Can we learn something from super rugby?

[adamkungl]

Walking through Martin place (Sydney cbd) this morning there was a big afl display promotioning afl nines and clear positioning forwomen to get involved. Pretty depressing for an NRL city.

How is it depressing? It's not like there's some rule about being an "NRL city" that prevents them buying ad space. It is in no way symptomatic of any changing sporting trend in the city, except that the AFL wants it.

The depressing part is that we probably have nothing similar in Melbourne.

 

[Perth Red]

They sit on their a*se reading your whining comments and twiddle their thumbs.

Maybe they sit on their ar5e5 reading your "everything's fine in the world' and twiddle their thumbs

 

[Perth Red]

Yes you are correct News had spent $400m and they couldn't give a rats about frontier teams.
The peace deal gave the News mob the Tv rights (F&L) til 2023 .The ARL had no money in the bank,the $20m plus they did have was use to prevent players going to SL and help Gould.
We were screwed by the deal,by the. sheer weight of News money and their media clout.All the ARL had leftover were the players.
It was only as the result of the last Tv deal which involved News Kim Williams ,that the ARLC got the F&L clause removed.And only when News pulled out of the joint ownership,that the NRL could see daylight.
In addition we had clubs so dependent on poker machine monies and run by former players /well meaning people that put many clubs in financially delicate positions such as West Tigers,Sharks,Knights and later incompetence for the Titans.
The code has never had the money like the AFL ATM to throw at expansion clubs,whilst some NRL clubs needed new pro management and financial stability.

I look at it hypothetically,if as a result of the peace deal,News had pulled out of joint ownership with no F&L rights,we would have expanded by now.When we negotiated Tv deals with them ,it was like selling to half of you ,the other half the buyer.Our Tv deals were shown to be crap,when AFL trumped us time and time again.Now we go close to matching them.
The radical downsizing of the Sydney clubs as a result of the peace deal gave the Swans,the Waratahs a huge leg up.I witnessed it first hand dealing with people(Bears' supporters) when I was involved in marketing on the north shore,who went over to the Swans and Tahs,even a few I know from joint venture clubs.
That is why I cannot support any further Sydney team reductions.You can still have expansion,but no more gifts to our competitors.

I've never understood why Sydney people feel they have to have a NRL club representing every suburb or afl will take over despite the fact they have only two clubs representing the whole city? How is that logical? Surely it has a lot more to do with top tier clubs of either code being cool, trendy, engaging, media golden child's, kid friendly etc etc.? This doesn't require a club in every suburb, just a very sophisticated and proactive NRL and clubs.

 

[Perth Red]

How is it depressing? It's not like there's some rule about being an "NRL city" that prevents them buying ad space. It is in no way symptomatic of any changing sporting trend in the city, except that the AFL wants it.

The depressing part is that we probably have nothing similar in Melbourne.

it's depressing because Sydney being NRL heart I saw absolutely nothing relating to the fact the city has 9 NRL clubs in it during my time in Sydney centre yet I saw a very proactive AFL engagement activity. If we can't even engage Sydney, and looking at crowd we aren't, then what hope Melbourne, Perth or anywhere else?

 

[taipan]

I've never understood why Sydney people feel they have to have a NRL club representing every suburb or afl will take over despite the fact they have only two clubs representing the whole city? How is that logical? Surely it has a lot more to do with top tier clubs of either code being cool, trendy, engaging, media golden child's, kid friendly etc etc.? This doesn't require a club in every suburb, just a very sophisticated and proactive NRL and clubs.

I don't believe 2 AFL clubs will take over Sydney for a start.Why? Because the Brisbane Lions episode has shown me exactly the fickle nature of people in rl strongholds towards AFL teams.
" Representing every suburb" ,do you know now how widespread Sydney is?' The Shire represents over 200,000 many suburbs and continues to grow apace.
Sydney's geographics are probably 1 1/2 times those of Melbourne at a minimum with a harbour and Georges River splitting Sydney asunder.
Many of the old suburban clubs like Glebe,Newtown,Balmain have either died,merged or play in a lower their.

Melbourne still retains 9 city clubs,representing suburbs,maybe you should also ask them why it's necessary to have them.
If you consider the Brisbane Lions cool,or the Suns then you have a completely different view to me.
If there was no SL war,the Swans would still be struggling,because Nth sydney would still have the Bears for a start and people would stay aligned with their ARL clubs not merged entities or removal.

Kid friendly? Ever been to a Shark's home game,families everywhere,tripping over kids.You have just as much chance getting kids and families to local games provided decent scheduling ,than you have of sending them off to Spotless stadium kms away.

 

[taipan]

it's depressing because Sydney being NRL heart I saw absolutely nothing relating to the fact the city has 9 NRL clubs in it during my time in Sydney centre yet I saw a very proactive AFL engagement activity. If we can't even engage Sydney, and looking at crowd we aren't, then what hope Melbourne, Perth or anywhere else?

The Storm have had days in the Melbourne city flogging G/F whatever.It's what codes do.
Today you will read no doubt about the Womens' RLWC,that is publicity for rugby league and women in the game.Rugby league is not just sitting on their a*se doing nothing,things do happen.
An academy at Penrith,a Centre of Excellence for the NSWRL at Homebush,contributions and lobbying for new stadiums,a Presidents X111 game, 4 nations.
You know what;s depressing reading and listening to people who whine about this and that,without checking financials of the game what is actually being done,and offering no solutions, except expand no matter what.

 

[adamkungl]

it's depressing because Sydney being NRL heart I saw absolutely nothing relating to the fact the city has 9 NRL clubs in it during my time in Sydney centre yet I saw a very proactive AFL engagement activity. If we can't even engage Sydney, and looking at crowd we aren't, then what hope Melbourne, Perth or anywhere else?

ARLC is bad at something else, nothing to see here...

It's a different culture up here too - sport just isn't treated with the same reverence as the AFL is in Melbourne. No one cares who ya barrack for. Sure, most people have a team, some people are obsessed, but it isn't the first topic of conversation when you meet someone new. And Sydney's more likely to accept outside influences (AFL, NFL, etc) but less likely to religiously obsess about one sport to the exclusion of all others.

 

[Spanner in the works]

If Perth rugby is on its death knell, we really should be jumping on that.

My ideal scenario would be:

Next two years
Wellington
Perth

The establishment of Wellington and Perth initially would help secure a better TV deal through increased time slots, providing a revenue boost for expansion at the end of the next TV deal. It would also target our two biggest rivals (AFL and Rugby) which we should be doing whenever the opportunity presents itself.​

End of next TV deal
Brisbane 2
Central Coast

I think shoring up existing heartlands should be done only once we've got teams in areas that directly combat our biggest rivals. The longer we leave it, the more established AFL and Rugby gets in each area.
​

After that:

Around 2020-25 and commence of relevant new TV deal
PNG
Adelaide

As above re: time slots and securing a better TV deal.

2025 onwards (and end of relevant TV deal)
Depends on the game's growth. Options could include a Fijian based team, a second Melbourne or Perth side, a Darwin side or a Central Queensland side.

​

I'd also like to see from now (with a view to future expansion):

• At least one game per round taken interstate or overseas (within the region), with a view to potential expansion 20-25 years down the track (or beyond). Options could include Tasmania, Indonesia (massive potential market with a huge economy and population base), Fiji, Samoa and others.
• The establishment of on-ground NRL officers in PNG, Fiji, Samoa, Indonesia and other locations to help promote the code overseas. This could be through the provision of grant money, arranging current and former stars to meet with local teams and business owners, arranging attendance for senior executives to attend games in Australia, etc.

​

 

[Marlins]

..

 

[BuffaloRules]

2026

Start up a third division/tier bringing back some of the Sydney teams that were cut in the early 20th Century;

Annandale
Glebe
University

In addition I would have the following teams;

Cessnock Goannas
Mt Gambier
Broome Sweeps ( trying to appeal to the AFL market here)
Uluru Rocks
Hobart Apples
Joondalup Giants ( Perth will be ready for a second team by then)
Coober Pedy Undergrounders
Collingwood Magpies

 

[flippikat]

I've never understood why Sydney people feel they have to have a NRL club representing every suburb or afl will take over despite the fact they have only two clubs representing the whole city? How is that logical? Surely it has a lot more to do with top tier clubs of either code being cool, trendy, engaging, media golden child's, kid friendly etc etc.? This doesn't require a club in every suburb, just a very sophisticated and proactive NRL and clubs.

Exactly. The NRL (and to a lesser degree the AFL) are clinging to a suburban group of teams when the competition is growing beyond that.

Sure, Sydney is a sprawling metropolis, and any cross-city dash to see a game on the other side of town is probably a headache - but spare a thought for North Queensland fans from regional North Queensland, or Warriors fans in NZ that live outside Auckland that travel a lot further to see however many home games they can get to each season.

 

[RoosTah]

How is it depressing? It's not like there's some rule about being an "NRL city" that prevents them buying ad space. It is in no way symptomatic of any changing sporting trend in the city, except that the AFL wants it.

The depressing part is that we probably have nothing similar in Melbourne.

Literally just left Melbourne and saw a bit of Storm stuff about in places. No flags in the cbd, but then I didn't spot any AFL ones in the parts I was in either

 

[taipan]

Literally just left Melbourne and saw a bit of Storm stuff about in places. No flags in the cbd, but then I didn't spot any AFL ones in the parts I was in either

That can only mean AFL code in crisis in Melbourne.

 

[Rhino_NQ]

2026

Start up a third division/tier bringing back some of the Sydney teams that were cut in the early 20th Century;

Annandale
Glebe
University

In addition I would have the following teams;

Cessnock Goannas
Mt Gambier
Broome Sweeps ( trying to appeal to the AFL market here)
Uluru Rocks
Hobart Apples
Joondalup Giants ( Perth will be ready for a second team by then)
Coober Pedy Undergrounders
Collingwood Magpies

i lold

 

[Perth Red]

Cronulla representing 200k is exactly the problem. Would you put a new NRL club in a city of 200k? No because it wouldnt be sustainable.
Why would people turn to AFL because there isnt an NRL club specifically representing North Sydney? AFL don't have a club specifically representing North Sydney. Sure some disgruntled of the 9k North Sydney fans may have abandoned Rl in disgust but anyone born in the last 20 years would not have grown up a Nth Sydney Bears fan and so would surely be a RL fan supporting some other Sydney or other club they decide to attach to, if the NRL was doing a good job in engaging people in Nth Sydney.

 

[taipan]

Cronulla representing 200k is exactly the problem. Would you put a new NRL club in a city of 200k? No because it wouldnt be sustainable.
Why would people turn to AFL because there isnt an NRL club specifically representing North Sydney? AFL don't have a club specifically representing North Sydney. Sure some disgruntled of the 9k North Sydney fans may have abandoned Rl in disgust but anyone born in the last 20 years would not have grown up a Nth Sydney Bears fan and so would surely be a RL fan supporting some other Sydney or other club they decide to attach to, if the NRL was doing a good job in engaging people in Nth Sydney.

Oh our mate is on it again.
It is actually more than 200,000 and needs according to the Govt review another 10,000 residential places within 5 years,it has the 3rd largest junior league in Sydney.It also has numbers of fans on the edges of the Shire ,outer suburbs,bush of NSW.
It is the only club to own its own ground and have a $400m development ,plus secure min $1m pa retail rental income.And the plans for stadium redevelopment.And the locals actually care about the team.
I'll back the former Bronco's CEO Cullen on the Sharks financials and potential,rather than someone who keyboards a couple of thousand km away,and is a renowned expert on expansion and fans' emotions.
Get back to me when the Pirates own NIB,have a joint venture worth $400m plus and regular income for 99 years.

High rise apartments and townhouse villa blocks are being built everywhere,in the Shire
Canberra is about 350,000 with supporters of the three codes.The Raiders do OK.
The saying goes you fish where the fish are.You'd drop a line for barramundi in the Tasman Sea.

Because PR I spent 4 years of my life involved in marketing,met more than a decent number of Bears supporters ATT. as the North Sydney environs was my area.They straight out said they'd given up on rl,and followed the Tahs.Then I met some who went to the fumbling Swans.You do understand or again you don't, fumble ball is now inflicting its code in the private GPS and Associated schools in that Nth Sydney region.
FitzSimons in his rant,stated his old school was one of them.A vacuum was left in that area for rugby league and just a few dedicated people there are doing their best for rl.
I asked about a guy I had known from the South Coast ,a fanatical Dragons fan.I was told was p*ssed off due to the joint venture ,and has little interest in the game.You see the trouble is they can take their kids with them.

See you have NFI about people who lose a club or have it watered down.Some may not go to other codes,but more than a few do.

You also don't get it ,because even the you beaut AFL will not have a team in Tasmania where their are plenty of fans or fish.
The AFL put teams in Brisbane and the GC all with decent populations.Result Lions $13.5m in debt,crowds and money dwindling..GC losing money this year crowds down.The Ru the Force and Rebels,how good are they going LOL.
Putting teams in places with large populations is no guarantee.

 

[RoosTah]

This is very much why moving teams is so tricky - the risk of alienation can outweigh the benefits of the new market isn't receptive, and the new market is likely to have difficulty accepting an obviously transplanted team from another city.
In an ideal world you'd just start afresh with new identities spread more logically like soccer, but rugby league has much deeper roots and so that just isn't going to work.

 

[siv]

Walking through Martin place (Sydney cbd) this morning there was a big afl display promotioning afl nines and clear positioning forwomen to get involved. Pretty depressing for an NRL city.

And gentlemen is the heart of the problem

When was the last time George St had flags for the GF or finals

There should be NRL flags on every light post

Just look at when there is a wallabies test

 

[Perth Red]

Lol you were the one saying cronullas reach is 200k, make your mind up!

So again my point stands, you don't need an NRL club on north Sydney, just as the afl or union don't have a club in north Sydney. The failure was not in kicking out the Bears but in not having a strategy to ensure RL remains the most popular code in that area after the Bears were gone. If the afl had set up the north Sydney Giants you might have a point.

The afl won't have a team in tassie as there isn't the population or corporate support for them to survive, bit like Cronulla lol.

 

[taipan]

Lol you were the one saying cronullas reach is 200k, make your mind up!

So again my point stands, you don't need an NRL club on north Sydney, just as the afl or union don't have a club in north Sydney. The failure was not in kicking out the Bears but in not having a strategy to ensure RL remains the most popular code in that area after the Bears were gone. If the afl had set up the north Sydney Giants you might have a point.

The afl won't have a team in tassie as there isn't the population or corporate support for them to survive, bit like Cronulla lol.

Where did I say reach in these current posts, I stated population of the Shire is 200,000 and growing rapidly, in response to your 200,000,then went on to spell out fans living outside.It's really not that hard to understand ,or is it?
Commonsense( you know doubt have heard of that) suggests there are numbers of Shark's supporters from outside the area.I sit next to 4 of them each season. Sitting behind a keyboard, tucked away in the most isolated city in the world,hardly makes you an authority.

Your point about North Sydney and that also takes in the CC ,shows you have even less of an idea than I thought.The area has the businesses and a growing population and the CC the young rl minded population:1 million people.You just contradicted yourself when you mentioned placing teams with big populations.What the f... is 1m?

The failure was Super league and Murdoch trying to take over a code,which was community based.I attended the meeting at the Shark's leagues club,Meaning,Quayle,L Murdoch,Gow were at the front,where arguments were made for and against SL.
I don't necessarily want a team there at this point in time anyway.I was spelling out the effect of removal of clubs.

" There isn't the population or corporate support in Tasmania " now whose laughing.Tasmania has about 500,000 most of them would be fumbler fans.The AFL has the financials,they could pump $20m pa plus provide grants just as they do for the GC with a similar population,but with a decent rugby league base.
They have Cadburys,Breweries for a start.
The funny thing is people who actually live in Tasmania ,actually disagree with you.
The Lions are going great guns LOL,but but $13.5m debt is nothing.

One big LOL.Just seen the plans released for stage 3 of the Shark's residential development in the St George and Sutherland Leader yesterday,another 238 apartments.
Do you know the corporate support for Cronulla ? Do you know the sponsorship value of the Stadium? Do you have clue as to the profits from the near 700 units ? Were you looking over Cullen's shoulder ,going through the details?Do you know of major residential developments at Green Hills finished,Shearebrook Landing at Wanda about to start building,700 units at Kirrawee on the old brickbat site,a huge residential development on the site
of Caringbah High,or the new development given the green light at Menai?

The only ones to LOL are those with a team in the NRL,not the ones who lost clubs which you are quite happy to suggest should continue ,thus ensuring your mob can get in.
I've got some friendly advice,be humble,be patient and stop the continual bagging of current NRL clubs.Then you might get a team.
Just FYI
The Shire's population was 210,863 in 2011
Now 226,220 in 2015 census
Increasing by 3,800 pa,This does not take into account current construction and development of which there are many.