Bret Hart pins blame for CM Punk’s departure from WWE on Triple H

[God-King Dean]

Slightly OT, but am the only prick who has never enjoyed watching Flair? Granted, I only seen the last decade or so of his career, but I found him very boring. Slap slap, whoo whoo, strut, figure four.

 

[Shaun Hewitt]

Watch his 90's work.
His moveset was pretty much the same, but he didn't look so old and desperate to still be in the ring.

My personal favorite feud featuring him was 4 horsemen Vs nWo.

I've seen a bit of his 80s work too

 

[God-King Dean]

There's a few on YouTube. I'll give them a geez soon.

 

[Shaun Hewitt]

Thats a bit harsh. WWF was going to struggle irrespective of who was at the top, the industry in America was in a large slump as it was put on the ropes by the steroids and sex scandal. It was transitioning in America to being without a kayfabe presence anymore. Take a look at WCW at the time, they had a decent roster - Flair, Austin, Vader, Cactus Jack, Anderson, Sting, but they couldn't make any headways. Both promotions were being booked abysmally and production levels were through the floor. Question, because I can't recall, did the WWF numbers spike when Flair was there?

I wouldn't suggest Hart was a great draw (frankly, I wouldn't regard many wrestlers ever as a great draw like a Hogan, Cena, Rock, Austin... even the likes of Sting really didn't draw that big), but to pin the WWF's failings, and indeed the industry wide failings which were in force at the same time on Bret Hart or Ric Flair would be overly critical IMO. Scandal and the marketability and lack of marketing of wrestling hurt big time. Bret would have been perfect if there was an out an out top draw in the WWF for Bret to chase, but that was just not the case - Savage was commentating, Flair I really don't think drew that big when he was there and as I understand it had McMahon fuming because he wouldn't wrestle per the script, Hogan had gone, Warrior had gone, Andre god bless his soul had gone.

I have the same feeling about when Diesel was champion. People say he couldn't draw
In my eyes, he was a good choice for WWF Champion at the time. 95 was interesting time, you had Mabel (big daddy V) winning KOTR (I think that was his year?) and also main eventing Summerslam. A squash against Backland, Psycho Sid as number one contender. Was also the tag team champions with HBK that was won in a bizarre manner. Hardly top grade booking.

 

[Valheru]

Slightly OT, but am the only prick who has never enjoyed watching Flair? Granted, I only seen the last decade or so of his career, but I found him very boring. Slap slap, whoo whoo, strut, figure four.

1985 - 1993 was his prime.

His feuds with Harley Race, Ricky Steamboat, Vader, Dusty Rhodes etc. are legendary.

His work in the late 90's through to today obviously hasn't been as good and it has been a steady decline. However, he still could cut a killer promo, put over new talent and pull off the odd great match, Examples that immediately come to mind include against Hart at Souled Out 98, HHH taboo Tuesday and Survivor Series 05 and against HBK in his last WWE match.

The debate in this thread has been invigorating and productive, however, if it turns into a Flair vs Hart debate, I can't see how any wrestling fan could rate hart higher on their list than Flair...

 

[Tommy Smith]

Hart was imo a better in-ring worker and storyteller, but then he's better than anyone I've seen. However, Flair was the more complete package given his superior mic skills and ability to cut a promo. And he was a great wrestler in his own right during his prime.

I don't hide the fact that I'm a very traditional wrestling fan; as in I've always valued in-ring work and storytelling above all else. No doubt you do need other attributes; but imo Hart was always so naturally charismatic that he didn't need to cut amazing promos - even though he did some amazing ones when he turned heel in 96/97.

Indeed his charisma is a quality he doesn't get credit for. Crowds would just go apeshit for him around the world as soon as his music hit during his prime. And as a kid I was in awe of him. And that he didn't have to say much to achieve this is a rare talent.

Contrast that with Benoit, who despite his in-ring work I found as interesting as a boiled egg.

So yes, charisma, mic skills and the ability to cut a promo are all essential qualities. And imo Bret had more than enough in those areas to compliment his amazing in-ring work.

No arguments from me though that Flair outrates him in some of those areas.

Personally I don't think anyone combines all those skills as well as Kurt Angle in the last 20 years. Actually Austin would be one. But then I'm definitely alone in that respect.

 

[Eelementary]

Not enough love for Eddie imo - all he has to do was come down to the ring with a fold-out chair and the crowd would go apeshit.

 

[Big Pete]

I should stress that I think everybody mentioned in this thread is at the very least a good worker. Even Diesel could be good when he had somebody there to lay out his matches for him (eg. Survivor Series 95, IYH Best Friends, Better Enemies 96). However, whenever anybody says such and such is THE best and can't understand why some people find them overrated, I believe it's worth going through their flaws.

What it all comes down to is exposure. Unless you really get into it and basically become a nerd for this stuff, chances are, you're always going to care more about the guys from your era than others. Of course, you can go along with the crowd and think guys like Lou Thesz, Buddy Rogers and Ray Stevens were the best but without any tape, how would you know for sure? Things are even tougher in Pro Wrestling in the sense that half the shows these guys perform on aren't even televised. Apparently Bret and Henning had their best ever match on a house show. Flair performed against everybody around the world on non-televised shows and that's where he would build his reputation working that NWA Championship style.

I think they're all great wrestlers and while it's far more interesting to have one guy on top, the reality is it's damn near impossible.

 

[Big Pete]

I have the same feeling about when Diesel was champion. People say he couldn't draw
In my eyes, he was a good choice for WWF Champion at the time. 95 was interesting time, you had Mabel (big daddy V) winning KOTR (I think that was his year?) and also main eventing Summerslam. A squash against Backland, Psycho Sid as number one contender. Was also the tag team champions with HBK that was won in a bizarre manner. Hardly top grade booking.

No it wasn't and there's a few factors that go into a successful run. However, that doesn't change the fact that WWF business was at it's absolute worse with Diesel on top so there's no way you can even call him a good draw. Even in WCW, whenever Nash was positioned as THE top guy business headed south. Without Hogan as the figurehead, fans simply weren't that interested in Nash.

I don't think the company, nor Diesel were ready for that sort of run.

 

[Iafeta]

I still say Savage is immensely underrated. He was charismatic, cut a great promo, lived his gimmick brilliantly (Liz would say too well), could fly, could brawl, had good ring psychology, he'll he carried Warrior to a brilliant match, and had a really cool look. I never regarded his matches as necessarily formulaic either. You had to watch because you didn't know how the body of the match would run.