Enough is enough

[Ben]

because some players are heavily overpaid...and it looks like newcastle isnt as desirable maybe...carl webb chose north queensland over newcastle

 

[Alex28]

how long do we keep signing O'Davis? what loyalty have we not shown him? he should have been shown the f**king door in 1998 when he let the entire club down by taking an illegal substance.

he was told last year that this is his last year. he has played at less than full fitness not just for the club, but because he had a $30,000 bonus riding on it. we could have put Salkeld on the field and given him some experience over the last few weeks...but no...we have to keep looking after O'Davis.

We have looked after him for long enough. When has he put the club in front of his own interests?

 

[Bring it home Knights]

remember when he played a huge part in winning us the grand final in 97. Remember all the time he's played injured for the knights when a lot of other players would have gone off and missed games for. He has done a lot for this club.

 

[Alex28]

20 weeks he let his club down. he has spoken out against his club publically this year.

where is his loyalty? how short is his memory? how about he puts the club in front of his own interests?

any way...the decision has been made for him

 

[antonius]

Our recruitment of late has been stupid, why aren't we signing good young players like Willie Tonga instead of re-signing has beens like Hughes for 5 times as much money.

I think the reason is two-fold

1. We have a lot of our cap money tied up in a few under performing former stars. So we don't quite have the funds available

2. This season we missed signing a couple of players who I reckon would've been invaluable to the club and the reason we missed them was because our club was sitting on it's hands waiting to see the end of the Johns re-signing circus. He has a lot to answer for in that department. Look at Nathan Hindemarsh he's re-signed with Parra one year early when he could've done a Johns and waited till next season then hawked himself around for the best price. He's saved the Eels all the same sort of grief we went through this year, unlike us the Eels know where they stand as far as money goes because their priority signing did the right thing by his club.

 

[miladi]

I am sorry, Antonius, and I know you and I are never going to agree on this, however I don't blame Andrew Johns for the club failing to sign others. He had the right to wait until after June 30th if he had wanted to see what other clubs might offer. He didn't make the Newcastle management wait to see if he signed or not. They made that choice. They could have signed others and then said, sorry Joey we only have x amount to spend, take it or not. (then the outside sponsorship could have been arranged as it was). They made the choice to wait and overspend. Johns had every right to take it.

 

[antonius]

I am sorry, Antonius, and I know you and I are never going to agree on this, however I don't blame Andrew Johns for the club failing to sign others. He had the right to wait until after June 30th if he had wanted to see what other clubs might offer. He didn't make the Newcastle management wait to see if he signed or not. They made that choice. They could have signed others and then said, sorry Joey we only have x amount to spend, take it or not. (then the outside sponsorship could have been arranged as it was). They made the choice to wait and overspend. Johns had every right to take it.

Sure he had every right to do it, I'm not saying he didn't. What I am saying is whilst he moaned and groaned about us losing Kennedy, Tahu and c/o, and supposedly tried to talk Kennedy into staying, he didn't do anything to make it any easier. Unlike Hindemarsh who means as much to the Eels as apparently Johns means to us. What I'm saying is Johns showed the club no consideration, where-as Hindemarsh did with his club. Whilst Johns stuffed around for the best part of 9 months and ended up taking what he was originaly offered anyway, with a little $50,000 sweetener added. He played this club like a violin, and they were stupid enough to go along with it. Johns knew the grief his inaction was causing, the club was weak to allow it to happen yes, but in the end that is why we missed signing some other players that were available, Johns has to shoulder some of the responsibilty for that. I'll predict now, that some time next year people here will be saying the same thing. Because effectively we are back in the same boat we were at the start of the year minus a few of our rep players, at the moment I'm really struggling to see where next year is going to be any better than this year, and I bet I'm not alone in that feeling.

 

[Nuffy]

I think to be fair the timing of the Johns decision was irrelevant.

They would have assigned a top end figure and left it at that. Then they could have moved on to BK etc.

Make an allowance of 400k for Joey and then start talking to the others.

By most accounts we offered Tahu around 250K, I will always wonder what would have happened if they went to him last year and said "your a gun player, we would like to upgrade your contract for the next 3 years" I feel that he wouldn't have gone anywhere. He only became obsessed with money after all the media hysteria earlier this year.

We need to be extremely proactive with the players we want to keep, therefore, if the club hasn't signed both Danny and Abes before next season starts then we are an embarassment.

And plenty of the players that are currently on big money should be getting ready for a pay cut.

Plus the club needs to draw up a complete list of players off contract in the NRL and prepare a strategy for recruitment as required.

The embarassing scenes this year when we were playing catchup well after the June 30 deadline should never be repeated.

We need pace and aggression and I hope that the club is looking for those pieces right now.

Just another comment, has anyone else noticed that Reynoldson has been pretty much injured since he signed with us, nice omen and how good as Webb been playing, he may be the one that got away!!!

 

[Kaz]

I am sorry, Antonius, and I know you and I are never going to agree on this, however I don't blame Andrew Johns for the club failing to sign others. He had the right to wait until after June 30th if he had wanted to see what other clubs might offer. He didn't make the Newcastle management wait to see if he signed or not. They made that choice.

What other NRL showed interest in Joey. :roll:

Union 'were' interested in him.

And what a surprise his manager has quite a few Union Players on his books.

Joey knew the Knights management would stop most signings until he signed.

They should have signed the up & comers in the mean time instead of waiting until Joey made up his mind when he would finally sign the contract.

 

[borat]

I am sorry, Antonius, and I know you and I are never going to agree on this, however I don't blame Andrew Johns for the club failing to sign others. He had the right to wait until after June 30th if he had wanted to see what other clubs might offer. He didn't make the Newcastle management wait to see if he signed or not. They made that choice.

What other NRL showed interest in Joey. :roll:

Union 'were' interested in him.

And what a surprise his manager has quite a few Union Players on his books.

Joey knew the Knights management would stop most signings until he signed.

They should have signed the up & comers in the mean time instead of waiting until Joey made up his mind when he would finally sign the contract.

I think the up & commers were as interested in waiting to see what he did because if Joey leaves there is a stack of money there for upgraded contracts.

I think the management had no choice but to hold out for Joey. Joey is the David Beckham of the NRL in terms of what he brings to the Knights off the field. With the club's finances the way they are I think the management realised that if Joey left not only would they loose their chief playmaker but the man most likely to pull in the sponsorship dollars and fill the ground on game day. There is such a belief out there that the Knights can't win without Joey that attracting new sponsors to a team minus Joey would be very difficult.

They knew Joey was screwing them over and setting up a auction between themselves and Union but really couldn't afford to do much about it.

 

[antonius]

I think the up & commers were as interested in waiting to see what he did because if Joey leaves there is a stack of money there for upgraded contracts.

I think the management had no choice but to hold out for Joey. Joey is the David Beckham of the NRL in terms of what he brings to the Knights off the field. With the club's finances the way they are I think the management realised that if Joey left not only would they loose their chief playmaker but the man most likely to pull in the sponsorship dollars and fill the ground on game day. There is such a belief out there that the Knights can't win without Joey that attracting new sponsors to a team minus Joey would be very difficult.

They knew Joey was screwing them over and setting up a auction between themselves and Union but really couldn't afford to do much about it.

That says a lot about him doesn't it?
Look I realise he is dollars for the club in terms of off field sponsorships etc, and up to a point who wants to stay and who wants to leave, but really who did we end up keeping because he re-signed? Nobody that I can think of. As far as dollars in the coffers go all I can say is we want to hope he stays fit next year because his attraction is an ongoing proposition is starting to falter.

 

[borat]

I think to be fair the timing of the Johns decision was irrelevant.

They would have assigned a top end figure and left it at that. Then they could have moved on to BK etc.

Make an allowance of 400k for Joey and then start talking to the others.

By most accounts we offered Tahu around 250K, I will always wonder what would have happened if they went to him last year and said "your a gun player, we would like to upgrade your contract for the next 3 years" I feel that he wouldn't have gone anywhere. He only became obsessed with money after all the media hysteria earlier this year.

We need to be extremely proactive with the players we want to keep, therefore, if the club hasn't signed both Danny and Abes before next season starts then we are an embarassment.

And plenty of the players that are currently on big money should be getting ready for a pay cut.

Plus the club needs to draw up a complete list of players off contract in the NRL and prepare a strategy for recruitment as required.

The embarassing scenes this year when we were playing catchup well after the June 30 deadline should never be repeated.

We need pace and aggression and I hope that the club is looking for those pieces right now.

Just another comment, has anyone else noticed that Reynoldson has been pretty much injured since he signed with us, nice omen and how good as Webb been playing, he may be the one that got away!!!

I don't think reading stories in the Herald about how Tahu was such a low priority and he is only a winger and expendable did much good for Tahu's confidence to remain at the club. Particularly when Tahu believes he is a centre.

I don't think you could consider signing a back a year in advance. It could really come back to haunt you. As pace is such an important assett one serious injury finish a career. So you sign up Tahu for another 3 years and he does his cruciate ligament and never regains his speed. You are then left with one expensive slow winger for the next 3 years. The other problem is if their form drops away dramatically then you copping it in the press all year about how you have committed all this money to a dud before the contract even commences.

Buderus however is one player they should be talking to right now.

I really think of all the players available on the market this year there was not that much quality. Teams that have performed poorly this year want a big signature to prove to their supporters that they are doing something so there is a desperate scramble for what is available.

And apart from a few players like Kite, Monaghan & Roberts all thats left are bench players like Pritchard and Webb. So the bidding war commences and Webb goes to NQ for pretty big money but he surely is a gamble. Yes he is playing well now but what about the first half of the year. At the end of the year there will be a long list of players without a contract who can be picked up on the cheap and thats where the real finds will come. Willie Tonga has to be the buy of the year becuase the Dogs wouldn't have paid very much for him and what a return they have gotten for him. Personally when I heard he was going to the dogs I thought he was a Neville and the Dogs would suffer in the centres. Now they have probably the best backline going around and I beleive they did it on a restricted budget due to finals bonuses given out from the previous season.

 

[Swampy]

I'll throw this question at you all.Say if the Knights had signed Willie Tonga instead of the Dogs do you reckon the Knights could have developed him into the player that he is today?In other words do the Knights coaching staff have the ability to develop players that show good qualities into an outstanding talent just like the Dogs did with Willie Tonga.Personally I think not.

 

[roopy]

I'll throw this question at you all.Say if the Knights had signed Willie Tonga instead of the Dogs do you reckon the Knights could have developed him into the player that he is today?In other words do the Knights coaching staff have the ability to develop players that show good qualities into an outstanding talent just like the Dogs did with Willie Tonga.Personally I think not.

I actually think Michael Hagan has shown he is very good at developing players.
He turned Rudder from a fringe second rower into a fair 5/8.
He turned Abraham from a big and slow fullback into a good forward.
He has mucked Kurt Gidley around, but he has taught him to play several positions.
He recognised the talents of guys like Todd Lowrie, Riley Brown and Michael Ennis and blended them into the firstgrade side.


I think our lower grades have gone backwards since Burraston left. We should get him back - the list of juniors he helped to find their talents is endless. Having said that, I think we are developing young guys like Tilse and Snowden really well. They are not being rushed, which is important.

 

[Swampy]

Well you haven't really answered my question in regards to Willie Tonga.Yeah well Roopy with the players that you have mentioned which one of them could you honestly predict to play Origin within the foreseeable future.Don't get me started on how the Knights treat there younger players.Talking about Flegg I can tell you there have been a few of the younger ones brought up from SG Ball who have been well and truly the thrown in at the deep end and full credit to them in way they were forced to play to get a look in.Watch the games closely and you'll see what I mean.

 

[roopy]

Well you haven't really answered my question in regards to Willie Tonga.Yeah well Roopy with the players that you have mentioned which one of them could you honestly predict to play Origin within the foreseeable future.Don't get me started on how the Knights treat there younger players.Talking about Flegg I can tell you there have been a few of the younger ones brought up from SG Ball who have been well and truly the thrown in at the deep end and full credit to them in way they were forced to play to get a look in.Watch the games closely and you'll see what I mean.

Rip Taylor is a coach who knows how he wants people to play I'd say. He has always had the reputation of being a 'controlling' coach.
Anyway, I do agree that a lot of our boys have benefitted a lot from playing under other coaches. Steve Simpson is one who improved out of sight after his first game of country origin under Brian Smith. He went from being a very safe and conservative 'bash and barge' type forward to really looking to create things. Tahu really improved under Smith as well, as did John Morris (Smith is the best at finding new skills in players and developing them).

Steve Burraston was a great developer of juniors. In 2001 he took an ordinary side and improved them over the season to nearly pinch the Premier League title - Guys like Kidley, Morris, Franze, Anthony Quinn, Matt Petersen, Neil Sweeney etc etc all came on heaps that season. Since Burraston left we have probably only won about 10 games in Premier League, and a lot of promising players like Tyrie, Bates, Luke Dureau, Shaun Wallace and heaps of others have gone nowhere under Mal Graham.
Burraston was brought in by Warren Ryan who saw him as a great developer of junior talent - and I think he proved himself at the Knights.
I think Graham should go and Taylor should move up to Premier League.

 

[Ben]

well the coaching staff doesnt entirely turn a good player into a great player...it would more likely be the players next to you that do more...the coach isnt on the field playing is he? so i would think, the other players such as anasta and sherwin would have turned tonga into what he is now...its the experience on the field that turns you into a better player

 

[Swampy]

Ben so what you are saying is that Tonga turned up at the Dogs and Steve Folks just left it up to Sherwin and Anasta develop him.Thats interesting.Why have coaches then?So who in turn made Sherwin and Anasta into the players they are now?Yes other experienced players do have an impact on the development of younger players but by far and away the coach and his staff would have the biggest impact and also big dose of natural ability doesn't go astray.

 

[Swampy]

Ben so what you are saying is that Tonga turned up at the Dogs and Steve Folks just left it up to Sherwin and Anasta develop him.Thats interesting.Why have coaches then?So who in turn made Sherwin and Anasta into the players they are now?Yes other experienced players do have an impact on the development of younger players but by far and away the coach and his staff would have the biggest impact and also a big dose of natural ability doesn't go astray.How often do you see players playing at a club and are going ordinary then switch clubs and then play the house down.It's just some players react differently with different coaches and different coaching techniques.Willie Tonga is a good example.Brian Smith couldn't do anything with him and so let him go.Steve Folks saw something there and now the rest is history.

 

[Alex28]

Ben - that has to be one of the most rediculous comments I have seen on this board (there have been plenty to pick from!).

Ball and Flegg players - their coaching will show what sort of future they will have in the big league. To say those players learn from others they play with is rediculous - they are all still learning!