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Cavs v Warriors

Mr Saab

Referee
Messages
27,762
Come on man, I'm not a lebron fan but you can not hate on the guy this series, he is doing everything and has been remarkable thus far but he looked tired today, playing big minutes and most plays running through him is taking its toll, an extra days rest now but warriors confident and going back home, Gonna be tough for cavs now

LeBron has no support cast, and he is putting up numbers...and showed up in the 4th today, but he has to be consistent. LEADERS do NOT go scoreless in 4th 1/4s....esp allehged GOAT players.
Suprised Cavs won even 2 games this series, so props to the Cavs and LeBron
 

Rod

Bench
Messages
3,746
LOL.

Putting up near 40 point triple doubles in 4 out of 5 finals games.

If only that LeBron wasn't so darn inconsistent.
 

Craig Johnston

First Grade
Messages
5,396
yeah i don't think even jordan himself would have been able to do much with his team say without pippen and kukoc, of course he never had to so it's open to debate. so you can't criticise him too harshly.

but what you can say is that lebron HAS an opportunity right now to bring himself to that echolon if not higher by taking this side by the scruff of the neck for the next 2 games and unloading 55-60+

is he good enough to do it? wouldn't write it off completely
 

Rod

Bench
Messages
3,746
The 'Lebron isn't clutch' criticism is an outdated myth that has been more or less completely disproven by guys smarter than you and I. Way more often than not in the 4th quarter he shoulders the burden himself, sometimes even moreso than the previous quarters, not to mention these days he always demands the ball (sometimes to his team's detriment IMO, but that's another argument) when the game is still on the line on the last play.

For argument's sake these are his 4th quarters these finals:

Game 1: 11 points, 2 reb, 3 ast
Game 2: 10 points, 4 reb, 2 ast
Game 3: 14 points, 2 reb, 1 ast
Game 4: 0 points, 3 reb, 1 ast
Game 5: 16 points, 2 reb, 2 ast

An average of 10.2 points, 2.6 rebounds and 1.8 assists in the 4th quarter. Extrapolated to a whole game with those figures he'd average 40.8, 10.4 and 7.2, which isn't too far off what he's actually averaging this series.

Apart from the odd outlier there is little solid evidence that Lebron isn't clutch, in fact I've read studies whose numbers actually suggest the opposite, that he's one of the more clutch players of the modern era.
 

Craig Johnston

First Grade
Messages
5,396
The 'Lebron isn't clutch' criticism is an outdated myth that has been more or less completely disproven by guys smarter than you and I. Way more often than not in the 4th quarter he shoulders the burden himself, sometimes even moreso than the previous quarters, not to mention these days he always demands the ball (sometimes to his team's detriment IMO, but that's another argument) when the game is still on the line on the last play.

For argument's sake these are his 4th quarters these finals:

Game 1: 11 points, 2 reb, 3 ast
Game 2: 10 points, 4 reb, 2 ast
Game 3: 14 points, 2 reb, 1 ast
Game 4: 0 points, 3 reb, 1 ast
Game 5: 16 points, 2 reb, 2 ast

An average of 10.2 points, 2.6 rebounds and 1.8 assists in the 4th quarter. Extrapolated to a whole game with those figures he'd average 40.8, 10.4 and 7.2, which isn't too far off what he's actually averaging this series.

Apart from the odd outlier there is little solid evidence that Lebron isn't clutch, in fact I've read studies whose numbers actually suggest the opposite, that he's one of the more clutch players of the modern era.

Averaging the same 4th quarter as game average doesn't make a convincing claim for clutch. And you've also excluded his OT disappearing acts this season
 

Rod

Bench
Messages
3,746
Averaging the same 4th quarter as game average doesn't make a convincing claim for clutch.

It depends, for a normal player no that argument wouldn't really help them, but because he's performing at such a high level in the other quarters even matching those numbers is impressive.

At any rate it certainly doesn't suggest he goes missing or can't handle the pressure or any other such rubbish.

He's actually averaging 36 pg this series, so his output actually has increased in the 4th quarter anyway.
 

Shorty

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
15,555
Read what I wrote. 4th 1/4 performances...crunch time
Are you actually watching the games?
Did you read the stats in his last quarter?

Lebron is carrying that team, did you entertain the thought that maybe in the 4th his exhausted from doing everything the whole game?
 

God-King Dean

Immortal
Messages
46,614
apologist
əˈpɒlədʒɪst/
noun

noun: apologist; plural noun: apologists
  1. a person who offers an argument in defence of something controversial.
    "he truly believed that Lebron was fit to tie Jordan's shoelaces"
 

Shorty

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
15,555
apologist
əˈpɒlədʒɪst/
noun

noun: apologist; plural noun: apologists
  1. a person who offers an argument in defence of something controversial.
    "he truly believed that Lebron was fit to tie Jordan's shoelaces"
lol.
He's never been Jordan, he tarnished his legacy leaving Cleveland that first time but he's throwing everything in this finals and is putting up record numbers and his team is still losing.

It isn't fair to blame Lebron when several starters are missing from that team.

That said his arrogance does him no favours with detractors.
 

Craig Johnston

First Grade
Messages
5,396
It depends, for a normal player no that argument wouldn't really help them, but because he's performing at such a high level in the other quarters even matching those numbers is impressive.

At any rate it certainly doesn't suggest he goes missing or can't handle the pressure or any other such rubbish.

He's actually averaging 36 pg this series, so his output actually has increased in the 4th quarter anyway.

well not really because he's supposedly the best of this generation and he should be putting on more numbers with key scoring team members missing.

here are the nba all time top finals scoring averages;

Points per Player Team Games
game
46.3 Jerry West* Los Angeles Lakers 6
45.2 Michael Jordan* Chicago Bulls 5
45 Michael Jordan* (2) Chicago Bulls 3
43.7 Michael Jordan* (3) Chicago Bulls 3
43 Michael Jordan* (4) Chicago Bulls 5
42.6 Bernard King* New York Knicks 5
41 Michael Jordan* (5) Chicago Bulls 6
40.8 Rick Barry* San Francisco Warriors 6
40.6 Elgin Baylor* Los Angeles Lakers 7
39.8 Michael Jordan* (6) Chicago Bulls 5

those blokes have stepped up higher than james with better players around them
 

betcats

Referee
Messages
23,956
lol.
He's never been Jordan, he tarnished his legacy leaving Cleveland that first time but he's throwing everything in this finals and is putting up record numbers and his team is still losing.

It isn't fair to blame Lebron when several starters are missing from that team.

That said his arrogance does him no favours with detractors.

Also playing in the East has helped lebron a lot, that easy run to the conference finals every year will be used against in all time discussions, already is actually.

yz8FH5x.jpg
 

Rod

Bench
Messages
3,746
well not really because he's supposedly the best of this generation and he should be putting on more numbers with key scoring team members missing.

here are the nba all time top finals scoring averages;

Points per Player Team Games
game
46.3 Jerry West* Los Angeles Lakers 6
45.2 Michael Jordan* Chicago Bulls 5
45 Michael Jordan* (2) Chicago Bulls 3
43.7 Michael Jordan* (3) Chicago Bulls 3
43 Michael Jordan* (4) Chicago Bulls 5
42.6 Bernard King* New York Knicks 5
41 Michael Jordan* (5) Chicago Bulls 6
40.8 Rick Barry* San Francisco Warriors 6
40.6 Elgin Baylor* Los Angeles Lakers 7
39.8 Michael Jordan* (6) Chicago Bulls 5

those blokes have stepped up higher than james with better players around them

Those figures are incomplete and are just point-scoring averages. Look at James' all-round contribution across points, rebounds and assists (not a perfect measure but better than just points) and see if they're better than the guys listed above. I'll give you a spoiler: they are.

I haven't mentioned Michael and don't have any real interest in comparing the two (yet) but even a casual fan of basketball knows that Michael had more help in most areas (eg. Rodman getting all their rebounds) than LeBron could ever hope to have in this particular series.

Lebron has taken on an historically huge workload in this series and the fact that some people expect him to be scoring MORE is staggering.
 

Rod

Bench
Messages
3,746
well not really because he's supposedly the best of this generation and he should be putting on more numbers with key scoring team members missing.

here are the nba all time top finals scoring averages;

Points per Player Team Games
game
46.3 Jerry West* Los Angeles Lakers 6
45.2 Michael Jordan* Chicago Bulls 5
45 Michael Jordan* (2) Chicago Bulls 3
43.7 Michael Jordan* (3) Chicago Bulls 3
43 Michael Jordan* (4) Chicago Bulls 5
42.6 Bernard King* New York Knicks 5
41 Michael Jordan* (5) Chicago Bulls 6
40.8 Rick Barry* San Francisco Warriors 6
40.6 Elgin Baylor* Los Angeles Lakers 7
39.8 Michael Jordan* (6) Chicago Bulls 5

those blokes have stepped up higher than james with better players around them

What? It makes sense that the best scorer on the team steps up easier when he has better players around him. If anything that helps James' case :?.

These figures are also for a playoff series, not finals.
 

Aragorn

First Grade
Messages
6,764
Just as long as GS walks home with the trophy, I'm 100% sure they wont mind Lebron putting up numbers, breaking all individual records, and proclaiming himself as the best there was and ever will be.

It all means nothing if it doesnt come with a Championship.

GS in 6.
 

Rod

Bench
Messages
3,746
Just as long as GS walks home with the trophy, I'm 100% sure they wont mind Lebron putting up numbers, breaking all individual records, and proclaiming himself as the best there was and ever will be.

It all means nothing if it doesnt come with a Championship.

LeBron himself wouldn't disagree with all that. He's stated multiple times he wishes he didn't have to play this way. In previous tilts at the championship with better support he much prefers to pick and choose his shots and general output.

There's no question GSW is the better team. It's amazing the Cavs have even done as much as they have these finals.

LeBron is the MVP so far though. Will be interesting to see if they give it to him if/when Cleveland lose. Hard to say without knowing how others will play in Game 6 as well though I guess. If Curry has even a pretty good game and GSW win he'll probably get it.
 

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