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Dragons To Break Away From Illawarra.

muzby

Village Idiot
Staff member
Messages
44,399
That might have worked as an argument, but do you know the 2020 side have had yet another name again? The CC reserves are now called St George-Illawarra Dragons.

Should we petition the NSWRL?
I think so.. Do we know who started the first grade one?

We could get them to start up another one..
 

Old Timer

Coach
Messages
13,771
It's not too bad. Even a few of the old St George supporters see some logic in St George relocating to Wollongong. I don't recall this ever being discussed as an option in 1998. As it turned out, we only stayed at Kogarah for one season of the JV. So in retrospect, the whole thing looks like a bizarre episode without a lot of forethought.

The 'NRL criteria' reasons for leaving Kogarah never really made sense, and we returned to Kogarah in 2003, but we have battled for a 50/50 share ever since.

Interestingly, even when they ditched Kogarah from 1999-2002, we still continued to play some games at the SFS. One could be excused for thinking that the Club want a full relocation but are aware of Wollongong's limitations. Of course, that's assuming they had a plan.

Then throw into the mix that fiasco known as that Right Games Right Venue 'strategy'... a period where I've managed to block most memories.
What then happens to all the existing junior feeder clubs in the St George area?

What do you say to Renown?

Imagine telling people at the junior clubs that have a long heritage with St George & KJO that there future lies solely in Wollongong?

If we turn our back on, deny or destroy that legacy then we will become Illawarra.
 

Walpole

Juniors
Messages
1,898
I see you have conveniently omitted the fact that the side played in 3 grand finals during the 90s as St George and even as STGI were seriously in contention in 1999, 2005-2006 before again being relevant as STGI in 2009-2010.

Contrast this to Illawarra who generally only contested the wooden spoon from the time of their admission into the NRL.

It’s hard to preach unity whilst you and the orange man continually promote division.

Give your collective dribble a break guys.
No, I remember those grand finals well, I was as disappointed as everyone else when we lost them.

Not sure how I'm promoting division. My point is that Dragons fans should embrace the Illawarra region and the JV. If we split with Illawarra then we become like Newtown, a feeder team for whatever club is on the South Coast of NSW, an area far more useful to the NRL than a few suburbs in Sydney.

Unfortunately it's 2020, not the 90s.
 

muzby

Village Idiot
Staff member
Messages
44,399
What then happens to all the existing junior feeder clubs in the St George area?

What do you say to Renown?

Imagine telling people at the junior clubs that have a long heritage with St George & KJO that there future lies solely in Wollongong?

If we turn our back on, deny or destroy that legacy then we will become Illawarra.
That being said, any person actually playing in those clubs has never seen that elusive stand alone St George premiership..

Whilst on the other hand, 100% of all titles won by the club since the start of the JV have included Illawarra- either a Steelers junior side, the mighty cutters or one of the combined St George Illawarra teams.

If course the junior clubs will follow down to Wollongong - they can smell success down there.
 

Willow

Assistant Moderator
Messages
96,089
What then happens to all the existing junior feeder clubs in the St George area?

What do you say to Renown?

Imagine telling people at the junior clubs that have a long heritage with St George & KJO that there future lies solely in Wollongong?

If we turn our back on, deny or destroy that legacy then we will become Illawarra.
lol. You didn't follow my post, imagine my surprise.

At no time have I advocated that the future of St George juniors lie in Wollongong. Were you anywhere near the action when R2K was happening?

FYI, the St George juniors rely mostly on volunteers. The development officers (all 2 of them I recall) aren't going to disappear. They are from the NRL, so work that out. Apart from the volunteers, the support for the juniors comes from the NSWRL, the NRL and St George DRLFC.

Hey, you got bored and and needed to start another argument, I get it.
 

Willow

Assistant Moderator
Messages
96,089
That being said, any person actually playing in those clubs has never seen that elusive stand alone St George premiership..

Whilst on the other hand, 100% of all titles won by the club since the start of the JV have included Illawarra- either a Steelers junior side, the mighty cutters or one of the combined St George Illawarra teams.

If course the junior clubs will follow down to Wollongong - they can smell success down there.
I'll give you this, your argument is on par with OT's argument.
 

Old Timer

Coach
Messages
13,771
lol. You didn't follow my post, imagine my surprise.

At no time have I advocated that the future of St George juniors lie in Wollongong. Were you anywhere near the action when R2K was happening?

FYI, the St George juniors rely mostly on volunteers. The development officers (all 2 of them I recall) aren't going to disappear. They are from the NRL, so work that out. Apart from the volunteers, the support for the juniors comes from the NSWRL, the NRL and St George DRLFC.

Hey, you got bored and and needed to start another argument, I get it.
Awfully testy this morning Willow and the notion I am looking for argument is ludicrous on your part.

I didn't suggest that you advocated it but as you had included a reference to potentially some old die hard supporters thinking Wollongong was OK as home I asked a legitimate question as I am genuinely curious.

No I wasn't anywhere near the action whenR2K was happening but that doesn't mean I am any more or any less passionate about anything.

No doubt you have superior knowledge on many aspects so I defer to that and cop a backhander and some arrogance for my trouble hardly fair on your part Willow.

When I played junior football in the St George area trying to get your way to KJO was instilled in you as something to aspire to.

I am concerned if KJO doesn't exist and the club is deeply rooted in Wollongong then that passion for St George might be lost and it would be easier for some juniors to play for other junior clubs that ultimately feed elsewhere.

I would hate to think that long existing ties with junior clubs could be threatened by no Sydney presence of the main club.
 

Willow

Assistant Moderator
Messages
96,089
Why so mean?
I cannot lie.

Talking about who was alive to see past premierships is a lame argument. Comparing maths is even lamer.

Do you think anyone is alive who saw 50uff$ win in 1908? That doesn't stop them embracing it as part for their heritage. How about finding someone alive who saw Dally Messenger play? That hasn't stopped the League running the Dally M Awards every year. How about the Clive Churchill Medal? Or the Premiership trophy featuring Norm Provan and Arthur Summons?

I hope you get the gist, the game we watch today is standing on the shoulders of those who came before.

You can't put a value on these things. And to break it down into some mathematical argument is just laughable.

We should take a leaf out the poms' book. They proudly embrace their heritage. For example, Hull FC, established in 1865 - that's 30 years before the northern union broke away. Try telling them that it can only be calculated by how many people saw it. You'd get laughed out of the room.
 

muzby

Village Idiot
Staff member
Messages
44,399
I cannot lie.

Talking about who was alive to see past premierships is a lame argument. Comparing maths is even lamer.

Do you think anyone is alive who saw 50uff$ win in 1908? That doesn't stop them embracing it as part for their heritage. How about finding someone alive who saw Dally Messenger play? That hasn't stopped the League running the Dally M Awards every year. How about the Clive Churchill Medal? Or the Premiership trophy featuring Norm Provan and Arthur Summons?

I hope you get the gist, the game we watch today is standing on the shoulders of those who came before.

You can't put a value on these things. And to break it down into some mathematical argument is just laughable.

We should take a leaf out the poms' book. They proudly embrace their heritage. For example, Hull FC, established in 1865 - that's 30 years before the northern union broke away. Try telling them that it can only be calculated by how many people saw it. You'd get laughed out of the room.
But without maths you can’t do even the simplest of things, like counting to 16 premierships..

Even if we strip out numbers from the argument, the fact of the matter remains all titles won post the JV has been either STGI or just straight out I.. No straight out STG..
 

Willow

Assistant Moderator
Messages
96,089
But without maths you can’t do even the simplest of things, like counting to 16 premierships..

Even if we strip out numbers from the argument, the fact of the matter remains all titles won post the JV has been either STGI or just straight out I.. No straight out STG..
Gosh... so it's the straight out vibe?
 

Old Timer

Coach
Messages
13,771
That being said, any person actually playing in those clubs has never seen that elusive stand alone St George premiership..

Whilst on the other hand, 100% of all titles won by the club since the start of the JV have included Illawarra- either a Steelers junior side, the mighty cutters or one of the combined St George Illawarra teams.

If course the junior clubs will follow down to Wollongong - they can smell success down there.
muzby,
I have to apologise that I haven't been quite at my best the last few days but without going into detail (thanks to those that sent best wishes) there are some obvious reasons for that.

This morning I had a rethink about your posts and assumptions re the St George stand alone premierships.

Some nice smoke and mirrors on your part as you played around with the numbers and %'s.

With St George no longer a stand alone club after 1998 it is obvious since that date nobody was ever going to see one so your numbers were skewed from the start.

Therefore it is only fair to remove those people who were denied the opportunity of seeing St George win a premiership in its own right.

If my earlier premise that 5 years of age is reasonably fair to say one is a "supporter' and understands footy then that means that 1993 becomes the top end cut off.

The last stand alone premiership was 1979 so therefore applying the 5 year analogy means 1974 becomes the bottom end cut off.

On that basis with 1993 being the cut off for eligibility and 1974 - 1993 being the drought then approximating that only 25% of those that could have seen a St George stand alone premiership actually didn't see one.

So 75% of those eligible Australians actually did see 1 if not more stand alone St George premierships.

Now no doubt you will try to dispel all this and again try to be tricky but the one undeniable fact is that there are a lot more people that have seen a stand alone St George premiership than ever seen anything stand alone out of the Illawarra win a 1st grade RL premiership.
 

Old Timer

Coach
Messages
13,771
See? You'll even argue about that.

f**k, you're a funny fella.
So I have to accept your interpretation of my post as being argumentative even though it was never such?

Then any defence or explanation offered is then also construed as also being argumentative.

Perhaps you are the "funny fella" and looking for the argument as I was never looking for one and to date have see no answers from a person who is obviously knowledgeable on a subject where perfectly reasonable questions were asked.

Any reasonable person would have seen my post in the correct light.
 

Forbes Creek Dragons

First Grade
Messages
5,002
No, I remember those grand finals well, I was as disappointed as everyone else when we lost them.

Not sure how I'm promoting division. My point is that Dragons fans should embrace the Illawarra region and the JV. If we split with Illawarra then we become like Newtown, a feeder team for whatever club is on the South Coast of NSW, an area far more useful to the NRL than a few suburbs in Sydney.

Unfortunately it's 2020, not the 90s.
Unfortunately for many reasons not just the footy
 

muzby

Village Idiot
Staff member
Messages
44,399
muzby,
I have to apologise that I haven't been quite at my best the last few days but without going into detail (thanks to those that sent best wishes) there are some obvious reasons for that.

This morning I had a rethink about your posts and assumptions re the St George stand alone premierships.

Some nice smoke and mirrors on your part as you played around with the numbers and %'s.

With St George no longer a stand alone club after 1998 it is obvious since that date nobody was ever going to see one so your numbers were skewed from the start.

Therefore it is only fair to remove those people who were denied the opportunity of seeing St George win a premiership in its own right.

If my earlier premise that 5 years of age is reasonably fair to say one is a "supporter' and understands footy then that means that 1993 becomes the top end cut off.

The last stand alone premiership was 1979 so therefore applying the 5 year analogy means 1974 becomes the bottom end cut off.

On that basis with 1993 being the cut off for eligibility and 1974 - 1993 being the drought then approximating that only 25% of those that could have seen a St George stand alone premiership actually didn't see one.

So 75% of those eligible Australians actually did see 1 if not more stand alone St George premierships.

Now no doubt you will try to dispel all this and again try to be tricky but the one undeniable fact is that there are a lot more people that have seen a stand alone St George premiership than ever seen anything stand alone out of the Illawarra win a 1st grade RL premiership.
No smoke and mirrors..

You’re just trying to cut down the numbers (sorry Willow) to find a subset of the population to try and find relevance.

The fact still remains - more half the current Australian population has never seen a stand-alone St George premiership.

This is due to a number of factors, including performance from 1980 onwards, as well as JV from 1999, plus general things like babies being born & new migration since 1979..

But.. It’s still a minority.

And it has nothing to do with trying to say Illawarra is better. I’m pro JV, not a separatist. That’s a comprehension fail on your behalf.
 

Old Timer

Coach
Messages
13,771
No smoke and mirrors..

You’re just trying to cut down the numbers (sorry Willow) to find a subset of the population to try and find relevance.

The fact still remains - more half the current Australian population has never seen a stand-alone St George premiership.

This is due to a number of factors, including performance from 1980 onwards, as well as JV from 1999, plus general things like babies being born & new migration since 1979..

But.. It’s still a minority.
Nice try muzby but you can't include people that were denied the opportunity.

Your trying to create a larger cross section that doesn't exist in the parameters of the question asked.

Just like in a game of RL if the defender was denied the opportunity regardless of whether he could or could not have stopped the try the try is disallowed.
 
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