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Can we learn something from super rugby?

taipan

Referee
Messages
22,500
I take it you meant "officially"?

Yes ,the fact the French union paid their players decades before "official professionalism" and the well rumoured car boot monies available during the amateur years,makes the hilarious. 20 year bit
 

madunit

Super Moderator
Staff member
Messages
62,358
Forms of Shamateurism were alive even as far back as the early 1900's
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
69,900
Where did I say reach in these current posts, I stated population of the Shire is 200,000 and growing rapidly, in response to your 200,000,then went on to spell out fans living outside.It's really not that hard to understand ,or is it?
Commonsense( you know doubt have heard of that) suggests there are numbers of Shark's supporters from outside the area.I sit next to 4 of them each season. Sitting behind a keyboard, tucked away in the most isolated city in the world,hardly makes you an authority.

Your point about North Sydney and that also takes in the CC ,shows you have even less of an idea than I thought.The area has the businesses and a growing population and the CC the young rl minded population:1 million people.You just contradicted yourself when you mentioned placing teams with big populations.What the f... is 1m?

The failure was Super league and Murdoch trying to take over a code,which was community based.I attended the meeting at the Shark's leagues club,Meaning,Quayle,L Murdoch,Gow were at the front,where arguments were made for and against SL.
I don't necessarily want a team there at this point in time anyway.I was spelling out the effect of removal of clubs.

" There isn't the population or corporate support in Tasmania " now whose laughing.Tasmania has about 500,000 most of them would be fumbler fans.The AFL has the financials,they could pump $20m pa plus provide grants just as they do for the GC with a similar population,but with a decent rugby league base.
They have Cadburys,Breweries for a start.
The funny thing is people who actually live in Tasmania ,actually disagree with you.
The Lions are going great guns LOL,but but $13.5m debt is nothing.

One big LOL.Just seen the plans released for stage 3 of the Shark's residential development in the St George and Sutherland Leader yesterday,another 238 apartments.
Do you know the corporate support for Cronulla ? Do you know the sponsorship value of the Stadium? Do you have clue as to the profits from the near 700 units ? Were you looking over Cullen's shoulder ,going through the details?Do you know of major residential developments at Green Hills finished,Shearebrook Landing at Wanda about to start building,700 units at Kirrawee on the old brickbat site,a huge residential development on the site
of Caringbah High,or the new development given the green light at Menai?

The only ones to LOL are those with a team in the NRL,not the ones who lost clubs which you are quite happy to suggest should continue ,thus ensuring your mob can get in.
I've got some friendly advice,be humble,be patient and stop the continual bagging of current NRL clubs.Then you might get a team.
Just FYI
The Shire's population was 210,863 in 2011
Now 226,220 in 2015 census
Increasing by 3,800 pa,This does not take into account current construction and development of which there are many.

don't need to be a local authority, the Sharks membership, crowds and financial reports tell me what I need to know about the reach of your club .Lets hope these new people moving into the area are A) RL fans B) not affiliated with an existing club C) Want to support the sharks. An increase of 16k people? Wow, how are you not a super club? Same period Perth's population went up 600k! No wonder Dockers and eagles are so well supported.

AFL have never been strategically shy to relocate or expand into new areas, If they have decided to not base a club FT in Tassie it is for a reason. Or do you think they just don't like Tasmanians?

For years we've been hearing about what tomorrow will look like for the Sharks, then the financial annual report comes out and it looks as bleak as the year before. When you produce an annual report showing, at least, a neutral bottom line then these predictions of becoming this wealthy NRL club might start to look like a reality. If you don't manage to do it this year with the success on the field then you'd better hope the new tenants are all pokie addicts.

You might have missed it but I have come to the conclusion that now is not the time for a perth NRL team. The NRL simply isn't popular enough, rich enough, visionary enough or run well enough generally to make it a success. Hopefully they will be one day and we may see the game grow. Until then we'll keep propping up clubs and ignoring AFL and its national perception positioning as Australia's Game.

Strangely we want the same thing, NRL will not expand and grow until current clubs are sustainable. You want your club strong, I want the game strong. I have my doubts that we will get to that point in the next 5 years, probably longer, I will be very happy to be proved wrong.

My opinion on if the game should stunt growth due to rescuing failing clubs is hardly going to play any significant role on if the NRL will expand any time soon lol. Even I don't have an ego that big!
 

RoosTah

Juniors
Messages
2,257
To be honest all the talk of the AFL's "national" approach (one that doesn't include the NT, Canberra or Tasmania) tends to ignore the fact that Rugby League is actually present and representative of just as many territories (5 each as it happens) - it's just that one of those territories happens to be New Zealand.

Say what you like about the NRL's development program, but NZ is a ripe place for growing the game and has the added benefit of the junior development being made easier by the large number of transferable skills in Union that make recruiting for any new club far easier for the NRL than in a purely AFL area.

In addition to that, the stronger we make NZ the bigger the national rivalry will be and that's a game the AFL can't have because there's just no way in hell you'll convince anything like a meaningful number of kiwis to follow or play a football code who's name begins with "Australian".

That said, I'm not disputing that the NRL absolutely needs to do better in both Victoria and WA, and also needs to get property active in SA.
 
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taipan

Referee
Messages
22,500
don't need to be a local authority, the Sharks membership, crowds and financial reports tell me what I need to know about the reach of your club .Lets hope these new people moving into the area are A) RL fans B) not affiliated with an existing club C) Want to support the sharks. An increase of 16k people? Wow, how are you not a super club? Same period Perth's population went up 600k! No wonder Dockers and eagles are so well supported.

AFL have never been strategically shy to relocate or expand into new areas, If they have decided to not base a club FT in Tassie it is for a reason. Or do you think they just don't like Tasmanians?

For years we've been hearing about what tomorrow will look like for the Sharks, then the financial annual report comes out and it looks as bleak as the year before. When you produce an annual report showing, at least, a neutral bottom line then these predictions of becoming this wealthy NRL club might start to look like a reality. If you don't manage to do it this year with the success on the field then you'd better hope the new tenants are all pokie addicts.

You might have missed it but I have come to the conclusion that now is not the time for a perth NRL team. The NRL simply isn't popular enough, rich enough, visionary enough or run well enough generally to make it a success. Hopefully they will be one day and we may see the game grow. Until then we'll keep propping up clubs and ignoring AFL and its national perception positioning as Australia's Game.

Strangely we want the same thing, NRL will not expand and grow until current clubs are sustainable. You want your club strong, I want the game strong. I have my doubts that we will get to that point in the next 5 years, probably longer, I will be very happy to be proved wrong.

My opinion on if the game should stunt growth due to rescuing failing clubs is hardly going to play any significant role on if the NRL will expand any time soon lol. Even I don't have an ego that big!



Sorry mate,you don't rely on history, you learn from it,it's what is planned and is happening at the present time.So it's nonsense to suggest you don't need to be a local authority,if you have NFI on what is currently going on.
You crap on about the past financials ,get yourself into the present,we know about the past.ASADA,and the club having huge debt bears no relevance to the future,once the final development washout is realised.
You may as well bring up the financials of the GC or the Knights,it;s not ongoing.
There is a requirement for 10,000 dwellings in the Shire for the next 5 years,in addition to the many developments currently in progress.That is a National planning assessment.

Funny you should say that I see plenty of attendees at times with other clubs' jumpers and their club not playing at the field ATT.Yes its funny about Perth and its growth,that they are just about overwhelmingly AFL fans.
And with that growth your numbers for NRL games played there have actually fallen.Look in your own backyard
it's hardly booming for the NRL based on attendances.So you're right the NRL is not popular enough in Perth,it would appear.And many East Coasters are coming back as the mining jobs are drying up

The Sharks club will have over 2,000 residents right next door and that could increase further with another 120 units planned on the Eastern side with a hotel.But of course tucked away in Perth you are right on to this LOL.
Already with new suburbs nearby at Green Hills and Shearebrook Landing a couple of thousand more have moved and will move in.And a huge development at Caringbah High site.
Of course there is no guarantee population increase means the same increase for the Sharks.That's a Dorothy Dixer.


We're in the process of being a super club,own our own ground have min $40-$50m in the bank,a refurbished licensed club,$1m pa rental,full sponsorship bank and a rebuilt stadium planned.

Brisbane with 2m gets a 30,000 average ,think he Sharks(15,000) have a higher proportion of fans per capita.
They(AFL) are hardly doing wonders in Qld with the L:ions and GC ,and their clubs lost $90m plus this year.Yep they are doing wonders $100m here and there ,like throwing confetti in the air.

Have to laugh with your snipe the Sharks average 14,577 was higher than South Sydney with a huge membership,Warriors 14,302,Eels 13,929 .GC Titans 13,806,Canberra 13,214 and only a couple of thousand less than the Cowboys.
The AFL haven't gone into Tasmania for what reason?.There is plenty off support there .That code knows how to sh*t off their fans,thumb their noses at Tasmanians,give confetti money to the Nthn Clubs $200m so far,and the Qld effort has turned into a nightmare.And upset many local Vic clubs.
You do understand the NRL doesn't have ATM an extra $40m pa to throw at any 2 clubs.

You need to look at TV deals concluded from 2005 right through to 2015,and see why the AFL has had the jump financially,and why after the SL war the code had zero funds on hand.The 2005 deal with Gallop $500m over 6 years AFL $780m over 5 years.Ask yourself why the fumblers had the extra money from the start.

If you believe letting clubs like the Titans,Knights,Tigers fold is going to assist the code,it shows exactly why you living over in Perth has no idea of the effect losing those clubs would have.Yet you couldn;t give a rats.
You are either trolling or sucking on too many bitter lemons.
 

siv

First Grade
Messages
6,765
Wonder how long it will take the new residents to clamp down on the noise from sport events

Just like Milson Point residents made Luna Park a shadow of its former self
 

taipan

Referee
Messages
22,500
Once as fortnight for 80 minutes(yes that will be noisy),with sound proof glass ,is hardly a major catastrophe.The noise issue would have been brought up by potential buyers ,with any brain in their head .There is a stadium next door,people will be whispering o_O
People are living in many units near Westfield Miranda with 7 days a week noise issues.Ditto Darling Harbour,that is 21st Century living.
Luna Park is operating more than 80 minutes and for more days weekly.
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
69,900
Unbelievably we've just had a race track at Perth airport closed down due to one local resident complaining about noise! It's a fricking airport for christs sake and he's worried about some cars?
 

taipan

Referee
Messages
22,500
Unbelievably we've just had a race track at Perth airport closed down due to one local resident complaining about noise! It's a fricking airport for christs sake and he's worried about some cars?

Planes>Cars.

People from Kurnell to Cronulla,to Caringbah,to Brighton ,to Alexandria,to Eastgardens where there are stacks of units have lived with planes .
Most planes track over Kurnell and Eastgardens or Sydney inner west.It's(the development)not in the flight path.

When the EPA was involved in the initial development plans all factors would have been taken into account: from the mangroves,noise,traffic issues,drainage.The developers and club had open days where experts were questioned on every subject .Again I attended one of these open days,as a concerned resident and fan.
The biggest noise comes from the double bogie sand and clear fill trucks going back & forth to Wanda and the sandhills that have been denuded.
80 minutes a fortnight is not going to bust eardrums of residents.I think the windows can cover for it.
They wouldn't sell out two stage 400+ so quickly.

The biggest problem in that area is traffic at peak hour 6pm Mon-Friday(all of Sydney) and summer when people are heading to the beach.
When you live in Sydney traffic,noise ,poor infrastructure ,population density are par for the course.

Thank heavens we don't do the Viking Clap,the club would be run out of town,with the noise.:rolleyes:
 

Rhino_NQ

Immortal
Messages
33,050
will always be geniuss like ones that move into a place near or even next door to a pub/club/centre that has live music and whinge about the noise the whole time. Govts/councils etc will gladly blatantly ignore the views of 10's/100's of thousands of people but have that one dickhead make a stupid and ridiculous complaint and it's light out
 

docbrown

Coach
Messages
11,842
To be honest all the talk of the AFL's "national" approach (one that doesn't include the NT, Canberra or Tasmania) tends to ignore the fact that Rugby League is actually present and representative of just as many territories (5 each as it happens) - it's just that one of those territories happens to be New Zealand.

Think of it in an NFL fashion and consider the traditional media markets:

AFL Markets:
WA Metro - NRL 0 AFL 2 (+WAFL)
WA Country - NRL 0 AFL 2 (+WAFL)
SA (regional SA is too small) - NRL 0 AFL 2 (+SAFL)
VIC Country - NRL 0 AFL 1/2 (Geelong technically but mainly Melbourne AFL + VFL)
VIC Metro - NRL 1 (Storm) AFL 10 (Geelong is part of the metro)
TAS - NRL 0 AFL 0 (but VFL presence)

NT - NRL 0 AFL 0 (but the brand support is around 50/50)

NRL Markets:
ACT - NRL 1 (Raiders + Sydney NRL Presence) AFL 1/2 (GWS token presence + some AFL presence)
NSW Metro (including CC) - NRL 9 AFL 2
NSW Southern - NRL 1 arguably 2 (Dragons + some Raiders + additional Sydney NRL club presence) AFL 1/2 (GWS but a token presence but some Melbourne AFL club presence)
NSW Northern (Newcastle to the border) - NRL 1 arguably 2 (Knights & some Titans + Sydney NRL club presence) AFL 1/2 (some Suns)
QLD Metro (including GC) - NRL 2 (Broncos & Titans + QRL & Sydney NRL club presence) AFL 2 (plus VFL expat support)
QLD Country - NRL 1 AFL 0
NZ - NRL 1 AFL 0

The NRL needs to put teams in Adelaide & Perth to gain presence into 3 AFL markets (WA Metro & Country & SA).

The AFL would need to put teams in NZ (Auckland most logical), QLD Country (Townsville or Cairns), NSW Northern (Newcastle), NSW Southern (Wollongong), & ACT (Canberra). At the moment they've got a token presence in the GWS side.

I'll leave it to others to decide what's more likely to occur.
 
Messages
14,736
The NRL could easily start the ball rolling with Adelaide and Perth for a national footprint.

They could easily get a 2nd NZ side.

I'm not sure why they aren't securing the commercial and consortium bidders to stump up a $5million joining fee and go from there.

There's heaps of interest out there - commercial, fans, govt...I just don't know why the NRL aren't sowing seeds there.
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
69,900
Too busy writing checks to bail out the existing clubs that have had 50-100 years to sort themselves out.

Good post Doc but the AFL model is not interested in regional areas at a top tier. They have clearly gone hard at the big capital cities with regular presence in small capital cities. They see that as where the money, people and TV $'s are. When you look at TV regional NSw is massive for NRl viewing, if we were just relying on Sydney we'd be screwed. Regional Qlnd less though other than the GC.

the AFL model requires clubs to be able to generate $40-60mill revenue. Regional cities would really struggle to achieve that, its why we wont see AFL teams outside capital cities ever.

Even in NRL where clubs require $20-30 mill revenue we have seen all the regional city clubs; GC, Illawarra, Newcastle, Gosford, Townsville and Canberra struggle to generate football revenue. Of that group only cowboys have come good and that is on the back of a possibly once in a lifetime marquee player. Canberra are fine as they have massive leagues club support. GC look to be emerging but too early to say long term.
 
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docbrown

Coach
Messages
11,842
Good post Doc but the AFL model is not interested in regional areas at a top tier. They have clearly gone hard at the big capital cities with regular presence in small capital cities. They see that as where the money, people and TV $'s are.

See you say it's because they're not interested &/or can't afford to compete. You see sports leagues all around the world have tiny little clubs going up against its powerhouses.

If the AFL could host games -- not clubs, just hosting exhibition matches -- in Newcastle, Townsville, Wollongong, Gosford etc from AFL teams in those cities they would -- but they CAN'T. Look at Wellington - there was no game this year because the interest died off. It's not about generating revenue, it's about generating interest. That comes first.

The AFL target the big cities because that's where the majority of the southern expats live. Those aren't all new eyeballs.

They can't get sustainable support in those regional areas. It's 3.3 million people in NSW, 2.1 million in QLD, 0.4 million in ACT plus another 4.5 million in New Zealand -- about 9.9 million people and growing that they won't ever really directly connect with.

For the NRL it's 0.5 million in Tasmania, 1.7 million in Victoria, 1.7 million in South Australia, 2.6 million in WA -- 6.4 million. After a Perth & Adelaide club it would be 2.2 million.

I mean some of these area in NSW & QLD are going to be massive by 2040 to 2050 -- Gold Coast 1.1 million, Hunter 1 million, Canberra 750k, Wollongong 600k, Sunshine Coast 600k, Townsville & Cairns combined 600k, Central Coast 500k.

It's all well and good to hope GWS & Suns grow to be as big as the Swans & Lions -- I mean it's debatable how successful the Lions, Suns & GWS even are...

But if the AFL -- and the NRL too for that manner -- treats these areas like some rural backwater then it will be to their disadvantage.
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
69,900
TBf those regional areas are NRL heartlands and when we host games in some of them they can draw low crowds. There must be some ratio of poplulation to sports interest? They know there is interest in Tassie, Darwin and ACT so they have games being played in those areas consistently. Their is ittle interest in AFL in those smaller cities as AFL hasnt invested anything in them, same as NRL in Adelaide where current crowds are sub 10k.

re growing, well if you dont plant seeds and nurture them one thing I can guarantee is there will be no growth! 600k population isnt massive in sports club terms, especially AFL where the revenue needed is so large.
 
Messages
14,736
It's somewhat ironic David gallop is talking a league expansion but not before they see what TV money they get and not before the ten existing clubs are financially secure.
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
69,900
Difference is Aleague has never had an issue cutting its dead wood loose if they aren't performing.
 

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