What's new
The Front Row Forums

Register a free account today to become a member of the world's largest Rugby League discussion forum! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

expansion and the groundless "heartland loss" ideal

mark123

Juniors
Messages
828
This is a negative effect concept that abounds in rugby league enmass.

Its primary concern atm is in sydney.

People reason that for instance, if you took manly and shut them down, moved them to the central coast, all of a sudden league would die a horrible death on the entire north shore.

Yet look at manly - I am sorry to single them out, but in this example, the scenario's it offers are more numerous. They are a club with very few members, an old and possibly the worst stadium in sydney, even though they made the GF last year....

I have a feeling that rl does not support its expansion clubs like AFL does. In afl they give concessions to make the new team ale to attract big players, be successful in the region, a new stadium/upgrade.

But no one in melbourne or indeed an afl forum member will say that melbourne afl will die in a particular area because no team plays there that once did.

A team in the top flight of the nrl is not a be-all and end-all of support for the code in an area.

This is sydney's rl's largest mistake and the perception from certain fans.

Not only do you have all this going on in rl amongst the fans, you also have a case whereby new teams are not supported. Unless of course you are talking about news ltd supporting the storm and cowboys and Canberra.

That was one thing which was done right - yet people talked ill of that at every opportunity.

I have come to the conclusion (and i mean no disrespect) but very few people on this board have any clue about what needs to be done/what can be done.

If you got rid of one sydney team and put them on the central coast (at this stage not contemplating if they would be supported), do you really think that its going to matter to sydney RL?

Do you really think that the true few thousand manly supporters are keeping the game alive in sydney?

Where the AFL will try to keep negative press to a minimum about a situation as such, in rl the press will blow it up and thrive off the fans negative views and fearful outlooks.

To me I look at the situation and shake my head with shame. RL is shooting itself in the foot.

To me, true manly (still using them as an example but it could be anyone really) fans may number less than 10,000. Thats hard to deny. But if you had a team on the central coast, true CC fans may number in the tens of thousands.

In this sense (an actuality or fact because its hard to deny the logic) RL is a self-limiting beast. And this feeling is perpetuated by the fans attitudes, the administrations reluctance to take a risk great of small and support that risk until its completion, and a media hell-bent on feeding off this negative feeling to sell papers via fear reporting.

Its ridiculous to say that if manly was not there, that the north shore junior leagues could not be looked after and made to flourish, that rl would cease to exist on the north shore....maybe its not the absence of a rl team there that would cause league to die there, maybe its the absence of support for that region: its just the wrong perception to think that league would die a horrible death without a nrl team there....it would not. These people have access to transport and if their support for league is genuine, and of a level thats of any use to the game, then they would support their second teams.
 

eels_fan_01

Bench
Messages
3,470
On AFL.

-I hate that they give concessions and if that happened in rugby league id be f**king furious if one of those teams with the concessions won the comp.

On Central Coast.

-I dont want anymore NSW teams, its not far for them to attend a rugby league game, so to me that area being "lost" doesnt mean much compared to a whole state like in SA or WA or are whole country if you awarded Wellington a franchise.

On Sydney being "the main concern".

-Crowds are not the be and and all of sport. If you want to go by ratings then Melbourne are in trouble in terms of the limited ratings they get there compared to what Sydney gets for rugby league.

On relegation.

-If they are stubborn pricks than they wont watch rugby league again, more than not would still support rugby league but many could be lost.
 

Butters

Bench
Messages
3,899
On AFL.

-I hate that they give concessions and if that happened in rugby league id be f**king furious if one of those teams with the concessions won the comp.

On Central Coast.

-I dont want anymore NSW teams, its not far for them to attend a rugby league game, so to me that area being "lost" doesnt mean much compared to a whole state like in SA or WA or are whole country if you awarded Wellington a franchise.

On Sydney being "the main concern".

-Crowds are not the be and and all of sport. If you want to go by ratings then Melbourne are in trouble in terms of the limited ratings they get there compared to what Sydney gets for rugby league.

On relegation.

-If they are stubborn pricks than they wont watch rugby league again, more than not would still support rugby league but many could be lost.

Channel 9 f**ks over Melbourne non stop when it comes to broadcasting League. Terrible comparison
 

Brycey

Juniors
Messages
2,110
Nth Qld is no longer owned by News Ltd.

As for the heartland debate I agree to a certain extent, Sydney has too many teams, probably 2-3 over what we should have. 6 would be a good number.

Tribalism in Sydney is appealing to fans, but clubs need to learn to market that and build themselves up cause atm most Sydney clubs are in rabbles. Western teams with huge populations at their doorstep should be able to sell out their local stadiums no matter how well they are playing.

I honestly think that Manly should go from Sydney, it seems with all their success they are still one of the smallest supported Sydney clubs and their relocation would have little impact on the rest of Sydney.
 

manlyone

Juniors
Messages
25
While in principle your argument is sound you have picked a poor example in Manly. Since the Bears departed juniour league has fallen away dramatically in the North sydney region. your argument that if Manly relocated there would be no effect in support is ridiculous - Manly fans would not support a relocated team to the Central Coast and rugby union would be "given" free reign from the bridge to the Central Coast.

All grounds for all major sports are only improved as a result of government funding. The disgracefull state of Brookvale oval is a direct result of unfair distribution of government funds (or corruption). That Leicchardt (3 games a year), Cambelltown (3 or 4? games a year), Kogarah (6 games) can receive the funding they have while Brookvale gets nothing has more to do with Govts improving their chances of re-election than the efficient allocation of govt money. If this type of thing happened in a third world country it would be branded as typical second rate corruption and yet nothing is said in NSW (I guess we are used to it).

If you wanted to apply your argument it would be better used on the sharks or the roosters / rabbits as the juniors of the removed team could be taken over by a close neighbour. Even then, you are dreaming if you think supporters would accept it.
 

Deanoknights

Juniors
Messages
25
:(
On AFL.

-I hate that they give concessions and if that happened in rugby league id be f**king furious if one of those teams with the concessions won the comp.

I heard back when the Storm come into the comp they did have concessions of about 1.5mill over cap. Maybe it was just a rumour after they won their second year in OR maybe it's a Melbourne thing ha ..
 

Brycey

Juniors
Messages
2,110
ManlyOne, I think as a long term prospect Manly should move up to Sunshine Coast on a permanent basis, already agreeing to take games up there now.

Noone is going to say that Manly fans will not support it, but the people of the Sunshine Coast probably would. I think the pro's outweigh the cons.
 

oldmancraigy

Coach
Messages
11,853
On AFL.


On Central Coast.

-I dont want anymore NSW teams, its not far for them to attend a rugby league game, so to me that area being "lost" doesnt mean much compared to a whole state like in SA or WA or are whole country if you awarded Wellington a franchise.

You gotta build strong local bases before expanding...

The game needs to 'take a hit' in Sydney --> I agree that one club should move to the Central Coast. As long as it's not Manly, that club picks up 20k supporters in that area.

That then 'clears space' in Sydney for the remaining clubs to develop slighter larger support bases; which then brings in more revenue, which means we can increase the salaray cap and pay the players or reward player loyalty etc.

The Central Coast IS close enough for people to 'drive and see a game' but who are they supporting... It's a redundant argument in trying to defend Sydney teams, because ALL those teams are closer than the CC to each other, so based on the 'being close enough to see a game' argument we'd need only 1 team in Sydney (if you can't see the illogicity of the argument...)

[Along with one team moving to the Central Coast, St George Illawarra should relocate full time to Wollongong, but that's a whole other debate.....]

7 clubs in Sydney would still be plenty.....
 

Blind Freddy

Juniors
Messages
830
How about this for an idea...

No teams move or relocate (maybe the dragons to Wollongong), all the teams that are struggling pull their fingers out and turn things around. We have the game grow so we can add more teams wherever we want whether they are in NSW or not, if they can sustain a team we can add one there.

At the moment its like the NRL has a bunch of Ferrari's sitting in the garage waiting to go, but they are stuck with their beat up Model T Ford's that can't drive them to the garages to get the flashy new sports cars.
 

realredhillboy

Juniors
Messages
906
How about this for an idea...

No teams move or relocate (maybe the dragons to Wollongong), all the teams that are struggling pull their fingers out and turn things around. We have the game grow so we can add more teams wherever we want whether they are in NSW or not, if they can sustain a team we can add one there.

At the moment its like the NRL has a bunch of Ferrari's sitting in the garage waiting to go, but they are stuck with their beat up Model T Ford's that can't drive them to the garages to get the flashy new sports cars.
brilliant post
 

flamin

Juniors
Messages
2,046
This is a negative effect concept that abounds in rugby league enmass.

Its primary concern atm is in sydney.

People reason that for instance, if you took manly and shut them down, moved them to the central coast, all of a sudden league would die a horrible death on the entire north shore.

Yet look at manly - I am sorry to single them out, but in this example, the scenario's it offers are more numerous. They are a club with very few members, an old and possibly the worst stadium in sydney, even though they made the GF last year....


A team in the top flight of the nrl is not a be-all and end-all of support for the code in an area.

This is sydney's rl's largest mistake and the perception from certain fans.


Time and experience has shown that this perception is true, whether it be kicking clubs out or merging. Relocating has a similar effect, though not as severe.
 

t-ba

Post Whore
Messages
58,707
I honestly think that Manly should go from Sydney, it seems with all their success they are still one of the smallest supported Sydney clubs and their relocation would have little impact on the rest of Sydney.

What "Successes" is that exactly?

Believe it or not, attendances show that we've been one of the best drawing Sydney Clubs since the late 1960's.

Playing out of an Archaic hole, we've managed 15k for the last three seasons, whilst enjoying a period of relative decentness in the last decade. By way of comparison, Brisbane had trouble drawing 20k to ANZ stadium even though they were winning premierships like it was buying some groceries in the late 1990's and early 2000's.

Manly simply needs a better stadium. The really dark years show that we've got about 10,000 loyal fans who are willing to turn up to Brookvale Oval (Which is a lot more of a stretch than the SFS), which is more than enough to build on.

To the person who said League hasn't died on the North Shore, get a clue. League on the Lower North Shore has fallen to pieces since the Bears dropped out of the comp. There's 2 clubs from about 5 in the late 1990's and about 8 from the late 1980's. Even a powerful club like Hornsby on the Upper North Shore has trouble fielding sides and Hills Hawks covers the area that about 3 clubs did a decadeago.
 

Brutus

Referee
Messages
26,335
On AFL.

Central Coast

-I dont want anymore NSW teams, its not far for them to attend a rugby league game, so to me that area being "lost" doesnt mean much compared to a whole state like in SA or WA or are whole country if you awarded Wellington a franchise.

The Sydney media really sh*t me with this one. The standard line that the people of the CC or any other area will simply jump on the bandwagon of another code just because they don't have a team is a ludicrious.

The Central Coast has been a league stronghold for years without a team and that will continue to be the case. They don't have far to travel to see NRL games anyway, in fact they get one in their own backyard this weekend.

I don't see any AFL stronghold areas suddenly becoming fans of another sport just because they don't have team in the top flight comp and the same should apply to league.
 

t-ba

Post Whore
Messages
58,707
I don't see any AFL stronghold areas suddenly becoming fans of another sport just because they don't have team in the top flight comp and the same should apply to league.

If we had an administration that was interested in holding on to its market share, then yes, it wouldn't be a worry. As it is, we're half controlled by a clueless rabble and half controlled by an evil corporate empire.

Considering the size of Gosford, the Mariners crowds have to be a slight worry.

Super League also gave everyone an odd sense of entitlement, that makes reducing the number of clubs in Sydney a dangerous business.
 

Brutus

Referee
Messages
26,335
If we had an administration that was interested in holding on to its market share, then yes, it wouldn't be a worry. As it is, we're half controlled by a clueless rabble and half controlled by an evil corporate empire.

Considering the size of Gosford, the Mariners crowds have to be a slight worry.

Super League also gave everyone an odd sense of entitlement, that makes reducing the number of clubs in Sydney a dangerous business.

The media certainly don't help the situation in Sydney/NSW.
 

t-ba

Post Whore
Messages
58,707
The media certainly don't help the situation in Sydney/NSW.

No, they don't. And they have a remarkable power over public perception. We've been cast as a dying game in the New South Wales media despite all indicators showing otherwise.

I'm honestly of the opinion it's because the Media in Sydney is largely controlled by a clique of North Shore types who nominally supported the Bears (but never really followed RL) who are hellbent on promoting anything but Rugby League and Mexican immigrants hell bent on promoting flogball.

That's actually one decent thing about Queensland. They're very positive about the game.

Whatever happens though, the Northern Suburbs need a side. Medium term, the Central Coast needs its own side. This wouldn't even be a matter for debate if North Sydney didn't fall to pieces a decade ago.
 

Hanscholo

Bench
Messages
4,818
Lets look at the expansion teams in the NRL from 1988 onwards:

Newcastle - Two premierships, constant top 4 side, well supported.
Brisbane - lol...
Melbourne - Two premierships, several final series, well supported
Gold Coast - first entity failed thru bad management, second is going well and is looking like another Melbourne.
Nth QLD - Played in a GF, constant Semi finalist, well supported.
Auckland - ditto

Im not sure how we are doing any disservice to our expansion clubs? They are WAY more succesful in the short term than any AFL side. Melbourne won an NRL premiership in their 2nd year ffs.
 

Knight87

Juniors
Messages
2,181
So, do you think Manly should relocate or not? I think the Sharks are a stronger candidate, considering they haven't won anything.
 

Big-Steve

Juniors
Messages
663
No, they don't. And they have a remarkable power over public perception. We've been cast as a dying game in the New South Wales media despite all indicators showing otherwise.

I'm honestly of the opinion it's because the Media in Sydney is largely controlled by a clique of North Shore types who nominally supported the Bears (but never really followed RL) who are hellbent on promoting anything but Rugby League and Mexican immigrants hell bent on promoting flogball.

That's actually one decent thing about Queensland. They're very positive about the game.

Whatever happens though, the Northern Suburbs need a side. Medium term, the Central Coast needs its own side. This wouldn't even be a matter for debate if North Sydney didn't fall to pieces a decade ago.
I don't know if it is a conspiricy really but IMO it is the media siding with the NRL on most issues Partiularly when it is an issue that fans want resolved and the NRL does not want it.

They will always side with News particularly the News press because they fell more alined with them and have more respect for them than for their readers and particulaly Rugby League Fans.

Hadley is a good example - if it's an issue that fans bring up that requires major changes to the NRL and the NRL say no he will support them, eg South readmission and the Northern Eagles Hadley strongly supported the NRL on these issues.

Independent investagative sports journalism is virtually non existant these days.
 
Top