep... best ODI sde IMO something like

McCullum
Ryder
Taylor
Styris
Williamson
Guptill
Vetorri
Mills
McKay
Southee
Extra quick/extra spinner depending on conditions

If Anderson does get some performances under his belt, could do worse than him at 7, although I doubt Captain Dan would warm to batting 8, even 7 for that matter

 

[Iafeta]

Right now the crap going on in NZ cricket is ordinary. I support them and want them to win, but I've got no sympathy for them losing. All you have to do is look at the teams they've played against Bangladesh to see half the problem.

Last night's team.

1. McCullum - You're not a f**king opener. 160+ games and you still average less than 30. On top of that you've given up the gloves and forced us to go with mediocre keepers so you can show off your mediocre batting.

2. Watling - Seriously talented, thrown in too early (a common theme)

3. Redmond - Average, Average, Average

4. Taylor - Was in fantastic consistent form 12-18 months ago, but has really struggled recently. Maybe the weight of carrying the whole batting line up took it's toll?

5. Williamson - Very talented, but still very young.

6. Vettori - At least he dropped himself to 6, but seriously he's not a top 6 or even top 7 batsman. Not even that great a spinner. Hasn't been in tests for a long time.

7. Elliott - The only other batsman along with Taylor who averages over 35. Is not a bowler.

8. McCullum - This is the problem with NZ cricket. He has no business being near an international side and yet because he can do a little bit of both he gets a run.

9. Mills - Generally consistent, but not destructive.

10. Tuffey - Way way past it.

11. Bennett - another youngster who appears to have been thrown in out of hope rather than the thought he might actually be ready.

Outside of that squad

Ryder - Talented, but has so many issues both off field and injury related you can't rely on him.

Guptil - Another kid who was thrown in fairly early, started off with a boom, struggled with consistency and then could find himself scrap heaped because of it once the new flavour of the month comes along (think Sinclair, Vincent, Flynn etc)

Southee - Speaking of being thrown in too young, hasn't this kid had his career butchered and mismanaged since day one?

Stewart - FFS

I hate the mentality of the team when picking guys like N McCullum, bowling guys like Elliott and Williamson, putting Vettori as high as 5 in the batting order. It pretty much says "if we can pick 10 guys who can all do a little bit of both then we've got all bases covered". What a load of crap. You pick the best 5 batsmen, the best 5 bowlers, the best wicketkeeper, and if you're lucky you get a couple of players who can do a bit of both.

NZ cricket is filled with guys who were either thrown in too young, are way over rated, or have no business being in the an international team.

The team I'd go for right now provided everyone was fully fit would be.

1. Ryder
2. Watling
3. Guptil
4. Taylor
5. Williamson
6. McCullum
7. Vettori
8. Mills
9. McKay
10 Southee
11. Bennett

12. Styris

Granted I know very little about the bowlers coming through, but I don't see a great deal of depth there.

The two I've highlighted are the ones of interest for me. Tim Southee. What an epic talent. Yet the guy looks to be struggling physically at times. If Southee comes through with his talent at a top 6 international nation he'd be well rounded out by now and performing. Think (bar the fixing allegations) Mohamed Amir. Southee came through as a similar talent.

I've highlighted Shanan Stewart as well. I personally don't think he's that bad a bat. I'm also in the minority that does not think Neil Broom is that bad a bat. But to make a career of coming in behind guys like Daniel Vettori and Grant Elliott is straight out wrong. Broom and Stewart are top four bats for their provincial sides and they perform very well there. At worst, they should be playing consistently in the top 6 for 15-20 games and then appraised off that. What happens currently is a guy like Broom or Stewart gets pigeon holed to play the Michael Bevan role, and a succession of outs when they're coming in at 70/5 after a couple of bowlers have got out early, or 3-4 over innings somehow give the selectors cause to believe they've truly appraised their batting skills. Blokes like Broom and Stewart are used to establishing innings, building innings, seeing innings through. That's what they're good at. That's what we lack because we ask bowlers to do that.

Personally, I don't mind a guy like Elliott in the team, and even though his score wasn't massive, he did stabilise things with Williamson for a while last night. I do have a massive problem if he bats ahead of top order bats. The way I look at it is 50 over cricket is about scoring the most runs. When you have your keeper batting in the top 6, IMO the rest of the top 6 should be just about specialist batsmen. We can get extra overs out of Williamson and Ryder if need be.

My team:

1 Jesse Ryder
2 Brendan McCullum
3 Ross Taylor
4 Kane Williamson
5 Martin Guptill
6 Shanan Stewart
7 Grant Elliott
8 Daniel Vettori
9 Kyle Mills
10 Tim Southee
11 Andy McKay

Really, positions 5/6/7, 10 and 11 you can interchange for whoever you want to suit who you rate. But it's the appropriate structure. 1 Bat, 2 Bat, 3 Bat, 4 Bat, 5 Bat, 6 Bat, 7 All-rounder, 8 Bowling all rounder, 9 Bowling all rounder, 10 Bowler, 11 Bowler. Particularly if you can get overs out of a couple of those guys in the top 6.

 

[blain]

I agree Feka. Enough pissing around with the line up, we arent far off the WC and our line up is in shambles. I'd go

Ryder
McCullum
How (good form in 20/20 and NZ A, would like Guptill there, but he cant rotate the strike good enough for 3. Watling another option)
Taylor
Williamson
Guptill (could even bring in Oram, put Rus up to 6)
Styris
Vettori
Mills
Southee/Butler/Tuffey
McKay/Bennett (pace bowler here!)

Im a bit of a How fan, has a steady head, has experience, I think he could do well as the rotater and solid player in between Ryder McCullum and Taylor. His figures in one dayers are pretty good, 35 is respectable.

Bowling wise, I have no idea who should take the last 2 spots. I hope Bennett can step it up!

 

[Chook Herron]

What's the go with Brent Arnel? He's got a decent first class average for a bowler

 

[blain]

He wouldnt really add much.. Hes just a 130km seamer who can get a bit of movement. He's a solid back up, but dont see him in the one day team until he performs in that form of the game first.

 

[JJ]

Bowlers did a reasonable job this time, and now we're 20/5... just brilliant :crazy:

 

[Iafeta]

Moles took them to a tournament final. His reward? He got sacked.

Mark Greatbatch (a coach who failed to succeed in English County Cricket) and Darth Vader Fuhrer Vettori take New Zealand on easily it's worst ever tour and I bet things will be swept under the carpet. Furher Vettori needs the sack, Greatbatch likewise.

Why do I have the feeling that in 3-4 years time there'll be a tell all book about how dopey this Furhrer structure was?

 

[African Monkey]

Anything that involves Daniel Vettori and something going wrong gets swept under the carpet. He has far too much control in the NZ setup and he's such an average player too.

 

[Iafeta]

Did Steve Rixon or John Wright apply for the role? How on earth do you select Greatbatch? All because Darth Fuhrer Vettori wants someone to give him the brown nose touch and let him run it himself? The guy is an out and out joke. I'd back Geoffrey Palmer as a leader over these blokes.

 

[African Monkey]

Yep don't know how Greatbatch got selected after f**king up Warwickshire up big time during his last stint as a coach from all reports.

 

[JJ]

I am not prone to defending Vetorri - but:
1. to call him ordinary is a bit rough. He's certainly overrated, and I am not sure why he's teflon coated and untouchable/uncriticisable over here, but he's has been a very good international cricketer by any standards
2. I find myself disagreeing with the model, but somewhat hypocritically as I would have supported it for Fleming... so, not sure if the model is the problem, or the current captain... I find it hard to fathom why they shed themselves of Fleming so quickly, and were dead set against giving him this sort of control, when they handed over to Vetorri in the blink of an eye...

But this series is a disgrace, and if NZ cricket has any credibility they should having an urgent review of performance from top to bottom... Styris is the only notable absentee, and it's Bangladesh FFS, for all the love shown to Shakib currently, they'e a pretty mediocre mob...

I'd hope the management structure, Greatbatch and Vetorri's roles (not captain as such, but certainly as coach, selector - Fuhrer as you put it) and the selectors (I guess the power balance between them and Captain Dan) should all be overhauled... this is clearly not working, so a coach who can, and selectors that select allowing the captain to just be captain would seem sensible.... I suspect Captain Dan won't allow that, and it's amazing the media have been silent...

 

[JJ]

Did Steve Rixon or John Wright apply for the role? How on earth do you select Greatbatch? All because Darth Fuhrer Vettori wants someone to give him the brown nose touch and let him run it himself? The guy is an out and out joke. I'd back Geoffrey Palmer as a leader over these blokes.

Vetorri made public comments that he didn't think Wright was right for the job... and then, funnily enough, Wright didn't get it...

 

[Fast Eddie]

Rixon, Wright and Lehman all were interested. All three would have better options. Heads have to roll.

 

[Dr Crane]

2. I find myself disagreeing with the model, but somewhat hypocritically as I would have supported it for Fleming... so, not sure if the model is the problem, or the current captain... I find it hard to fathom why they shed themselves of Fleming so quickly, and were dead set against giving him this sort of control, when they handed over to Vetorri in the blink of an eye...

i definitely agree with you on this point. the difference is, fleming repeatedly proved that he really knew how to captain and run a game, whereas vettori has just been around a while.

i haven't even been following nz cricket since this time last year, so i'm at a loss to understand how we've come to this point.