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Bmac's Retirement: Replacement Captain and Players

ANTiLAG

First Grade
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8,014
Okay - so in February BMac retires from all international cricket.

Kane is the favourite to be the test captain. Basically if he wants the job, its his according to Bryan Waddle. He will be the T20 WC captain. Only other test captain contenders are BJ (test only and keeper), Tim Southee and Tom Latham.

If Kane wants to focus on his batting solely and not captian in tests but only limited overs, safe to say that Tom Latham will one day captain NZ, what the context is, that is unknown, but at 23, he is the current short leg. Just a tad too young to step up right now. Tim Southee is not in my opinion a realistic captaincy option at the moment. He is rather carefee. BJ is a realistic test captain option, but often wicket keepers do not like the extra workload of captaincy on top of their responsibilities with the bat and the gloves in the field.

Assuming that the above is dead issue and that KW takes the captaincy and maintains his batting form, who bats 5?

There are calls for Jesse Ryder being given a go at 5 in test and to open in ODI. This has the bonus that Santner, Anderson and Neesham can be discarded in test and replaced with a proper batsman should the selectors so wish. Ryder is a genuine 5th bowling option, as well as genuinely in the 6 best batsmen in the county.

But Jesse remains on the outer with NZC for now.

The favourites for the test team middle order in the NZC rumour mill are;

Henry Niccolls (who will play ODI's this summer); and

Will Young from CD.

I question this. Why are we still treating opening batsmen at domestic as unable to bat in the middle order of a test team. I am fairly sure Australia and other nations have brought in domestic top order batsmen to start in the middle order (5 and 6) in the international teams.

If Ben Smith and Jeet Raval are better run scorers than Young and Niccols with the red ball, why not bat them lower to begin with? Its possibly only a matter of time before Guptill has his head on the chopping block again and they can be pushed up the order.

Dean Brownlie is different, because like Alec Stewart, his problems with spin make it a better option for him to open.

Another option being discussed. Luke Ronchi playing in the test team and BJ taking the glvoes off and batting 5. I think this idea is stupid. Ronchi, a fan favourite for his ODI exploits has barely got a run since his 170 against SL in ODI cricket in the year since. His test debut was impressive with 88, and BJ got a ton, but Ronchi will be 35 by the time he comes into the team and his hand eye reliant batting style is possibly starting to wane. I hope its not. And he has domestic FC run this year, but its one thing to hit domestic cricketers on Eden Park #2 and McLean Park out of the ground than it is to face Steyn, Morkel, Ashwin and Jadeja in their own test backyard.

BJ has demonstrated that he can be a world class keeper bat. I would look for a better batsmen than Ronchi.

ODI Openers:

Nicchols is being spoken about as an ODI opener. George Worker has been blooded a little. Latham went to Africa and opened in the ODIs this year (still batted too slowly for my liking despite getting runs).

I am a Jesse fan. So I am a dreamer. But he can score swiftly in ODI opening and is a classy test batsmen in the middle order. Who do you want to see given a go in the ODI opener and test #5? I question Latham's suitability to opening in ODI cricket right now. Powerplay overs need to be maximised by batsmen in my view. Gayle, Warner, De Kock, Finch, Hales, McCullum and Dilshan are the norm - not the exception.
 
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JJ

Immortal
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Don't think the captaincy will affect Williamson, so it's his I think. Hesson is a smart operator, so he'll have the support he needs.

Much as I like Ryder's talent, I don't want him anywhere near the NZ team any more, and I'd be surprised if anyone in the setup did too.

For the 5 position, I like both Smith and Young - haven't seen much of Nicholls yet, and the other two have done more anyway. I suspect at the moment the Anderson, Neesham, Santner trio has the inside running, Neesham probably the best bat of that lot, but all are better at 6-7

Would also prefer Brownlie to Guptill, but that doesn't seem to be likely... Raval's a good option too, but think he's further down the pecking order - not sure he'd go well at the highest level tbh
 

ANTiLAG

First Grade
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8,014
Don't think the captaincy will affect Williamson, so it's his I think. Hesson is a smart operator, so he'll have the support he needs.

Much as I like Ryder's talent, I don't want him anywhere near the NZ team any more, and I'd be surprised if anyone in the setup did too.

For the 5 position, I like both Smith and Young - haven't seen much of Nicholls yet, and the other two have done more anyway. I suspect at the moment the Anderson, Neesham, Santner trio has the inside running, Neesham probably the best bat of that lot, but all are better at 6-7

Would also prefer Brownlie to Guptill, but that doesn't seem to be likely... Raval's a good option too, but think he's further down the pecking order - not sure he'd go well at the highest level tbh

Niccolls and Young have the inside running to bat 5. Niccolls has the best opportunity because he play in ODIs this summer. If he does well, he will have inside running to the test team. I question that against Raval and Smith not being a shot to bat in the test team because they are openers.

I doubt that 2 of Neesham, Anderson and Santner play in a test team together. Anderson cannot bat well enough with the red ball to bat 5 and cannot bowl without getting injured. His wickets are scarce, but his overs are economical. He just cannot bowl many as a big fulla I suspect as his body breaks. At some point in desperation they may try playing 2 of them, but they're really not good enough to bat 5. Anderson is an onside puller and sweeper and Neesham cannot play quality spin well (Santner may develop as a batsman). Neesham has good pace with the ball, but his wickets are expensive with bowling average of 40. Anderson cannot bowl big overs without his big body getting injured, and his batting average of 31 is inflated by the Bangladesh and steadily dropping. They have a hard time getting past Santner in the test team now, let alone batting 5.

Now in the ODI team however, Anderson, Santner and Neesham could definitely play together with Boult, Milne, and Southee as the "A" team. I suspect that a real opener plays and Santner preferred to Neesham with Corey to bowl 10 and Williamson as the 6th bowler, but its very possible.

1 Guptill
2 Latham/Niccolls/Neesham/Santner/Worker/Devicich
3 Williamson
4 Taylor
5 Elliot
(Niccolls and perhaps Munro to be given chances where Williamson, Taylor or Elliot rested - though Munro may be more in an Anderson role)
6 Anderson
7 Santner/Neesham
8 Ronchi
9 Milne
10 Boult
11 Southee

Its NMac's final year and hes on the record as being a T20 only candidate this year.

I am a massive fan of Australia's ODI line up of 4 batsmen, 3 high batting strike rate allrounders, Watson 40 at SR 90, Maxwell 35 @ 126, Faulkner 43 @ 113 (with Marsh 33 @ 84 and Agar waiting in the wings), wicket keeper bat and 3 genuine seamers. NZ have the same thing with Milne, Southee and Boult. NZ, SA and Australia have lead the world with a high SR middle order and the WC 2015 demonstrates that it works. England has now copied it.

Santner strikes at 130. Anderson at 124. Ronchi at 120. Neesham at 95. Munro at 94 but 145 in T20. He's an animal. 48 FC average at a SR of 93. Eden Park #2 is too small for visiting teams.
 
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some11

Referee
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23,662
If this doubles as a 'what will you remember him for' thread..

[youtube]FoZARwTRZ1o[/youtube]
 

ANTiLAG

First Grade
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8,014
If this doubles as a 'what will you remember him for' thread..

[youtube]FoZARwTRZ1o[/youtube]

Ha. A sore point with many band wagon NZ world cup fans who criticise him for that innings.

Personally, its was his role to play at the World Cup. Worked well in the semi final against South Africa (59 off 26). Worked well against Australia in the pool match that NZ won (50 off 24). Worked well against England (77 off 25) and Sri Lanka (65 off 49) in the pool games too that NZ won. He would have been a moron in my view not to have tried it in the final. Personally, I think the hindsight critics of him doing it in the final are possibly mentally geniused. He went with a formula to give the team the best chance to win. That strategy was paying dividends on form. If it aint broke, don't fix it. Had he not gone for the boundaries, and NZ post a 250 or 270 score that Australia chase down, he would have been criticsed for not gunning it at the top of the order. Going into that final, any and all opposition would have been scared of him getting a 50 ball or better century given the way he was playing.

He had a SR of 188 at the World Cup averaging 36.6 including that duck, and averaging 41 before the final innings. Any team in the world would take that any day opening.

He had a plan to win the World Cup final. Not just to scratch around and not make a fool of himself. Good on him. He risked personal ridicule for a victory.

If New Zealand had won that world cup, cricket would have taken off in NZ. Would have been huge. But alas, its just a more popular hobby now.
 
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hineyrulz

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151,732
Bangladesh,Zimbabwe, the Windies and the Indians can all breathe a sigh of relief, the test sides with decent Pace attacks will be upset the overrated slogger is retiring......
 

JJ

Immortal
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Bangladesh,Zimbabwe, the Windies and the Indians can all breathe a sigh of relief, the test sides with decent Pace attacks will be upset the overrated slogger is retiring......

Fine captain, fine keeper batsman, decent test batsman...

Averaged the same against the Windies as Australia and RSA, so not quite that simple - averaged 65 against India, 49 against Pakistan, and 35 against England and Sri Lanka. Averaged 48 at home, which given much of his career was as a keeper, and our conditions aren't conducive to high averages is pretty good. In ODIs he was pretty consistent across the board, and on any given day could tear any attack apart - the century he got against Australia in the 20:20 was astionishing

He'd probably be my keeper in my all-time NZ side, and perhaps captain too - many of our best captains - Howarth, Coney, Fleming, wouldn't make the side - so it would come down to Baz or J R Reid
 

ANTiLAG

First Grade
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8,014
Bangladesh,Zimbabwe, the Windies and the Indians can all breathe a sigh of relief, the test sides with decent Pace attacks will be upset the overrated slogger is retiring......

Fair criticism, but he would have also improved the Australian team in the UAE last year against Shah and Zulfiqar.
 
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Pete Cash

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Averages under 30 in australia, england and the rsa. Says it all really. Couldnt play fast bowling.
 

ANTiLAG

First Grade
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Averages under 30 in australia, england and the rsa. Says it all really. Couldnt play fast bowling.

Fair call. But good for a keeper. I imagine Bmac has similar run scoring to Gilly post 04/05 when Flintoff revealed his inability with the bat in 05 ashes.

What is Dhoni doing in those 3 countries?

Leaves Prior looking underrated.
 
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hineyrulz

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151,732
Fair call. But good for a keeper. I imagine Bmac has similar run scoring to Gilly post 04/05 when Flintoff revealed his inability with the bat in 05 ashes.

What is Dhoni doing in those 3 countries?
Dhoni was overrated as well so don't see you point. Excellent one day player but just an average test bat. By the 2005 Ashes series Gilly was 35 i seriously doubt anyone gets much better after that age. Gilly's best year's were spent waiting behind a past it Healy.
 

Pete Cash

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He won you an odi game against australia once.

Gilchrist averaged 45 in australia, 40 in england and 65 in the rsa and scored a century against every test nation
 

chigurh

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Gilly averaged 39.66 between during 06 to 08.

Still (marginally) better than Mccullums overall average, and he didn't give up the gloves.
 

ANTiLAG

First Grade
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8,014
Dhoni was overrated as well so don't see you point. Excellent one day player but just an average test bat. By the 2005 Ashes series Gilly was 35 i seriously doubt anyone gets much better after that age. Gilly's best year's were spent waiting behind a past it Healy.

He was 33. Had he played earlier he would have been found out earlier.
 

ANTiLAG

First Grade
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8,014
Gilly averaged 39.66 between during 06 to 08.

Still (marginally) better than Mccullums overall average, and he didn't give up the gloves.

You cheat.

I said
I imagine Bmac has similar run scoring to Gilly post 04/05 when Flintoff revealed his inability with the bat in 05 ashes.

Gilchrist averaged 30.21 for this period with a top score of 144 ton against Bangladesh getting the average above 30.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/5390.html?class=1;spanmax1=31+Dec+2008;spanmin1=01+Apr+2005;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting

18 against South Africa
17 against West Indies
21 against India

Impressive stuff.
 
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ANTiLAG

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8,014
Ok bat. Overrated captain. He's changed cricket forever though according to Ian Smith.

Ha. Ian Smith did not realise till this year that Kane Williamson was a better batsman than BMac. Still thinks Crowe is a tier above Williamson based on aesthetics - in my view this is essentially holding the pose on shots after hitting the ball. Take anything Ian Smith says with a grain of salt. He was going on ad nauseam last year about McCullum without noticing the phenomenal talent of Williamson coming to the fore and just caressing bowler's deliveries to where he wanted the ball to go.

Best quote: "Brendon McCullum's earned the right to retire".

BMac has been a great ODI captain. Lords tarnishes his good test captaincy record.
 
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chigurh

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