best band of all time

[Balmain_Boy]

Hevy, if best can't be defined, who are you to define technical ability?

 

[HevyDevy]

Technical ability doesn't need to be defined by me - it's out there for all to hear. It's one of the few categories that CAN be quantified. Songwriting can't be quantified so easily because taste comes into it. Not that there is, for example, one drummer with more ability than all the rest but there are certainly a group of elite drummers. Vinnie Colaiuta, Carter Beauford, Steve Gadd etc. They're all eons ahead of Ringo or Dave Grohl or any number of drummers in popular bands (just as an example).

The Beatles of course weren't about technical ability so this isn't meant as a slur on them but you could (I'm not doing it, but you could) argue that 'best' refers to the band with most technical ability. It's certainly got to have some small bearing at least.

There are a number of things I personally look for in my music - and again I'm only saying what I like, not what anyone else should or shouldn't like - but one of them is the 'wow' factor. I don't want to listen to something that my next door neighbour can play. I want to hear the very best people of their craft. And yes, songwriting and other factors are all important too, thus why I respect Meshuggah for their ability but find their music quite dull. It's similar to us watching NRL rather than heading down to the local park on Saturday to watch some C-grade team from Mt Druitt or Belrose or wherever it might be. We want to see the elite, not people doing what you or I can do.

Perhaps a thread should be started on each of the variables thrown up in regards to what 'best' means. That way we may be able to more readily group together the leading bands in each category. Most albums sold? The yes, The Beatles come in at No.1. That's the most easily definable category of all. Most influence? Well The Beatles would be in the running but there's no way you could proclaim them with any certainty whatsoever to having more influence than Zeppelin or Sabbath or others. I mean, Sabbath essentially spawned an entire genre!

Hope my dribble makes sense. You'll probbaly take offence at something I wrote somewhere but the most important thing to remember is that I really don't give a sh*t.

That is all

 

[hrundi99]

But why is one better than the other?

 

[HevyDevy]

I'll let Steve Vai (sorry, it's just coincidence that it happens to be a Vai quote) answer that. Here's a story he told about drummer Vinnie Colauita. Both used to play with Frank Zappa back in the day and Vinnie later played with Sting for seven years. One of the all time greats - and for a reason. Read this:

"I'll tell you a really great Vinnie story. He's one of the most amazing sight-readers that ever existed on the instrument. One day we were in a Frank rehearsal, this was early '80s, and Frank brought in this piece of music called "Mo 'N Herb's Vacation." Just unbelievably complex. All the drums were written out, just like "The Black Page" except even more complex. There were these runs of like 17 over 3 and every drumhead is notated differently. And there were a whole bunch of people there, I think Bozzio was there.

Vinnie had this piece of music on the stand to his right. To his left he had another music stand with a plate of sushi on it, okay? Now the tempo of the piece was very slow, like "The Black Page." And then the first riff came in, [mimics bizarre Zappa-esque drum rhythm patterns] with all these choking of cymbals, and hi-hat, ruffs, spinning of rototoms and all this crazy stuff. And I saw Vinnie reading this thing. Now, Vinnie has this habit of pushing his glasses up with the middle finger of his right hand. Well I saw him look at this one bar of music, it was the last bar of music on the page. He started to play it as he was turning the page with one hand, and then once the page was turned he continued playing the riff with his right hand, as he reached over with his left hand, grabbed a piece of sushi and put it in his mouth, continued the riff with his left hand and feet, pushed his glasses up, and then played the remaining part of the bar.

It was the sickest thing I have ever seen. Frank threw his music up in the air. Bozzio turned around and walked away. I just started laughing."

I suggest you all listen to Sting's Seven Days off Ten Summoner's Tales. I'm sure at least some of you have the album or the song somewhere. The drumming is freakish.

 

[Balmain_Boy]

Technical ability doesn't need to be defined by me - it's out there for all to hear. It's one of the few categories that CAN be quantified. Songwriting can't be quantified so easily because taste comes into it. Not that there is, for example, one drummer with more ability than all the rest but there are certainly a group of elite drummers. Vinnie Colaiuta, Carter Beauford, Steve Gadd etc. They're all eons ahead of Ringo or Dave Grohl or any number of drummers in popular bands (just as an example).

The Beatles of course weren't about technical ability so this isn't meant as a slur on them but you could (I'm not doing it, but you could) argue that 'best' refers to the band with most technical ability. It's certainly got to have some small bearing at least.

There are a number of things I personally look for in my music - and again I'm only saying what I like, not what anyone else should or shouldn't like - but one of them is the 'wow' factor. I don't want to listen to something that my next door neighbour can play. I want to hear the very best people of their craft. And yes, songwriting and other factors are all important too, thus why I respect Meshuggah for their ability but find their music quite dull. It's similar to us watching NRL rather than heading down to the local park on Saturday to watch some C-grade team from Mt Druitt or Belrose or wherever it might be. We want to see the elite, not people doing what you or I can do.

Perhaps a thread should be started on each of the variables thrown up in regards to what 'best' means. That way we may be able to more readily group together the leading bands in each category. Most albums sold? The yes, The Beatles come in at No.1. That's the most easily definable category of all. Most influence? Well The Beatles would be in the running but there's no way you could proclaim them with any certainty whatsoever to having more influence than Zeppelin or Sabbath or others. I mean, Sabbath essentially spawned an entire genre!

Hope my dribble makes sense. You'll probbaly take offence at something I wrote somewhere but the most important thing to remember is that I really don't give a sh*t.

That is all

But you are calling a band's technical ability good because you or the majority think it's good. It's no different to the other categories. Whilst I agree the Beatles didn't have supreme technical ability, I think proclaiming that is inconsistent with the rest of your argument.

 

[hrundi99]

I don't tend to rely on the likes of Steve Vai for intellectual thought on the quality of music.

 

[HevyDevy]

Then you're immediately ruled out of any logical discussions - you don't have to like Vai but to say what you just said is ridiculous.

 

[hrundi99]

Once again, that's a matter of opinion.

 

[Balmain_Boy]

Exactly. You are inconsistent.

One minute we're not respecting your opinion, then you say something like that to Hrundi.

 

[HevyDevy]

Okay, then let me ask you why you would rule out Steve Vai, of all people, when it comes to intellectual thought on music.

We're talking about a guy who attended two Zappa shows, somehow transcribed the music note for note (don't ask me how anyone does that with Zappa) and was later recruited to play with him after Zappa saw the tablature and sh*t himself. He is perhaps better credentialed than anyone. He is well known to be among the most knowledgable of all guitarists when it comes to music theory.

So, to summarise, why would you discount the opinion of Vai? If you think his music is sh*t, that's fair enough but this I struggle to comprehend.

 

[hrundi99]

Virtuosity means virtually nothing to me unless it's in the service of great material.

That's why.

 

[Balmain_Boy]

I don't tend to rely on the likes of Steve Vai for intellectual thought on the quality of music.

You YOURSELF said that quality was based on opinion. I'm guessing hrundi reckons Vai's music is sh*t and hence doesn't give a sh*t what VAI thinks of the quality of music.

 

[hrundi99]

It's kind of like some young piano virtuoso being able to play hardcore Rachmaninov (?), but not having heard Ray Charles' "What'd I Say?" and not being able to play it as a result.

 

[carcharias]

Steve Vai???

So what , he's a fuggen great guitar player...so is Joe satriani.

I reckon both of their music is mind numbing vomit.

Guitar solo after fugging guitar solo ad nauseum.

Its technically impressive yes , but it doesn't make me walk around singing it .
It is just so sterile ....where's the meat and potatoe , skin and bones rock n roll?

Where's keith and his ciggie ?

where's Peter Garret sweating his arse off singing out of key and dancing like a mad man?

Where are the crowds that are so loud the band can't be heard?

Girls crying/fainting?

Mate I saw Nirvana play at the Hordern Pavillion @ the first big day out.

Those four chords at the start of teen spirit nearly melted the walls down.

and that is what makes a band great..not the amount of fuggen time signatures they know ..
but the energy and the passion they put out.

The Beatles sent kids nuts....then they went on and changed music all together.

They are the band all other bands are compared to .

 

[HevyDevy]

Ahhh, but Vai wasn't commenting on the quality of music, merely the quality of musician.

And that's my point - music comes down to taste, musicianship doesn't.

Hrundi, your point is valid. It's no good being freakishly talented if you're playing sh*t music. A lot of Vai's stuff I find quite dull. Some of it blows me away.

Do you like Dream Theater? They're another band that divides opinion in a similar vein but there's no disputing their talent.

 

[HevyDevy]

Steve Vai???

So what , he's a fuggen great guitar player...so is Joe satriani.

I reckon both of their music is mind numbing vomit.

Guitar solo after fugging guitar solo ad nauseum.

Its technically impressive yes , but it doesn't make me walk around singing it .
It is just so sterile ....where's the meat and potatoe , skin and bones rock n roll?

Where's keith and his ciggie ?

where's Peter Garret sweating his arse off singing out of key and dancing like a mad man?

Where are the crowds that are so loud the band can't be heard?

Girls crying/fainting?

Mate I saw Nirvana play at the Hordern Pavillion @ the first big day out.

Those four chords at the start of teen spirit nearly melted the walls down.

and that is what makes a band great..not the amount of fuggen time signatures they know ..
but the energy and the passion they put out.

The Beatles sent kids nuts....then they went on and changed music all together.

They are the band all other bands are compared to .

Carcharias, my old sparring partner.

You had me at hello then lost me at Nirvana.

Anyway, I assume you're stating here that Vai has never been able to induce such a reaction. hehe, funny stuff

 

[Balmain_Boy]

This is a fairly futile discussion. It's going nowhere so i'll bow out.

As I bow out, one more time, the Beatles are the undisputed best band of all time.

 

[hrundi99]

This is a fairly futile discussion. It's going nowhere so i'll bow out.

As I bow out, one more time, the Beatles are the undisputed best band of all time.

Word, la.

 

[Everlovin' Antichrist]

Album/Singles sales mean jacksh*t... because if that was the case, Ashlee Simpson/Aaron Carter etc. would be actually considered talented musicians.

However i agree with everything else you have said in this thread

I never said that Album/Singles sales are a barometer for who are the most talented musicians, but they are a barometer for the best band ever.

If 40 million people buy a Pop band's album and 400,000 buy another more artistic band's album, who are we to argue that the Pop band isn't better when there's 40 million people who disagree with us? They're not necessarily wrong, they're just wrong in our opinion.

That's all it comes down to, opinion.

 

[carcharias]

You had me at hello then lost me at Nirvana

that is the sound of a man who never saw Nirvana.