Defense issue for Millers( & others)

[blacktip-reefy]

I'm not getting your point.
Just ask the question & I will answer it.
But you side stepped again.
Do you want to subjectively assess defense? Rather than mathematically?
Sorry but you will lose that one.

You asked the role of a hooker.
To stand between two big guys in forming a group movement that is reduntant & pre-determined in it's result.
A dummy half is a role usually performed by, but not limited to, hookers.
Nowadays, the "dummy half" has a vital role as a key play maker for the team. This includes spotting lazy defense to obtain metres, extracting penalties, switching play to distributors on either side of the ruck & kicking from dummy half.
In defense they play in their defensive team, which ever that may be. Centre 4, right 3, left 3, back 3. usually, this is centre 4.
Role of half back in defense is to tackle. Not avoid making tackles.
Kimmorleys reluctance to join in the defensive work means the centre 4 are effectively a centre 3. perhaps this is why we bleed a lot of points up the middle & why the likes of Nuttley & Hilder have the number 1 & 2 tackle counts in the NRL.
FTR, Kimmorley has approx half the number of tackles than every other half in the comp.
e.g. Finch is well over 300 tackles.

So, having proved with out doubt that Kimmorley evades defensive work in order to have more juice for attack, (something I don't have a problem with) how is Sullys role by playing less time, different?

Have I answered everything?

 

[millersnose]

talking about evasive

i will try once more

i would think it reasonable to expect a guy who averages 50 minutes a game - comes on fresh after the intitial onslaught - and plays in the forwards

i would expect such a player to have a much better average than a 80 minute half back

 

[blacktip-reefy]

I cant tell if that is statement or a question.
If it is a question, then you maybe right. maybe wrong.
It's not what I expect from a guy who averages "65 minutes".
And sullivans averages are much better than BK's. In all areas.

But if you expect that, then surely you would expect a hell of alot more from Kimmorley. 80 minute player.
e.g.
Kurt Gidley
350 tackles
2 misses avg.

 

[millersnose]

let me tell you

less fatigue affecting his game

anyway

this is going in circles

over to you for the last word

 

[Jimbo]

Most of Kimmorley's missed tackles occur when he chases his own kicks.

He frequently leads the chase, because his kicks are so well placed he's the only one who knows where they are going. Many times he doesn't manage to wrap up the fullback/winger himself, but the process of avoiding the tackle results in a loss of at least 10 metres on each kick-return. So while Noddy might be listed as missing say, 5 tackles per game doing this, it means the opposition misses out on 50 metres.

Worth it, I reckon...

 

[blacktip-reefy]

I don't think its going in circles.
I was concerned at your criticisms of Sully so I looked into it further to try and find evidence to support your criticisms.
I can't understand that there is such a huge disparity between your appreciation of Kimmorley & criticism of Sullivan.
Especially now that I have seen the defensive records of both players compared to each other & all other players in the NRL playing the same positions.

End result, is
that both players are a liability in defense. kimmoley slightly worse than Sully.
Sully is making more tackles in 60 minutes than BK in 80.
Sully is making roughly 20% less tackles than other centre 4 defenders in the comp(Avg).
BK is making half the amount of tackles of all other NRL halves.
BK by evading defensive work is leading the try assists in the NRL
Sully by evading first 15-20 minutes is the number one impact player in the game ATM.
, & leads kimmorley on line breaks & offloads & trails him by 8 in try assists.

Both have to improve their defense for the Sharks to improve the defensive problems.

 

[blacktip-reefy]

Most of Kimmorley's missed tackles occur when he chases his own kicks.

He frequently leads the chase, because his kicks are so well placed he's the only one who knows where they are going. Many times he doesn't manage to wrap up the fullback/winger himself, but the process of avoiding the tackle results in a loss of at least 10 metres on each kick-return. So while Noddy might be listed as missing say, 5 tackles per game doing this, it means the opposition misses out on 50 metres.

Worth it, I reckon...

While I am not saying you are wrong, I would like you to point out 1 kick this year where David peachey was not the first player there.

 

[Jimbo]

Most of Kimmorley's missed tackles occur when he chases his own kicks.

He frequently leads the chase, because his kicks are so well placed he's the only one who knows where they are going. Many times he doesn't manage to wrap up the fullback/winger himself, but the process of avoiding the tackle results in a loss of at least 10 metres on each kick-return. So while Noddy might be listed as missing say, 5 tackles per game doing this, it means the opposition misses out on 50 metres.

Worth it, I reckon...

While I am not saying you are wrong, I would like you to point out 1 kick this year where David peachey was not the first player there.

:shock:

You're saying Peach leads the chase on every single kick we put through?

:?

 

[millersnose]

you have just entered the twilight zone jimbo

good luck :lol:

 

[Jimbo]

I'm boldly going where several people have gone before #-o

 

[NthCronullaLocal]

I think its hard to compare both Kimmorley and sullivan in terms of their defence. Sully since he is playing hooker is in the middle of the park and always has forwards charging at him. Kimmorley defends that little bit wider meaning he doesnt constantly have the big units coming at him. It would be interesting to see how Kimmorley went if he defended in Sullivans position.

I think the main difference for me between the two is Sullivan really gets found out on the goal line in defence mainly through players bigger and stronger than him that just push over the top of him (I can think of 2 or three instances). I think Kimmorley (well i have not noticed anyway) can hold his own on the goal line when compared to Sullivan.

 

[blacktip-reefy]

Most of Kimmorley's missed tackles occur when he chases his own kicks.

He frequently leads the chase, because his kicks are so well placed he's the only one who knows where they are going. Many times he doesn't manage to wrap up the fullback/winger himself, but the process of avoiding the tackle results in a loss of at least 10 metres on each kick-return. So while Noddy might be listed as missing say, 5 tackles per game doing this, it means the opposition misses out on 50 metres.

Worth it, I reckon...

While I am not saying you are wrong, I would like you to point out 1 kick this year where David peachey was not the first player there.

:shock:

You're saying Peach leads the chase on every single kick we put through?

:?

.......yes.
You are talking clearing kicks? Downtowns?
I might be wrong, but I am probably mistaken.
I watch it closely becaause I have this thing with D.Slayer. he says peach is too old & too slow.
I watch peach fly past everyone to be the first there.
My biggest criticsim of Merrit is for not emulating this.
I only asked the question which game(s), which kick(s) because I can't remember them.

 

[blacktip-reefy]

& Millers
I took the time to answer as best I could all of your questions.
Please answer mine.
having such a strong opinion on Sully & in particular his "time off" & defense, what is your opinion of Kimmorleys defense & how do you rate it terms of other NRL 80 minute half backs.

 

[Jimbo]

You are talking clearing kicks? Downtowns?

Both.

Keep an eye on him next game. If he's not there first, he's second, which probably explains why he spends the first couple of tackles in defence catching his breath out wide...

 

[Mr Angry]

Reefmeister,

How many BK type defenders do you think we can we afford to have in one team?

I would put BK, Sully and Aitken in the same pigeon hole here, little guys, who do not lack effort, but will miss.

Naturally you would want none, but realistically every team will have a at least one poor defender, how many can a side afford to have on the field at one team and expect to compete with the big boys?
That for me is the real question in all of this.

I say 2, 1 @ half and 1 @ 5/8.

 

[blacktip-reefy]

Where they play is irrelevant Angry but I agree with your figure.
the defensive structure has changed quite alot over the last few years.
There are defensive patterns that are divided up into teams.
So theoretically it is not impossible to have a half defending on the wing.
the problem with that is latency in switching between attack & defense positions.
So a more realistic approach is to put the smaller guys in one of the L/R sides.
But this can change depending on who they are playing & even change internally during a game to adjust to conditions.
But having said that, if Kurt Gidley wasour half, would he count as a small(he is) with his excellent defensive record?

 

[Jimbo]

the defensive structure has changed quite alot over the last few years.
There are defensive patterns that are divided up into teams.
So theoretically it is not impossible to have a half defending on the wing.

That's true. Parramatta have a prop who spends most of his time on the wing

:lol:

 

[Surely]

I'm boldly going where several people have gone before #-o

ROFL ... It's pointless Jimbo .. or should that be Jim

I think what we basically have here is Blacktips stats are telling him Sullivan is a better player than Kimmorely.... Where as the blatent truth is that Kimmorely is a far better player than Sullivan.

One should be able to watch a game and determine who is playing well and who is a liability, not rely on stats (which are misleading at the best of times)

I for one would rather Kimmorely be in the side and Sullivan be the one injured on the sidelines, I think we would have a lot better chance of winning a game ... and i am sure i am not alone in that opinion.

As i pointed out before ... and to which Blacktip has not replied, Kimmorely looks to put a player over the line, Sullivan looks to put himself over .. as for offloads, if sullivan is leading kimmorely in offloads, but has less than half of Kimmorelys try assists then how good are Sullivans offloads.

Blacktip do u have a stat for pointless offloads ... or are they lumped in with the good ones as well !

 

[blacktip-reefy]

What about this?
Do you have any points?

Offloads are passes to a player in a better position after meeting/beating the defense.
A cut out ball to a player in the clear, like Kimmorley to Bailey counts as a try assist or/& an offload.
If Bailey gets crunched, it counts as nothing.
BK takes the ball to the line, beats the defense passes, irrelevant of result, it counts as an offload.
Elementary stuff.

& where am I saying Sullivan is a better player than Kimmorley?
I think the stupidest person on here would realise that is not the case.

Just ask if there is anything else you dont understand about the game, I'm happy to help.

 

[Jimbo]

Jimbo .. or should that be Jim

Jimbo is good, although my parents are now referred to as 'Mr and Mrs Bo'