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BK - The best lock of all time?

Stagger eel

Moderator
Staff member
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65,783
JJ said:
IMO Bob Lindner and Ellery Hanley should probably be on that list somewhere.

I think Reilly might be a bit low, and there must be other Poms.

8-10 are pretty debatable inclusions

I would probably only consider Lindner's spot in my top ten ahead of Brad Mackay..but just thought Mackay was better defensively...never really rated Ellery as a backrower a far more superior at five-eight or the three quaters imo.
 
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42,652
I'd have Price, Raper, McCarthy and Clyde ahead of him at Lock, off the top of my head.

And he wouldn't go near best backrower of all-time. He's not even the best backrower in the game now...
 

Prodigiousman

Juniors
Messages
933
It was mentioned earlier in the thread but the whole 'Clyde injured, no club games etc' argument is moot when you consider at the end of 2004 everyone pretty much said Manly were wasting their money on Kennedy because he's never fit.

You can't have it both ways.

There is no doubt Kennedy has been a force this and last year but for mine he's always been a potentially great player who for the most part was very good.

you also have to realise that any comparisons made today weigh heavily in favour of the current player esp in this day and age of access to footage etc. The youngsters (and I'm not exactly old myself) will wrap a player as the best ever with one season, in the olden days you needed to string a few years together of top quality to get a mention as a best ever in a paper or a pub/at the game (the old pre-net place for talking league).

I was fortunate enough to grow up watching Clyde play in the great Canberra team and even though I don't regard him as the best player I've ever seen (although he is mighty close) he was the so far and away the best backrower I've seen play the game. Statistics these days aren't an exact science so don't lend yourself into thinking they define how good a player is - a work rate is vital to any backrower but so is the timing of that work - stats don't tell you that part of the story. A hitup on the 2nd tackle 1m out from your line that gets your team to the 10m line is far more valuable to a side than a 15-20m run from halfway into the opposition half on the back of a couple of good rucks.

Clyde was simply an athlete and don't forget he did his knee twice in 1990 and came back and was a monster in 1991. He was hurt again in 1996 seriously but his three outstanding seasons were 1989, 1990 and 1991 and he was just awesome almost every other year bar 1997 when he seemed a bit overweight and struggling for his role in Mal Meninga's team - was a he a prop was he a lock etc.

The game missed out on his final years because he went to England for 2001 and really he would've been awesome again with the way the game was played from 2001-2003. When rumours surfaced that he might play a club game for Canterbury in early 2005 I almost bought a dogs season ticket - he was that kind of player.

But for the stat junkies here's some food for thought with Bradley Clyde in the three Canberra Grand Finals he played in - the first 2 under the 5m rule.

1989 v Balmain
100mins, 34 of 37 tackles completed, 32 runs for 239 metres gained and 3 offloads.

1991 v Penrith
74mins, 23 of 26 tackles completed, 1 Primary Assist, 1 Line Break, 20 runs (incl 4 dummy half runs) for 158 metres gained, 1 error, 2 offloads.

1994 v Canterbury
80mins, 20 of 20 tackles completed, 18 runs for 145 metres gained and 1 offload.

And if you want consistency this was his tackle/runs/metres count for the entire 1989 Finals Series.
Minor Prelim Semi v Cronulla
27 tackles, 19 runs for 154 metres gained
Minor Semi v Penrith
27 tackles, 19 runs for 162 metres gained
Preliminary Final v Souths
21 tackles, 22 runs and 176 metres gained
Grand Final v Balmain
34 tackles, 32 runs and 239 metres gained...

do the math that is 27 tackles, 23 runs and 183 metres gained per game in the games that truly matter.

But they are stats... so.
 

Iafeta

Referee
Messages
24,357
The roles have changed so much that it's hard to compare versus era in this particular position. For instance, a lock used to sit a little behind the defensive line and make cover defending tackles. That was his job primarily.

Nowadays, its a little different.

I haven't seen too many of the aforementioned, did see enough of Bradley Clyde to suggest that anyone who beats that bloke has got something stronger than blood running through their veins. He was, like most of his Canberra counterparts at that time, without peer. Kennedy's a good player, infact, a great player, but from what I saw Clyde donkey slaps him.
 

Bazal

Post Whore
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102,727
Harold Bishop said:
Care to elaborate? BK is better then Hindmarsh and you know it..

Is he? Why? I would much rather have Hindmarsh playing for me in a game for my life, put it that way. Hindy never ever gives less than 150%, he has near the best workrate going around. For a few years he was Parramatta. The amount of times he has saved our arse with cover defence, a big hit, a much needed hit up cannot be ignored, and contrary to the belief of many people he has the attacking game as well. BK is a very good attacker, but workrate wise he is not up to Hindmarsh's standards, fitness wise he is not up to Hindmarsh's standards, discipline wise he is not up to Hindmarsh's standards. He is a very good player, yes, but I would rate him third in the comp, behind Hindmarsh and your own Beaver Menzies.
 

Iafeta

Referee
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24,357
I'd take Kennedy ahead of Hindmarsh.

But I regard Hindmarsh as a second rower, not a lock.
 

lockyno1

Post Whore
Messages
53,345
Bazal said:
Is he? Why? I would much rather have Hindmarsh playing for me in a game for my life, put it that way. Hindy never ever gives less than 150%, he has near the best workrate going around. For a few years he was Parramatta. The amount of times he has saved our arse with cover defence, a big hit, a much needed hit up cannot be ignored, and contrary to the belief of many people he has the attacking game as well. BK is a very good attacker, but workrate wise he is not up to Hindmarsh's standards, fitness wise he is not up to Hindmarsh's standards, discipline wise he is not up to Hindmarsh's standards. He is a very good player, yes, but I would rate him third in the comp, behind Hindmarsh and your own Beaver Menzies.

For starters one is a lock, one is a 2nd rower! Why on eart are we debating who is better. It is safe to say kennedy is the best LOCK in the game. Hindmarsh or Mason would be the best 2nd rower in the game. I'd lean towards Mason just.
 

Bazal

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102,727
Iafeta said:
I'd take Kennedy ahead of Hindmarsh.

But I regard Hindmarsh as a second rower, not a lock.

Oh so do I, was just replying to a queston on my comment that I don't rate BK as the best backrower in the comp, after some Manly fool rated him "one of the best backrowers of all time" or some such...
 

Bazal

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102,727
lockyno1 said:
For starters one is a lock, one is a 2nd rower! Why on eart are we debating who is better. It is safe to say kennedy is the best LOCK in the game. Hindmarsh or Mason would be the best 2nd rower in the game. I'd lean towards Mason just.

Urk, forgot Mason! BK is 4th then! As for the rest, read my above post;-)
 

Manu Vatuvei

Coach
Messages
17,217
Regardless of the number on his back, is Kennedy really a traditional lock?

He pretty much plays as a second-rower whereas traditionally isn't lock a somewhat different position?
 

JJ

Immortal
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32,407
Thierry Henry said:
Regardless of the number on his back, is Kennedy really a traditional lock?

He pretty much plays as a second-rower whereas traditionally isn't lock a somewhat different position?

it was, but hasn't really been for some time now...
 

Mr Saab

Referee
Messages
27,762
Clyde has it over BK and they pretty much played in the same modern era so you can compare.
Some of the simple things that many people miss he did well. Like for example being the 1st person back to take a hitup after a kick down the field for the opposition.
 

Bazal

Post Whore
Messages
102,727
lockyno1 said:
Menzies, oh come on! Menzies is good but kennedy is better than him!

Last I checked Kennedy wasn't the highest try scoring forward in history...in fact he wasn't even close.
 
D

Deleted member 10972

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Bradley Clyde
Ron Coote
Johnny Raper
Mal Reilly
Brad Mackay
Ray Price
Hugh McGahan
Ron Reddy
Mark Graham
Paul Langmack
Wayne Pearce
Frank Burge
Bob Lindner
Andy Norval
Ellery Hanley
Steve Menzies
Ben Kennedy


As for Andy Norval, he must have been good if he could push Ron Coote from lock to backrow in the Roosters best-ever team named.
 

simon says

First Grade
Messages
5,124
Im surpised Junior rarely gets mentioned in the best lock category......he was an inspiration.

BTW.....I think BK is onr of the best locks I have seen,he is definitely in the Price/Junior/Clyde class IMO.
 

sydraider

First Grade
Messages
5,704
In my lifetime of watching the game I would have to go with
Clyde
Price
Kennedy
Langmack

I unfortunately wasnt around to witness Rapers career.
 

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