Bret Hart pins blame for CM Punk’s departure from WWE on Triple H

[Iafeta]

I hero worship both Hart and Flair. Both have more screws loose than a screw tray at Bunnings. I think that's life in the bubble lifestyle, normality disappears because you're on the road 300 days a year being bashed up. Plus, the deaths these blokes are surrounded by must mess with them.

I would say Flair was transformational as was Hart, as in, respective to the eras they got in, they brought more speed and agility to a show that if you look back at old show footage could be slow as hell. I'd say the same with Eddie. When you watch him, Jericho, Rey, Benoit in WCW, and then a Flair, Hart or Sting match comes on, the latter matches appear formulaic, you can pick what's going to happen. I just think all sports go through transformations, and I think it's easier to compare era specific rather than cross era. For mine, I am a huge fan of Bret Hart, but someone who has grossly ignored but never by promoters is Randy Savage. Entertaining, hot as hell,wife bless their souls, exciting in the ring, able to change his matches up or down to suit, can play heel or face, ooooh yeah. To me, he was miles ahead of his time.

 

[Big Pete]

My counter argument is every bloody match by Eddie and Hart lol.

So let's get this straight then...

You think

Bret Hart vs Vince McMahon Wrestlemania 28
Bret Hart vs The Miz Raw 2010
Bret Hart vs Yokozuna Wrestlemania 9
Bret Hart vs Bob Backlund Wrestlemania 11

Eddie Guerrero vs Perry Saturn Halloween Havoc 99
Eddie Guerrero vs Rikishi Unforgiven 2000
Eddie Guerrero vs Luther Reigns No Mercy 2004

and all the throw away television matches...

Are better than every single Ric Flair match ever? Really? Well, I guess that's your opinion, but it means about as much as being a Great Kahli fan.

I didn't begin watching wrestling in 99. How could you come up with such a random date?

Because that's the only period where he really went through the motions like you're describing. Regardless, you never saw him work in his prime, and you're going to judge him when he was treated as a living legend. That would be like judging Bret Hart on his 2010 work.

 

[Gina Minehart]

I've seen flair matches back to 79

Sure he was a class above most of the other guys at the time, but it's all relative. Hart shat on Flair in terms of selling, depth in Arsenal of moves and in ring story telling

 

[Big Pete]

Hart shat on Flair in terms of selling

Nope, Hart could be awful in this aspect (Wrestlemania 12 comes straight to mind).

depth in Arsenal of moves

Being able to hit a bunch of moves doesn't make you the best wrestler of all-time. Otherwise Teddy Hart is better than Bret, which is like preferring Bret Hart vs Vince McMahon 2010 over every single Ric Flair match. Regardless, both had as many moves as the other. Bret kept it fairly simple, usually giving his opponents more of the spotlight before going into his routine.

in ring story telling

Both were amazing in this regard, I'd consider them equal.

Where Flair has Bret beat is versatility and charisma. Flair was better at keeping fans engaged, where as fans would tune out of portions of Hart's matches. Which is why he was never that big of a draw.

On the mic, it's no contest either.

 

[nöyd]

Eddie was such a talent too bad he was held down for years. The bloke had to get on the juice to be recognised.

balls

if he was as talented as you say then there'd be no reason to roid up.

 

[canberra_raiders2k2]

Eddie didn't do anything differently. Watch him in his wcw days. LWO and random luchador matches. It's the same as it was just before he died.

In recent years the wwe has mostly been about size not ability. Just grab a body builder and turn him into a wrestler.

 

[Gina Minehart]

Eddie didn't do anything differently. Watch him in his wcw days. LWO and random luchador matches. It's the same as it was just before he died.

In recent years the wwe has mostly been about size not ability. Just grab a body builder and turn him into a wrestler.

Bollox

Bryan, Punk, Kevin Owens, Del Rio, Ambrose, Bray Wyatt and many others say hi

 

[Big Pete]

I sort of see what raider2k2 is getting at with that line, although 'in recent years' got a chuckle out of me. The WWWF has been body conscious since Bruno hit it big, so 1963.

However, if you look at the guys they've been trying to push as stars it's guys like Sheamus, Ryback, Roman Reigns, Rusev, Brock and Batista. Even bigger guys like Ezekial Jackson and Brodus Clay were given big pushes that they didn't really deserve.

Still, it's hardly different from Eddie's era. During his time you had HHH, Brock, Batista, Goldberg, JBL, Undertaker, Nash, Steiner etc all on top. Even when Eddie and Benoit won, ultimately they were just transitional champions with Eddie dropping the belt to JBL on his third PPV defence.

 

[Tommy Smith]

Bret Hart was a huge draw in his prime. He was enormously popular all over the world. Case in point his Summer Slam match vs the Bulldog in England.

I really can't understand how you could say he wasn't a huge draw.

 

[Valheru]

Bret Hart was a huge draw in his prime. He was enormously popular all over the world. Case in point his Summer Slam match vs the Bulldog in England.

I really can't understand how you could say he wasn't a huge draw.

I?ve made it pretty clear I am not a Bret Hart fan but I don?t know if you can say he wasn?t a big draw. He probably did suffer from the fact he was at his prime at a time when wrestling was in a decline.

I think what Pete is getting at though, is that he certainly wasn?t a draw like Flair/Hogan in the 80?s or Austin/Rock in the attitude era. I think a key point is that Bret was still around when the boom kicked in and the business just left him behind..

 

[Big Pete]

Bret Hart was a huge draw in his prime. He was enormously popular all over the world. Case in point his Summer Slam match vs the Bulldog in England.

I really can't understand how you could say he wasn't a huge draw.

The exception that doesn't prove the rule. SummerSlam '92, the first and only PPV in the UK and TV was built around Savage v Warrior for the WWF Championship with the angle being about who Perfect would side with.

The show drew one of the biggest gates in WWF history but it came at a huge price. Taxes and travelling expenses were huge when compared to hosting the show in New York and they were down a third of the previous buy-rate, which cost them millions in the PPV business.

Meanwhile, when Bret was on top from 92-97, WWF was doing record low business. There were a number of factors that played into it, but Bret simply never drew the crowds or ratings guys like Hogan, Sammartino, Flair etc. had prior.

The only silver lining for Bret was his 95-96 run which was a good period for the WWF in-between two bad periods with Diesel and HBK.

Bret going to WCW should have been his moment of glory but it never transpired.

So to say Bret was a huge draw when business was down and never picked back up with him on top is asinine. As great as angles like Owen-Bret were, they were flops commercially and fans weren't interested in voting with their wallets.

When it comes to Bret, it's better to talk about his in-ring work. Not everybody can perform well at the box office, it doesn't mean they're bad actors though.

 

[Tommy Smith]

We'll have to agree to disagree because, having grown up in Great Britain, I know that Bret was a huge superstar in Europe. He was also huge in Asia.

The WWF might have been in a down period in the mid 90s but he carried the brand for a few years. Very few wrestlers have been as revered and loved in so many parts of the world as Bret.

 

[Big Pete]

He may have been big in England (bigger than other American wrestlers? not sure) but in terms of the wrestling market, they were one of the small fries. Wrestling hasn't been big in England (or in Europe for that matter) since the days of All Star Wrestling. Once they lost television (much like WCW in Australia in the 70s) the market collapsed, leaving little there beyond annual tours from the WWF to draw decent houses.

As an aside, England is actually going through something of a renaissance right now. Promotions like Revolution Pro, Progressive, ICW are setting record business so it's going to be interesting to see what sort of impact that has on future business. Right now, we're starting to see more and more British wrestlers appear on the scene.

In Asia, specifically Japan, Bret doesn't even begin to compare to the likes of Rikidozan, Inoki, Hansen, Vader, Hogan, Misawa, Baba, Kobashi as a box office draw.

If Bret was such a huge draw, McMahon wouldn't have been so quick to get the belt off of him and build up guys like Lex Luger, Diesel and HBK to take his spot. As a draw, Bret was nothing more than a stop-gap.

As a performer, he's one of the best of all-time. Trying to paint him as something that he wasn't is just a disservice to him.

 

[abpanther]

I thought Bret was a massive draw and the face of the WWF for many years, every WWF magazine and promotion was littered with pink!

 

[Big Pete]

Lex had his own freakin bus, how did that go?

Jeff Jarrett broke a million guitars and never drew a dime.

etc.

 

[Tommy Smith]

As a draw, Bret was nothing more than a stop-gap.

A 5-year stop gap.

Bret was always greeted like a rockstar in places like the UK, Germany and Japan. Now granted he wasn't Hogan or the Rock, but in terms of global fame in his prime I believe he sits in the next tier below the likes of those two and SCSA.

Not that we should be judging wrestlers on their fame anyway. CM Punk leaves Cena for dead in every way and yet he was nowhere near as big a global star.

 

[Big Pete]

A 5-year stop gap.

Nope, the longest he was portrayed as THE guy was from March of 94 through to November of 94 which happened to be one of the worst years the WWF had commercially.

Now granted he wasn't Hogan or the Rock, but in terms of global fame in his prime I believe he sits only a rung below the likes of those two and SCSA.

I agree that he's two rungs behind those guys, but the list is longer than just three guys.

Not that we should be judging wrestlers on their fame anyway.

Which is why I pointed out Flair's promos, charisma, versatility etc.

Being a box office draw was just another facet in Flair's favour.

CM Punk leaves Cena for dead in every way and yet he was nowhere near as big a global star.

I take your point, but disagree with the comparison. As easy as it is to hate on Cena, the guy has put together a nice career for himself that rivals if not tops Punks.

But there's examples like that, sure.

 

[Iafeta]

Thats a bit harsh. WWF was going to struggle irrespective of who was at the top, the industry in America was in a large slump as it was put on the ropes by the steroids and sex scandal. It was transitioning in America to being without a kayfabe presence anymore. Take a look at WCW at the time, they had a decent roster - Flair, Austin, Vader, Cactus Jack, Anderson, Sting, but they couldn't make any headways. Both promotions were being booked abysmally and production levels were through the floor. Question, because I can't recall, did the WWF numbers spike when Flair was there?

I wouldn't suggest Hart was a great draw (frankly, I wouldn't regard many wrestlers ever as a great draw like a Hogan, Cena, Rock, Austin... even the likes of Sting really didn't draw that big), but to pin the WWF's failings, and indeed the industry wide failings which were in force at the same time on Bret Hart or Ric Flair would be overly critical IMO. Scandal and the marketability and lack of marketing of wrestling hurt big time. Bret would have been perfect if there was an out an out top draw in the WWF for Bret to chase, but that was just not the case - Savage was commentating, Flair I really don't think drew that big when he was there and as I understand it had McMahon fuming because he wouldn't wrestle per the script, Hogan had gone, Warrior had gone, Andre god bless his soul had gone.

 

[Big Pete]

That's what I meant by there being a lot of factors involved. However, Bret was never a money guy and even years into his run, fans weren't buying into him (eg Bret v Owen).

The problem was, the fans weren't buying into Luger either. For the fans that stuck around, Bret was the lesser evil.

 

[Scott Gourley's Lovechild]

If he hadn't of had such a heated rivalry with HBK, I'm not sure Bret Hart would have achieved the level of success he did. He still would most likely have been at the top of the card, but not in the title picture for as long as he was.