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Coach Flanno

Parko1310

Juniors
Messages
1,356
Just curious: hookers routinely don't play 80 minutes these days. Why is that? Is it really that taxing a role?
Because their ability to manipulate the ruck and have a good running game has become much more important. Defending in the middle and routinely making the most tackles out of any other play in the team is extremely taxing and impacts their ability to do this effectively. Add to that following the ruck every play in attack. It's important to have two hookers given what a fresh dummy-half's impact can do to change a game. Just look at the ANZAC Day game this year to see how Liddle's impact completely changed the course of the game.
 

possm

Coach
Messages
15,710
Just curious: hookers routinely don't play 80 minutes these days. Why is that? Is it really that taxing a role?
Yes when you think about it, a hooker defends in the middle and is often in the first line of defense with big forwards to tackle. In attack, a hooker needs to be at the play the ball every tackle to feed the ball out of the ruck.
 

Old Timer

Coach
Messages
17,445
Yes when you think about it, a hooker defends in the middle and is often in the first line of defense with big forwards to tackle. In attack, a hooker needs to be at the play the ball every tackle to feed the ball out of the ruck.
Cameron Smith is the benchmark and the things most notable about him are
1. He didn’t get to dummy half every play and was often a link outwide.
2. Other key spine players like Slater were allowed to and in fact encouraged get into dummy half on a “play what’s in front of you” basis.
3. Smith rarely committed early to tackles and was very often 3rd man in on tackles slowing down the play.
4. Smith would stand near the ruck giving directions to others rather than running all the plays himself Thurston was also a master at this.
5. Smith managed his workload to ensure he didn’t get gassed.
 

Mojo

Bench
Messages
3,783
Cameron Smith is the benchmark and the things most notable about him are
1. He didn’t get to dummy half every play and was often a link outwide.
2. Other key spine players like Slater were allowed to and in fact encouraged get into dummy half on a “play what’s in front of you” basis.
3. Smith rarely committed early to tackles and was very often 3rd man in on tackles slowing down the play.
4. Smith would stand near the ruck giving directions to others rather than running all the plays himself Thurston was also a master at this.
5. Smith managed his workload to ensure he didn’t get gassed.
This is why I ask the question. I always believed Cameron Myth was generally over-hyped but he certainly played 'smart'. He was almost never the first-in in a tackle. Many hookers play a hyperactive style these days like some sort of demented kamikaze pilots. I've always considered hooker to be a thinking, tactical position first and foremost. Smooth and smart is more effective than fast and in the thick of it.
 
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TheRev

Coach
Messages
10,338
Pro's & Con's to an 80min hooker:
o Pro: You've saved 2 interchanges plus you could carry a dynamic back or an extra forward on the bench.
o Con: You wont get the same energy & threat from dummy half that you would from that fresh set of legs.

The mention of Cam Smith above, sort of points to the advantages of a 7 who became a 9... i.e. you have of an extra playmaker (and kicker) who has his hands on the ball first.... both of our halves Hunt and KFlan could tick that box.. but Smith is probably a future immortal so its not quite fare to compare.. but there is some crossover there.. That said I am really hoping our 2 blokes kill it in the halves.. it will change everything if they do.... but its an option in the future depending how things play out.
 

hewi

Bench
Messages
4,068
Christian Nicolussi

By Christian Nicolussi

January 20, 2024 — 12.00pm
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St George Illawarra coach Shane Flanagan has turned to his old Cronulla blueprint for how best to utilise Zac Lomax and Tyrell Sloan when it comes to the Dragons’ No.1 jersey.
Just as he enjoyed success rotating Ben Barba with Valentine Holmes – and even Michael Gordon – during games at Cronulla, Flanagan has been tinkering with a similar tactic during summer with Lomax and Sloan.
https://archive.md/KWdBE#




The pair have chopped and changed between fullback, centre and even wing, regularly rotating between positions at training.
Sloan has resumed full training after overcoming an ankle injury at the Koori Knockout and is regarded as the early front-runner for the No.1 jumper, while Lomax, an established centre, has enjoyed being given plenty of time to secure the custodian’s role.

“Zac has been training really well and interchanging between fullback and centre, and doing a really good job,” Flanagan said. “He’s fit, strong and wins nearly everything with our testing.
“I might do a bit of Sloan and Lomax swapping around a bit. I did it with Ben Barba and Michael Gordon, and Barba and Val Holmes. They’re practising that a bit at the moment. I’m not saying they are going to do it, but it’s an option. We did it with Val to get him to learn about footy and play a bit of fullback. It frees them up a bit.
The Dragons could rotate Tyrell Sloan and Zac Lomax at fullback during games.

The Dragons could rotate Tyrell Sloan and Zac Lomax at fullback during games.CREDIT: NRL PHOTOS
“As long as you don’t start confusing yourself, it [has merit]. It’s not a big swap. It would be done on changeovers and penalties. It’s not like you’re swapping positions during the run of play. But it could work at some point.”
Skipper Ben Hunt has enjoyed watching Lomax, 24, and Sloan, 21, shuffle between positions, but his preference was to have a regular fullback locked in by the time the season kicks off.


“I like it at the moment how they’re interchanging and learning different parts of the game and where they need to be,” Hunt said. “They’ve both trained on the wing a bit as well. But the longer the pre-season goes, we need to lock it down, and that’s when you get your combinations together.”
Melbourne are another NRL club that springs to mind when it comes to having the luxury of shuffling Ryan Papenhuyzen, Nick Meaney and Sua Fa’alogo in and out of fullback during games.
Flanagan knows the Dragons’ roster lacks big-name players, but he is happy with what he has seen during summer. Plenty of armchair critics will have the Dragons favourites to finish in the bottom four.
“We’re fitter, stronger and faster. Our training has gone to another level, so I have every confidence we’ll have a good season,” Flanagan said.

“We don’t have a lot of elite rep players in our team, but we have some really good players who will do a really good job. They’ll play my style and defend – you’ll see things we haven’t seen before in a Dragons’ jersey with the way we defend. We’ll be OK. We’ll be good. Genuine Dragons fans will see that early days.”
 

TheRev

Coach
Messages
10,338
They might do a half each in the trial.. but id be surprised if there is any swapsies come Round 1.. i cant imagine its for Lomaxes benefit just Sloans.. and its a bit different to say a rookie 19yr Ben Rumble coming in and needing to be protected from fullback defensive duties. Sloan is 21.5, 6ft, 2 seasons of 1st grade.. hes as ready as hes gonna be..
 

Trifili13

Juniors
Messages
855
Defensive overhaul - the players will now tackle for the whole game. Revolutionary, at least for the Dragon's for the last few years.
 

BlackDuckSaint

Juniors
Messages
667
Just curious: hookers routinely don't play 80 minutes these days. Why is that? Is it really that taxing a role?
Since the advent of the 6 again rule it has been rarer and rarer to have an 80 minute hooker.

Hookers that do play big minutes have seen their missed tackle count rise as a result of the fatigue and the speed of the game.

It is just such a huge ask to ask a player to defend in the middle for 80 minutes and STILL be effective at controlling the ruck in attack.

When the 6 again rule was introduced. They thought Damien Cook was going to absolutely dominate. But... Because he was fatigued due to the extra defense needed around the ruck, his attacking stats dropped off.

Cam Smith was only in the 6 again era for 1 season so it is hard to judge. But he was just so quick between the ears.

He could control the tempo of the game better than any player in history. You played at Cam's speed. He was a master of pushing the envelope to get what he wanted put of referees. He was just a genius, love him or hate him, he was the best.

Just look at this Panthers team. Absolutely dominant. But they couldn't beat Cam. Didn't even come close.
 

The Word

Juniors
Messages
289
Cameron Smith is the benchmark and the things most notable about him are
1. He didn’t get to dummy half every play and was often a link outwide.
2. Other key spine players like Slater were allowed to and in fact encouraged get into dummy half on a “play what’s in front of you” basis.
3. Smith rarely committed early to tackles and was very often 3rd man in on tackles slowing down the play.
4. Smith would stand near the ruck giving directions to others rather than running all the plays himself Thurston was also a master at this.
5. Smith managed his workload to ensure he didn’t get gassed.
Thanks OT great analysis as usual. I do remember in Cameron's early days, he was much more likely to rush in and be first in the tackle, incredible technique and ridiculous strength for his size. But using his brain, and maybe on advice from Bellamy, he calmed this down a bit.
 

MugaB

Coach
Messages
14,029
Pro's & Con's to an 80min hooker:
o Pro: You've saved 2 interchanges plus you could carry a dynamic back or an extra forward on the bench.
o Con: You wont get the same energy & threat from dummy half that you would from that fresh set of legs.

The mention of Cam Smith above, sort of points to the advantages of a 7 who became a 9... i.e. you have of an extra playmaker (and kicker) who has his hands on the ball first.... both of our halves Hunt and KFlan could tick that box.. but Smith is probably a future immortal so its not quite fare to compare.. but there is some crossover there.. That said I am really hoping our 2 blokes kill it in the halves.. it will change everything if they do.... but its an option in the future depending how things play out.
Benny Elias was the benchmark, of a halfback put into a hooking role, Cameron smith i think was a 5/8th, but really it's basically the same thing, guys like Peter Wallace, tough as nails moved from halves to hooker, pretty easily, its become a natural transiston for some... Kyle could be another, lets see how much traffic he gets in the middle
 

Dragons4me

Juniors
Messages
1,257
Cameron Smith is the benchmark and the things most notable about him are
1. He didn’t get to dummy half every play and was often a link outwide.
2. Other key spine players like Slater were allowed to and in fact encouraged get into dummy half on a “play what’s in front of you” basis.
3. Smith rarely committed early to tackles and was very often 3rd man in on tackles slowing down the play.
4. Smith would stand near the ruck giving directions to others rather than running all the plays himself Thurston was also a master at this.
5. Smith managed his workload to ensure he didn’t get gassed.
Excellent summation. Exactly this!
 

Inisai Toga

Juniors
Messages
1,518
Benny Elias was the benchmark, of a halfback put into a hooking role, Cameron smith i think was a 5/8th, but really it's basically the same thing, guys like Peter Wallace, tough as nails moved from halves to hooker, pretty easily, its become a natural transiston for some... Kyle could be another, lets see how much traffic he gets in the middle
Plus Elias was also in an era where scrums were still a physical contest, unlike Smith’s era…chews up a fair bit of energy.
 

justadragon

Bench
Messages
3,589
Geez, Flanno is making a lot of promises to Dragons fans. Sounds either very confident that his method will work or he is deluded. Certainly putting pressUte on himself!
I dont think Flanno has made any outrageous promises, all of us and Flanno knew they had to get fit and defend better, I think they have improved their fitness no doubt, and Flanno will definitively have a defensive plan.
 

justadragon

Bench
Messages
3,589
This is why I ask the question. I always believed Cameron Myth was generally over-hyped but he certainly played 'smart'. He was almost never the first-in in a tackle. Many hookers play a hyperactive style these days like some sort of demented kamikaze pilots. I've always considered hooker to be a thinking, tactical position first and foremost. Smooth and smart is more effective than fast and in the thick of it.
Cam Smith will probably be the next immortal and imo one of the best RL players ever, could read and control the game, defensively exceptional. When we were having our coaching dilemmas i was wishing that we could get him as AC with a view to take over in a couple of years, but I guess we will see him at the Storm or somewhere in QLD when he has had enough of earning millions with the media :)
 
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